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Need help buying a 1980 Morgan 382

wild382

wild382

John
I would like to share info about a boat I am looking at. What should I be looking for?
I have some pics of a few things that are of concern. Before I spend the time and money getting a survey, which I will do of course at some point, I would like to ask a few questions and possibly upload some of the pics so all can see them and give me your opinions.
Anyone?
 
My advice is to spend a little money and do an "in the water survey". If the boat is out of the water, ask the yard boss for an opinion on the boat's condition.

It is difficult to give advice from afar especially when it involves a purchase of a vessel. Trust you own judgment!

Jim
 
What price range is fair these days for a Morgan 382? Can I post some pics fro all to see and make comments on? The rudder has been modified. CNG stove, icebox only, New Main, dingy, ST6000 etc. are on the boat.
I want to make an offer soon if all checks out.
 
Why not use the internet and Google Morgan 382? There is a wealth of boats for sale and information.

With money the way it is today, it is a buyer's market.
Jim
 
Yes! The internet is great. Most are around $59,000. They are asking $69,000. Does that seem high? I have been using the internet. But I have heard that the asking prices are usually way off by 10-20 percent. After reading some blue book and insurance appraisals in the 40-50k range, it gave me pause. What say you?
By the way, really enjoyed reading your posts Jim. Very helpful.
 
I have seen 382's for 40K. It is a lot like car or house shopping, you have to look everywhere for the way any has been taken care of. Service records are important, but beyond that, a good surveyor is worth it all!
Jim
 
Like others have said, there are lots of boats on the market with a wide range of prices. http://www.yachtworld.com lists 16 382's with prices from $34k to $70k. There's one listed in VT that sounds like the boat you are looking at.

Some may have inflated asking prices - look at how long they've been listed. When it's priced right, it sells.

To a certain extent, you will end up spending the same in the end whether you buy an expensive boat with all the upgrades or a boat that needs work and fix it up. We took the latter approach buying a sound boat that needed some TLC for a good price. We've been working on her for 3 years since we bought her. In the end, we will have things done the way we want with the experience and confidence in the work. Which path you take is your choice.

I had looked at several boats, browsed articles to learn what to look for, talked with a friend who owned one, inspected the boat myself, then paid for a survey, had the boat hauled, and a mechanic to check out the engine. It was money well spent. We used the results of the survey, got estimates for work needed, and adjusted our offer accordingly.

It is unrealistic to use bluebook values and surveys of other boats since the specific condition of the boat and the extent and condition of inventory can swing the price significantly. Some accessories like electronics add little value, others like good sails, canvas, hardware, and systems cost a lot to purchase and install. If they are things you want / need they may be worth it. Sometimes, the owner spends $ on things that you might not value - that makes negotiation more difficult.

-Alan
 
Thanks
Did you look at what was on/with the boat? We are considering this boat, a Crealock 37 and a Cabo Rico.
The latter two are more $$ of course. We have compared the sailing characteristics etc. All are very close with the exception of the Morgan having a little faster theoretical hull speed. I am sure the Morgan is probably a faster light air sailboat.
My saiing experience began at 4. Since that time I have raced Ericsons (in the 70's) to Mexico from Newport Beach, CA. So I know a bit but I have not owned a boat for twenty-five years.
Other than interior wood etc. nd the rigging does anyone have any other opinions?
I did read the ad about keeping the 100K and going cruising.
 
John,

I looked at quite a few similar boats before buying my 384 three years ago. I did not bother with the more expensive boats. I decided that even a new boat would need upgrade$ to make it a cruiser.
I looked at six or seven 38x's around Florida, and picked a 384 mainly because of the slightly bigger rig and upgraded rudder.
I am sure all will agree; these boats are getting old. You can get one in good condition for about $50k, but expect to put as much as another $5k before you even start to add cruising gear.
I looked at one boat in Lauderdale, paid for a survey, and walked away from it. First time I ever did that. It was a hurricane boat that had been repaired just enough to make it look good. Watch out for that aspect of boat shopping.
Most of these boats (99%) are sound. We bought a boat that had sat for 5 long years unattended, but after 3 years of work, we know what we have inside and out.

btw, great light air boat!

