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Yanmar 33

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
My 382 has a Perkins 4-108. I am contemplating a repower. Things are beginning to break, altho it always starts and mostly runs well.

The Perkins is probably more hp than the boat needs, at least according to Ted Brewer's book on yacht design. For those of you that still have the Yanmar 33, which appears to fit Ted's advice on engine size, some questions:
1. What is your cruising rpm and cruising speed?
2. What is your fuel usage at cruise?
3,. What is the Yanmar 33's design top rpm and what is the actual top rpm on your engine?
4. What is your prop diameter and pitch?

The Beta 43 has similar but higher performance than the 4-108. It appears to me that the Beta 35 would be enough power for the boat and would burn significantly less fuel than a Beta 43. On the other hand, those 382 owners who installed the Beta 38 (a higher revving engine) discovered that the 38's lift pump could not bring the fuel out of a Morqan 382/3 tank. One installed a day tank, at additional expense, and one relies on an electric lift pump. Maybe the 35 would have a similar problem.

I am trying to make a wise choice, so I am seeking more information. And to Mark Pearson: I have not eliminated a Yanmar 45 from consideration. It is on my list of options. But given my old fart problems using my damn cell phone, I hesitate to have a computer-driven diesel on my boat.

Thanks to all who can give me answers and advice.
 

struell

Stephen Ruell
We repowered with a Beta 38. The electric lift pump isa tiny item not a big deal item in expense or complication, compared to the overall reposer installation but I have had several fuel lift pump problems since 2018 when the engine was installed. It has been getting to where I want resolve it for certain. I have started to research and can see several things wrong with my installation that I am going to try in order to resolve it.

We had the Yanmar 3QM30 engine originally and the boat had been fitted with an electric lift pump to augment the mechanical lift pump that is on the Yanmar. The electric pump was mounted right beside the engine at the same level as the top of the engine and in the repower they just replaced it with another brand in the same position. Our Racor filter is in the cabinet under the galley sink. The first electric pump and another I replaced it with have failed and then this summer the mechanical lift pump failed.

The Owner's manual for the Beta 38 says that if the tank is more than 0.25m (about 10") below the engine then an electric lift pump is required, and they sell one in their parts store. The manual does not show where that dimension is measured from, but the Morgan 382 tank is a lot more that that below the engine. And in my installation the pump is sucking that height rather than pushing.

This is a quote from the blog on the Beta website responding to a question about an installation with the bottom of the tank 4 ft below the engine bed. Stanley is a long time Beta rep in the US.

"Hello Tommy,

The fact of the matter is that the lift pump will do the job but we tend to be conservative in our claims. I would rather do this than make claims that are exagerated. The lift pumps on small Japanese diesels, Kubota, Mitsubishi, Shibaru, Isuzu and Yanmar are all made by one of two different manufacturers and you are likely to have the same issue with all of the engine manufacturers, immaterial of the claims made by a salesman or sales brochure. The old Volvo diesels had excellent lift pumps as did the Farymann diesels. The same can't be said for the latest offerings.

All of these small lift pumps push much better than they suck but are fitted directly to the engine. This is because most of these small diesels get used on equipment that has the fuel tank fitted to the particular machine. These are generating sets, light towers, Bobcats, tractors, welding machines, etc. In these machines the lift pump just has to move the fuel a foot or two. If you dont want to add an electric pump which will work best when installed as close to the tank as possible (remember that these also push much better than they suck), I suggest carrying a spare mechanical lift pump to make sure that you dont have any issues.

If you look at the Westerbeke offerings, (they marinise both Kubota and Mitsubishi), they dont use the engine manufacturers lift pump at all. All of their engines have a blanking plate where the lift pump is usually fitted and their engines are fitted with an electric fuel pump.

I hope that this helps to clarify the issue.
Stanley"

In another post he said that the electric pump should not exceed 6 psi or it will cause problems with the mechanical lift pump which would be removed. I think now that this may have caused my problem this summer.