Good luck
 
Thanks Timothy
THis boat appears to be in good shape and well taken care of. I agree that I will be putting $$ in.
New re-fridge, heat, propane stove instead of CNG, etc.
All else being equal it has been in fresh water would 60k be too much in your opinion for a 30 years old boat? And while we are on the subject, not knowing much about fiberglass life span, how much longer should the hull last?
 
It depends on the maintenance and care of the owner. Who can tell!

Any boat will be worth what a buyer is willing to pay. It is your choice!
Jim
 
John: Do what you started out with,post the listing and pictures of your concerned areas, then get comments. Get a survey if you are interested.

Dick
 
John,

We paid $56K for our 384 three years ago. It had everything you could possibly imagine on board. Two autopilots, Sat phone, Radar, SSB, davits, bimini, dodger, tools, dishes, a lot of saftey equipment etc.
However, a bunch of old equipment has little value (unless it is structural like davits). Electronics don't last long unattended, go obsolete, hard to repair etc.
I managed to look past all the stuff, and see the boat. Go for a solid boat. The other one that I walked away from was beautiful (like new), but had blisters as big as saucers. I think the hull was damaged in a collision/storm.
Morgans do NOT typically have serious blister problems. My 384 had a couple dozen very small blisters. If the rudder has been modified, I would take a close look at it; make sure you don't have to do it again.
It is certainly a buyer's market. Hang on to your dollars. I think $60K is a little steep, but I have no idea what the boat looks like.
 
That is good info for me Timothy. Thanks.
One thing I have to say here: There is a lot of helpful info here. Between the Cabo Rico 38 and the Morgan now.
Having this much support from owners is a real plus to me. Not anywhere near as much on the Cabo Rico 38.
Any more comments or opinions would be welcomed. As I said before I will of course get a survey. My situation might be somewhat different than most of the users here. All I can say is "life is very short" so time is important and all the advice I can get about the Morgan is welcomed.
Thanks
 
I for one am not going to give an opinion on things that look normal for a 28+ year old boat!

Jim
 
Cabo Ricos had some serious blister problems in the 80s, I think. But if that is not a problem, for off shore, I would go with the Cabo Rico, if I could afford it and wasn't afraid of bright work. Basic boat is probably stronger and is already set up as a cutter. Substantially heavier. But a CR will not perform near as well as the Morgan in light winds and will not point as high. Crealock was a good designer, but most of what he designed was a little under-rigged and conservative in design.
 
John,

I can provide some data from recent 384 purchase, and back up Jim's comment about buyer's market:

In May I closed on Savannah, 1983 384. Original asking price was $59k, when I found her the price had just been reduced to $49k. An offer of $39k was eagerly accepted. Survey was in line with the final price, discounted based on needed updates/repairs.

Good Luck,

Darren
 
Not much to add.
Would not be too concerned about cracks in gelcoat on transom or deck - common on older boats where deck radius joins coachroof. Check to see if transom cracks are from impact or around fittings - we had hairline cracks on transom and I ground them open, filled with gelcoat had a new coat of gelcoat sprayed over transom to cover filling and ultimately redeveloped a few cracks - most likely from simple expansion,

I'd be more interested in who rebuilt the rudder - can't tell much from photos and probably too much paint to tell anything about construction methods. Check rudder and cutlass bearing for wear.

Looks like lots of owner installed parts and wiring - would be great to have a schematic.

Strange that in yachtworld description they replaced the batteries in 2007 and again in 2009. While I consider group 27 batteries to be undersized for a boat with lots of electric loads and high power consumption, I would have expected them to last longer.

I've always liked the Crealock 37 (more than the 34) I think the Cabo Rico is pretty - lots of wood trim. I haven't sailed either one. We chartered a Pacific Seacraft 27 - heavy and solid, not good upwind. I'm sure you've done your homework on them as well with research, reviews and talking to owners. A quick scan of a few Crealock ads showed a lot of variation in price, equipment, and layout - a cutter/yawl version with a sail drive and 27 HP engine - no thanks. While others were much more money but bigger engine, tankage, cutter and sloop rigs, etc.

Always lots of decisions and tradeoffs. Good luck.
-Alan
 
You usually get what you pay for. Other than a very desperate seller that you can rape price wise it comes down to pay the higher price and go sailing, or pay a bargain price and work on the boat for a few years until you feel that the boat is right.
Larry
 
Thanks all. I found some of what was posted quite helpful. The funny thing is this group is responsive and enthusiastic about their boats. That has sort of a comfort effect. After 6 months of study and research, two boats I have not found too much negative on were the Crealock 37 and Morgan 38. This Morgan 382 is in pretty good shape and will be surveyed just to confirm as much as possible. I do see the 384 for less but it is farther away and in salt water. What about retro fitting of the 382 to a 384? Approximately how much to pay to have it done? That is provided one would want the taller mast, shorter boom, traveler moved up, deck vents and modified rudder? (anything else I left out?)
Is it really worth it?
 
The displacment figure in your matrix is not correct. The 382's displaced approximately 17,200lbs. Therefore, because the increase in the sail area did not make up for the increase in weight, the 382 has a higher sail area to displace ratio and should perform a little better than a 384. I have a 384 and have sailed with/against 382s. I have not noticed any signifcant difference in performance between the to models. I would not consider changing the rig on a 382 if it were my decision.

Jay
 
About Blistering- regarding fresh water vs salt water

a book by Tony Stanton-Bevan said that 30-
35% of the boats that he surveys in a year suffer from
blistering of some kind.
"The inescapable conclusion that composite [fiberglass] boats aren't waterproof
has taken the industry by surprise. . . Don't believe me? Build a
small fiberglass tank, fill it with water, and glass it shut. Cut it
open a few months later, and it will be bone dry."
"blistering became a widespread problem in the '80s, and the industry was
forced to address it. The early years of gelcoat blistering, as it was
first known, were filled with confusion and finger-pointing.
Unbeknownst to most builders of the day, the blistered gelcoat
was just symptomatic of problems much farther down in the
laminate. Now, the dust of the debate has slowly settled, leaving
us with the difficult realization that almost every aspect of
composite construction can contribute to the problem."
"Why do some boat laminates that show up very wet (satu-
rated with water) on the moisture meter remain blister free, while
others that test dry, blister severely? Why do some boats that have
been peeled, dried out, and recoated blister again very quickly?
The answer is relatively simple.
In a craft 10 to 12 years old,
the figure jumps to about 60%."

He also said that "boats kept in
fresh water or warm water are likely to blister much sooner and it
is not unusual to find blistering after 12 months afloat under
either of these conditions, where the less waterproof orthophthalic
resins are used. The reason is that fresh water has a lower density
than salt water, which increases the osmotic pressure, causing
water molecules to permeate through the gelcoat more quickly.
 
I have a hard time believing this. Just as a simple observation I have fiberglass tanks that hold water for months without a problem. My CM38 went a number of years between having a bottom job done (at least 4) and it had less than a dozen blisters over the entire surface. If water could travel through the fiberglass through osmosis I would think my boat couldn't possibly keep a dry bilge. This sounds like a pitch of some kind this guy was trying to make...
 
Fiberglass fuel tanks vs metal

Now that we are on the subject of fiber glass.
How good are fiberglass tanks on the Morgan vs metal?
 
Blistering - been a lot written about it - causes and cures. I'm sure you can find more on Crealock 37s elsewhere than on the Morgan discussion list. Review on BoatUS http://www.boatus.com/jackhornor/sail/PacificSeacraft37.asp
Discusses blistering problems and fuel tank corrosion.

Converting 382 into 384: The bigger rudder is probably the one thing I'd put at the top of the list. The 384 is heavier, more teak, a little more upscale for the market of the time. You can add dorade boxes and hatches. Higher aspect rig on slightly taller mast not worth it. While mid-boom sheeting opens up cockpit ' better for parties and a full coverage bimini, I like having the main sheet close at hand to the helmsman. I don't like having to use a winch on the mainsheet.