I bought the previous electric pumps on line and in local auto parts stores. They are really made for trucks and I didn't worry about their pressure ratings. Beta has an electric auxiliary pump in their parts store on line. I am going to get one of theirs and install it as close to the tank as I can get it, so that it pushes the fuel through the Racor and up to the engine. Hopefully that will resolve it.

The fuel pump for the Beta 28, 30, 35, and 38 are the same part number. The Beta 43 fuel pump has a different part number. The drawings of the Beta engine show the 35/38 on the same drawing so it may be the same engine.

Other than this issue we have had no problems with the Beta and like it very much. I think you should not make the choice based on the fuel delivery issue alone.

Steve
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Thank you Steve. This is very helpful and a little discouraging. The purpose of a repower is to gain reliability. Are you going to take the manual pu,mp out? Also, what kind and size of prop do you run? What is your WOT top rpm, your cruising rpm, and your cruising speed? Thanks again.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Oh, and Steve: What transmission did you choose? And how do I find the website that has the conversation you quoted? The 35 and 38 are same engine block, but the 38 is tuned for more rpm. I have no interest in rpms above 2800, which is why I am looking at the 35.
 

struell

Stephen Ruell
Hi Terry:
To answer your questions,
The Beta is reliable, wthat I am having trouble with is the fuel delivery system, which is outside their supply. I don't blame Beta. I should have dug into it myself at the time probably. I don't think I would take out the mechanical lift pump at this point but will get the electrical pump further away from it and with the filter in between the two pumps. Plus will carry spares of both pumps.
The prop is the original that was on the boat - 16R12 three blade bronze fixed blade. I dream about a Max Prop
I would have to look up the transmission ratio but the shop called Beta and they chose it for the propeller we had.
Not sure what WOT is but we have had it up to 3000 rpm once or twice, can get almost 7 knots at that, but we tow a RIB dinghy and there is usually a lot of tidal current in Maine so I don't have any clean measurements. We can get 5 knots most of time at around 2000 rpm; 6 knots at 2400 to 2600 rpm, just based on casual experience and GPS over ground readings. I know the 38 engine is supposed to be good for 3600 rpm but I haven't tried running at that. My wife likes to run at higher rpm than I do. The old Yanmar had much slower revs, maybe 2000 rpm max as I remember, but much louder and shook the boat. The Beta seems to have no vibration, is a little noisy above 2000 rpm but we have very little sound insulation. I cannot compare it to your Perkins 4-108 having never been on a 382 with one.
The website for Beta's blog is https://82353.activeboard.com/p/results/ Click on the upper black bar, on "Search" and you get a drop down box to enter a search for "fuel pump" or "fuel lift pump" or other topics.
Does the 35 cost less than the 38?
Steve
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
I don't know the cost of the 38 compared to the 35.

I spent quite a bit of time with Jay Green today. It was discouraging. He installed a 38. Put a Beta electric pump between the tank and the Racor 500 filter. He fought with it for some time, because the pump was creating air bubbles in the filter, which then got to the engine and it stalled. He is a smart guy and he tried all sorts of stuff and made sure all connections were tight. Racor had no idea what was happening and Beta was no help. He finally installed an 8 gallon day tank in the lazerette and uses the pump only to fill that, which then gravity feeds then engine. In addition, he was warned the TMC gearbox would leak fluid and it did and he had to rebuild the transmission. It still leaks and he has to monitor it very carefully. He says the engine itself seems fine, but my purpose for a repower is reliability. Instead, everyone seems to have problems. Does your engine stall out for lack of fuel and then you need to bleed it to get it going again? Has Beta been any help?
 

struell

Stephen Ruell
Hi Terry:
Thanks for all the research you are doing and recording here.

I haven't done anything yet on modifying our pump location and won't do it until next spring. I was planning to do what Jay Green did but from what you are reporting wonder if that will work better. Our's has stalled when underway only three times and when it did we ultimately traced it to pump failures, from what we can tell. Twice the electric pumps and once most recently the mechanical pump.