Since you are into number crunching, I'm sure you've read a lot about design and comparisons. Great resource at http://cruisingresources.com/Hull_Shape_and_Performance
Ted Brewer, designer of the 382-384, gives a good discussion of boat performance parameters including the comfort ratio. http://www.tedbrewer.com/yachtdesign.html

Others have attempted to numerically define the ideal cruising boat and rank production boats. See copy of 1998 Cruising World article. Morgan 382 scored near top http://www.pbase.com/lesterhel/crunching_numbers

Then methodology revised in 2000
http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/best.htm

Follow-on work at http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/lowcost.htm

Lots of numbers, no 'right' answer but probably can't go wrong with boats you're considering.
 
p.s. Why do you think it's a "funny thing is this group is responsive and enthusiastic about their boats"?
What kind of response do you get from the Crealock 37 Owners Group?
 
Regarding displacement. If you look on our home page, there is a Good Old Boat article about a members boat. Within this page is an article by Ted Brewer on the design of the 382. I wrote an article in the Spring 1999 Newsletter regarding True Draft. I intereviewed Pete Brown (the production manager for Morgan) to get the information for that True Draft article. If you are interested in the design figures for the 382s, 383s, 384s, I feel very confident that those two article will provide you with the most accurate information that is available.

Jay
 
As I read these post I remember a little more about my researh into the Brewer 38s. I also quized Ted Brewer about the displacement. He told me that the displacement was with the water tanks half filled and that for every 950 lbs of stuff placed onboard, you increase draft by one inch. I imagine that this weight to draft calculation is not linear but, is very close to being so for the first three inches or 2850 lbs.

Jay
 
The issue increases when you carry weight, such as jerry jugs, liferaft, chain, and other heavy articles on deck. The is even more critical with a 5 foot draught compared with the 6 foot version.
jim
 
Alan and Cheryl,

Thanks for the excellent links. We ended up with a 384 simply because it was in better shape than the other half dozen Morgan 38's we looked at.
I don't like mid-boom sheeting much; don't like using a winch on the main sheet either. We put in the lowest friction blocks that we could find and it helped.
There is (was) a lot of teak on deck. The dorade boxes were just in the way and did not let in much air. We replaced them with hatches, and removed all teak from the cockpit except the coming.
Only teak left is the cockpit coming, caprail, and grab-rails.
The boat steers well off the wind, and sails well on all points. The taller rig is, I think, a wash in terms of performance. Put two Morgans up against one another, and I think the winner will be the one with the lesser amount of gear.
I was pleased to see the numbers on the 38. Thanks again.

Tim Denney
S/V Expatriate
 
John,

I recently (this year) read an article about tanks. I think it was Practical Sailor, not sure. I was suprised to see that the conclusion was that fiberglass was an excellent material for a tank. I think they were discussing diesal tanks. I will try to find the reference.

In a previous boat we had an aluminum diesel tank in the bilge. It started leaking badly when we filled up in Puerto Rico for the return trip.
Fortunately the leak was about 3" down from the top on a tank that was at least 4 feet deep. Also, we did not fill the tank all the way to the top because we were using jugs. We only lost a couple of gallons into the bilge, but used every scrap of fuel absorbant material on board in the clean up. Then we ran the engine for 12 hours to get the level down some. Seemed to work.

Someone in the past (I hope not me) had dropped a hose clamp down between the tank and the hull. Electrolosis did the rest of the work. When we changed out the tank in Florida, it was pretty cruddy looking on the bottom, but not actually leaking down there. A glass tank would never have this problem.

We had polypropylene water tanks on that boat, also in the bilge. They were not very secure down there and shifted a little in rough weather, but they seemed to be bullet proof. Never a moments trouble.

Well, that is my entire knowledge of tanks.

Tim Denney
S/V Expatriate
 
Jim,

Found the tank reference: Practical Sailor, May 2007. Sorry, I don't have an electronic copy of the article. Their bottom line was: "A well made glass tank should last the life of the boat". So if it isn't leaking by now, it never will.

Cheers!
 
<div>Here's the article you referenced.

View attachment Fuel_Tanks-16871.pdf

Fuel Tanks.pdf


Other than I wish it were larger, I would also like to have an access port on the fiberglass tank in the 382 rather than have to remove the fuel gage to suck out residue from the bottom of the tank.</div>
 
Tim,
I installed a Garhauer mid boom traveler and sheet blocks on the boom. Night and day difference over the old OEM nicro traveler.( 5 to 1 now, no winch handles). Being able to play the traveler regardless of mainsheet tension all but eliminated excessive weather helm. One of my best upgrades. FWIW / Dave 383
 
Dave,

Thanks for the info. I am suprised to hear about excessive weather helm. Are you running a big jib, like a 140? They seem to create their own helm. Usually, the 38 balances well.

For the moment my cheap main sheet solution works OK. However, I cannot move the traveler under load enough to matter.

When I rerigged the boat, I was told it would be a good idea to replace the traveler. Of course, the traveler itself is Ok, it's the car that is completely toast. Lots of friction.

It's on the list of things to do before we shove off. Thanks again.

Alan & and Cheryl,

Thanks for the e-copy of the article. For Practical Sailor, that was a very in-depth article.

Tim Denney
S/V Expatriate
 
My understanding is that the 382's had more weather than desired. At 1st the thought was to move the mast aft. This would necessitate much retooling of the molds. On trial sails water cross over at the ruder was noticed. This resulted in the redesigned ruder to fill in the space between the top of the ruder and the hull. The other modification was to raise the mast an shorten the boom. Doing this increased the fore triangle and decreased the area of the main. also the boom was raised about a foot, on the mast. The boom was not long enough to sheet at the end where the traveler had been previously. Thus mid boom traveler. The original travelers were really bad and should be replaced. I now have a Harken, and can trim my mainsail under load and after tacks by hand with out a winch. I have seen that 384' rate under phrf 6 sec a mile faster than 382's. as that is only 500 feet at six knots in 10 miles, they sail about the same. As for changing the rig on a 382, to expensive. Reefing can be used instead.
 
Bert; not quite right. As I understand it, they raised the rig on the 383s and then discovered it had more weather helm than desired. So they created the bigger rudder. Some of us on the 382s have also changed rudder shape, because even the 382s carry a bit more weather helm than some like. It is all matter of taste, in some ways, as long as the weather helm is not really excessive--and it is not excessive even on the standard 382.
 
Weather helm is a result of having to much sail up in the fore triangle or moving the center of effort forward.

"Weather helm is the tendency of sailing vessels to turn towards the source of wind, creating an unbalanced helm that requires pulling the tiller to windward (i.e. 'to weather') in order to counteract the effect. Weather helm is the opposite of lee helm.

When a vessel is close hauled and heeling, the lee side of the hull is more under water than the weather side. The resulting shape of the submerged part of the hull in this condition usually creates a force (a turning moment) that pushes the bow to weather so that it is necessary to pull the tiller to weather to equilibrate this force. Since a weather helm requires pulling the rudder through the water at an angle to the intended course, it produces drag and retards the boat's progress through the water. In the book "Sailing Illustrated", Patrick M. Royce defines weather helm as simply a "heeling sailboat wanting to come head to wind."[1] The principle is the same whether the vessel is steered by tiller or wheel; turning the wheel leeward gives the same rudder effect as pulling a tiller windward.
[edit] Mitigation

Any action that reduces the angle of heel of a boat that is reaching or beating to windward will help reduce excessing weather helm. Racing sailors routinely try to use bodyweight or other moveable ballast to bring the boat to a more upright position. Reducing or reefing the total sail area will have the same effect and, counter-intuitively, many boats will sail faster with less sail in a stiff breeze once heel and weather helm have been reduced, due to the reduction in underwater drag. Easing the sheets on aft-most sails, such as the mainsail in a sloop or cutter can have an immediate effect, especially to help with manoeuvering. Moving or increasing sail area forward can also help, for example by raising the jib (and maybe lowering the staysail) on a cutter.