I cannot see how the pump can cause air to get into his Racor unless there is an air leak in the tank or the few feet of line between the tank and the filter. Did he install new fuel line when he added the pump? Our fuel line tubing between the tank and the Racor is copper with flare fittings and there is a very old ball valve on the tank plate. I would suspect that valve would be a suspect if there was a problem. Could it be in the tank pickup internal to the tank?

We haven't had any trouble with the transmission leaking. I just looked at it again and there is no sign of any leakage.
Steve
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Thanks for continuing the conversation. Did you drop the fuel return line below the bottom of the tank? And are you saying that you have to run the electric pump constantly when the engine is going? The Beta fellow in California claims it should run, once primed, without the electric pump. It is all very frustrating to get different information from actual users and the company.
 

struell

Stephen Ruell
I haven't done anything yet really. The boat came to us with the electric pump wired to run when the engine runs and it is still wired that way. From what I can see our return line does not drop on the exterior to below the bottom of the tank, it would have to be in the bilge to do that and it isn't visible. Would not be too hard to do though.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
If you look at the installation manual, they direct that arrangement of the return line. I was told the failure to do that can cause fuel supply issues. I would recommend you do that. So, as I understand you, you had an electric pump fail twice? Did you replace it twice then? And why do you think the manual pump has failed?
 

struell

Stephen Ruell
Terry:
Yes I had two electric pumps fail plus the mechanical pump.

I had an intermittent problems - failure to start, stalling, then complete failure, had several mechanics look at it but it didn't so it for them, they thought it was the gasket on the Racor was installed poorly whihc apparently is common. Finally friend helped me think it through and troubleshooting. I disconnected the fuel line coming out of the electric pump and powered the pump separately, and the fuel pump made sounds but didn't pump. With a replacement of the pump and doing the same test, the fuel flowed and the engine ran. All good, then a year later it happened again. Replaced the pump with what I thought was a better model more expensive. Two years later, this year, the same problem but this time I could get fuel to flow from the electric pump and so I called a mechanic who came out to the boat. He worked through the system and changed filters checked everything. He wasn't sure so he replaced the electric pump with one I had bought as a spare. The engine would run for a few minutes and quit. He found that he could keep it running if he pumped the hand lever on the side of the mechanical lift pump on the engine. As soon as he stopped pumping it would quit, and he retried that several times. So we ordered the replacement of that pump from Beta. I wasn't there when he installed it but he said the new pump fixed it and the engine ran well for a good long time. We took the boat back and used the engine for about another 8 hours. That was the end of the season and where the matter sits at the moment.

I have time before next spring to decide what to do. I thought I had a plan but not so sure now from what you have learned. As of today my thought is I will try to install the electric pump in the line from the tank before the Racor, and reinstall the return line to match the Beta manual. I wish Beta or Kubota just had a replacement pump more suitable for deep set tanks, that could fit in the place of this one.
Steve
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Yes, I can see why this would be frustrating. I am already frustrated with Beta's response to my questions. It is concerning that the electric pump seems to have damaged the mechanical pump. That will happen again. Did you mechanic install a Beta electric pump the last time? Were the earlier pumps Beta's? If not, what PSI did they run?
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Steve, I have continued my conversations with Beta, this time I finally communicated with someone in England. His instructions about electric pumps are different than what I got from the West Coast distributor. He said to install the lift pump after the fuel separator. I quote him below:

There is no difference in technical performance between the B35 and B43, the pumps are different but the same applies to either, please see the attachment from Kubota, this covers all engines. I have highlighted the technical leaflet to show the relevant information, it states that the pump must be protected from dirt and water, this is why we recommend fitting it after the pre filter/water trap. Of course you do not have to follow these recommendations and fit an electric pump where you desire, but I strongly suggest you follow the recommendations.

If your mechanical pump failed, it may be that the non-Beta electrical pump was too powerful. Just a guess.
 
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