Sailing off the wind, weather helm may be caused by the imbalance due to fore-and-aft sails all being sheeted out on the same (leeward) side of the boat. Raising a spinnaker or poling out a headsail to windward with a whisker pole can help. Yachts making ocean trade wind crossings have rigged 'twins' - double headsails poled out to opposite sides from the same forestay for extended downwind passages without a mainsail.[2] Square rigged sails also provide relatively symmetric drive off the wind.
[edit] Discussion

See Sailing Theory and Practice by C.A. Marchaj for a mathematical analysis of the dynamics of weather helm.[3]

While it is true that an increased angle of heel generally increases weather helm, it is misleading to identify heel as the cause of weather helm. The fundamental cause of "helm", be it weather or lee, is the relationship of the center of pressure of the sail plan to the center of lateral resistance of the hull. If the center of pressure is astern of the center of lateral resistance, a weather helm, the tendency of the vessel to want to turn into the wind, or to weather-vane, will result. A slight amount of weather helm is thought by many skippers to be a desirable situation, both from the standpoint of the "feel" of the helm, and the tendency of the boat to head slightly to windward in stronger gusts, to some extent self-feathering the sails. It also provides a form of dead man's switch'the boat stops safely in irons if the helm is released for a length of time.

If the situation is reversed, with the center of pressure forward of the center of resistance of the hull, a "lee" helm will result, which is generally considered undesirable, if not dangerous. Too much of either helm is not good, since it forces the helmsman to hold the rudder deflected to counter it, thus inducing extra drag beyond what a vessel with neutral or minimal helm would experience.

To be fair, if a ship was initially well-balanced in respect to helm, it could be said that heeling might "cause" a weather helm, in the sense that the heel could create one that did not exist before, but this obscures the fact that the root cause of the phenomenon is the relationship between the center of the force exerted by the sail plan, and the center of the resistance to that force by the hull, and not the angle of heel of the hull."

The rudder modification done on later models did little to enlarge the rudder where it is needed and that is lower in the water and away from surface turbulence.

The mast being raised and boom shorten, I was told, was a result of charter people complaining of the low boom and traveler in the cockpit.

Reefing the main or reducing the size of the headsail will help balance the boat and therefore increase speed and comfort for the crew. My sailmaker said the ideal headsail for the 382 is either a 90 or possibly a 100. A larger, 110 or 120, only makes sense for sailing areas with light air. Even with the 90 or 100, reefing the main should done in approx. 15 to 18 kts.

Jim
 
Jim,

Wow, this all sounds like what I have tried to understand in the books on design theory. So, when my boat heals, the lateral resistance of the hull changes and moves forward. The bow digs in a little, I guess. The stern is more bouyant and lifts a little, and kind of slips downwind. That would explain why full sections aft are worse, and traditional catboats are the classic case.

I am running about a 100% jib. On a previous boat, I had a 100% and a 140%. I finally ended up sailing with the 100% all the time. It really did not hurt downwind performance enough to bother me. Looks like most boats are designed for a 100% jib.

Its true, we don't reef until at least 15 knots of true wind. Until that windspeed, we have no more than about 1/4 turn of helm. Above that, we get 1/2 turn and increasingly more until we reef.

Reefing is usually determined (very vocally) by my beautiful and talented crew!

Cheers

Tim Denney
S/V Expatriate
 
Jim, I disagree with you. Sail area forward pushes the bow away from the wind. Sail area aft pushes the bow towards the wind. This is why when occasionally overpowered the main can be eased or dumped to lessen windward helm. If I was sailing in San Fran Bay as I think you are, I would only use a 110% sail also. How ever on the Chesapeake where the winds are often 5 to 10 and sometimes 15 a 150% is often used. I carry a 140% to 18 knots apparent, thats probably 15 true, and then reef. Heeling the boat also has a great effect on windward helm. I have read the books and have 40 years of racing experience.

Terry I will stand by my story, I have a 383, taller rig, and bigger ruder. Jim the fill in at the top of the ruder also decreased the turbulence.

I don't think fat sterns are the problem. Look at the Tartans Benatuaes, and the around the world crewed and single handed boats. Classic cat boats had most of their sail forward of the centerboard. Mast forward, and a gaff which put more sail by the mast.
 
We have had this discussion about weather helm many times. And frankly each time I read it I can't believe the complaint. This hull was tank tested before the boats were built. The original sailing instructions tell you that there is no weather helm. Southerly is a 1979 382. We carry a 150 genoa. We have owned her since 1987, 22 years. We did develope weather helm a few years after we bought her. The main sail was old and the draft moved aft, to far for me to be able to pull it forward with the aid of a luff rope. I replaced the main sail and the weather helm went away. In short the problem was that the center of effort was out of balance with the center of lateral resistance causing weather helm. Jim Balls posting is correct. Southerly has 3 to 4 degrees of weather helm going to windward, and about 10 degrees on a beam reach. All of it controlable with two fingers on the wheel in any wind condition. As long as the sails are trimmed properly. And I mean the use of halyard tension, foot tension, traveler position, and reefed to proper sail area. Don't forget the position of genoa car block. I will give you one hint, 382's like a little more head sail and a reduced main when the wind pipes up. It helps the bow dig in and go through the water as opposed to float over it.
If you have any doubt about what I am saying I will gladly take you out for a sail and show you first hand. We are located in Mamaroneck, NY, on Long Island Sound. Southerly was just hauled so the invation is for the spring or summer of 2010.
Sorry if I sound a bit annoyed, but I really can't stand the thought of people telling other people that these boats have weather helm. They don't. The fault is with the owner of the boat, not the boat.
Now I feel better that I blew off my steam.
Larry
 
Gee
I just wanted some tips before buying a 382.
We made an offer. Not accepted.
Thanks for your help and insight into the 382 - 384's anyway.
I believe it's off to look at the Cabo Rico and another Morgan south of us.
I agree with Larry and Jim. Weather helm ... all else being equal, tank tested etc., is usually a sail adjustment issue. Having known Bill Crealock when I lived in So Cal, I learned a lot from him not only about hull design but also about sails and sailing.
 
I agree Larry. My early 383 has the taller rig and original (small) rudder. Bad combo? No, the boat balances quite well IF the sails are trimmed properly. That was the reason for the traveler change. If I had enough mainsheet tension to flatten the sail, the traveler was inoperable. Result: excessive heel and weather helm. Now, I can set the main's shape for the wind and point of sail and set the boom with the traveler regardless of sheet tension.
I haven't found the 383 to have any bad habits upwind or downwind that weren't related to improper sail trim or (my) "driver error". I really like the way the boat sails. Sure, it could go to weather a bit tighter, but I wouldn't trade the 5' draft for that. The ole' Perkins woodchipper solves that problem anyway.
Here's the real issue (IMHO): These boats are getting old, as is the gear. The reefing blocks are (were) undersized, "1 to 1" out haul inoperable with the sail filled, no cunningham. Add a old blown out sail and no "tools" to adjust = big helm pressure. Weather helm? Put the correct sails up and trim them properly. I reef the main alot. My 2 cents
 
Larry, I think you may have taken the discussion the wrong way. Unless I misunderstood something this thread was just talking about the affects of the sail plan/rudder changes between the 382 and 383. I don't think I've ever run into a boat design that was so badly laid out that they chronically suffered from weather helm by design. I think we all agree weather helm is controllable. Earlier there seemed to be disagreement about whether having more jib sail area created weather or lee helm. I think this thread really demonstrates the satisfaction Morgan owners have for the 38.

Other Larry,
S/V Ridiculous
 
Weather helm is a direct result of sail trim and amount of sail aloft. Do not blame the boat!
Jim
 
Thank you. In my opinion these are great boats. Designed well and built well. But they are getting old, and like an old house you have to love it and keep updating it. It only cost money and time.
A well owned Morgan (one that has been kept up through all the years of ownership) is priceless and not replaceable in todays market of new boats.
I guess I just love my boat.
Larry
 
Re: bad designs. morgan 38 is a good de3sign. But, there are some design problems and they are interesting to contemplate. Ted Brewer is a good designer. One of the boats he designed was a canoe stern cutter, the Jason 35. They carried a very bad weather helm--all the time--and he admitted to the mistake. On later boats in the run, the mast was moved forward to correct the problem and the boats were so stoutly built that even some of the original boats moved their masts forward. The internal support structure was strong enough simply to move the cutter mast forward and put it back down on the beams. The chain plates were externally mounted so you only had to move them forward on the hull. A big job, but doable. Another notorious example was the Ray Richards designed Allejuela 33. Very pretty cutters, with terrible weather helms. No reasonable way to move the mast, I understand. Some owners tried longer and longer sprits, but with no complete solution. Rare errors, but unfortunate.
 
Hi everyone, I have been offline for a long time but I needed to see what was going on with the group. As all ways a great discussion. Regarding the cruising abilities of the Morgan 382,3, and 4's. I can tell you that there are several in the SW Caribbean right now and they all seem to love the bang for the buck. There are lots of bigger boats down here in Panama and Colombia but the 38's seem to travel a lot more than some. The "world class crusiers" are here as well but in not near the porportion that the sailing rags would have you believe. One thing for sure, all boats have maintenience issues that arise no matter the original cost. I have found that my 383 handles some fairly extreme conditions (ie. 40knts sustained 20hours) quite well. We do lack the interior space of newer boats in the same length. All in all a great choice for the money and still a fine sailing boat.
Dave Green
High Spirits
 
Bob Perry's infamous Valiant 40 has terrible weather helm. He later corrected it on th 42.
Fortunatly for us the Morgan was tested.
 
What about the original thread I started?
Need help buying a 1980 Morgan 382?
If the boat is clean but no heat, no re-fridge, a CNG stove instead of propane, all sails old but in good condition accept the main is new, older electronics except auto pilot is st6000, includes dingy, outboard, dodger, Bimini, rudder has been "professionally" modified, aft part of keel was damaged in the holding tank area when lowering boat for survey, price is between $62,000 and $64,000. Survey said keel was fixed. How would one know if there was a problem with the holding tank? The helm as a "funky" home made pedestal guard. Last... do you need to have 3 separate surveyors? A mechanical, electrical and then the boat itself, as some have suggested elsewhere? Is this a good price today. You all must have an opinion being the savvy shoppers you appear to be.
 
When we had "Paragon" (our 1981 Morgan 382) surveyed prior to purchase, I used a surveyor in the area recommended by the broker. The surveyor had both NAMS-CMS and SAMS-AMS credentials. We live in GA, the boat was in at the North end of the Chesapeake it made sense to use someone local to the area. We chose to have a separate inspection of the engine (done on the same day). I know sailboats, rigging, plumbing, and electrical systems, and have worked on cars, but a diesel was new to me and an expensive proposition if unsound. The inspection was done by a mechanic and instructor who knows marine diesels and specifically Perkins inside and out. I learned a lot from him and it was worth it.
 
As I said, get the boat surveyed and make a decision! What more can anyone on this board say? A boat purchase is like a house, plain and simple!
Jim
 
John,
My opinion of the boat, as you described it is it's way too much. Most boat brokers subscribe to Yachtworld. The broker can print up a 1 or 2 (or 3) years of the actual selling prices. "Comparibles" as they say in real estate. There are bargains out there, but they usually require a lot work to update. (Mine did!)
If I were you, I'd try to pay a max of $50k for a solid, clean boat with newer sails, a modern furler, refrig, and &lt;2000 hr perkins, autopilot, all working. Freshwater if you can find one!
ALL 30 year old boats will need work. Pick the battle you are willing to fight. Just my 2 cents.
 
Dave has it right. Over 60K for a Morgan in less than perfect shape appears high given what other boats are going for. Look at all the 38s in Yachtworld--few are even at 60. If you are worried about the holding tank, make sure the surveyor looks extra carefully at that part of the keel when she is out of the water. Sound all areas of the hull and deck and cabin for "voids" and delamination. Pay nothing for electronics. Assume you will soon want to replace "old" sails. Is the "new" one from an established sailmaker or was it bought overseas? surveyor and one engine mechanic is enough.
 
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