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Windlass Problem

B

bolisg

New Member
On a 1993 Catalina/Morgan -
I have been trying to fix my windless for quite a while without success. Finally, I had a mechanic look at it and he thinks the angle of the chain to the windless is not enough for the chain links to catch the chain grooves. The make of the windless is Maxwell 800, horizontal. If anyone has had a similar problem and managed to solve it, I would appreciate any suggestions. Thank you. Gary B.
Hull #19
 
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Hi Gary -
I've been trying to rapidly become knowledgeable on windlasses because our old 'manual' Simpson Lawrence was very dramatically dumping all 225ft of chain and our 40 pound anchor spontaneously. No stopping it until the bitter end. Our problem seemed to be what you are describing: the windlass was down in the locker so the chain actually went 'up' to go over the roller. It seemed to lose traction on the grooves (the fitting is called a 'gypsy' on a windlass).

After a bunch of research, we bought a new Maxwell HRC-8 (aka HRCFF8). It's a horizontal windlass with an electric motor. I'm flying up to British Columbia to install it on Zia this weekend.

Anyway, I'm building a 2" platform in an effort to get it closer to a horizontal chain exit. The manual says the chain should be going out of the windlass horizontally, or down to -30 degrees. Not up. Mine is going to go slightly up, but the reason I'm hopeful is this Maxwell unit has a piece called a 'pressure arm' which pushes the chain into the gypsy. It sure looks like it'll keep the chain in place. They also provided a spare pressure arm because they presumably wear out over time.

So in your case:
1. See if there is a diagram of your windlass. Does it have a pressure arm? Maybe it is worn out or missing? I got on Maxwells web site to see if I could find a manual for a '800' ... didn't find anything.
2. Do you have any room to build a platform under the windlass to try to get the angle closer to a horizontal chain exit?

Good luck & keep us posted.
Cheers,
-Mark
 
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mpearson said:
Hi Gary -
I've been trying to rapidly become knowledgeable on windlasses because our old 'manual' Simpson Lawrence was very dramatically dumping all 225ft of chain and our 40 pound anchor spontaneously. No stopping it until the bitter end. Our problem seemed to be what you are describing: the windlass was down in the locker so the chain actually went 'up' to go over the roller. It seemed to lose traction on the grooves (the fitting is called a 'gypsy' on a windlass).

After a bunch of research, we bought a new Maxwell HRC-8 (aka HRCFF8). It's a horizontal windlass with an electric motor. I'm flying up to British Columbia to install it on Zia this weekend.

Anyway, I'm building a 2" platform in an effort to get it closer to a horizontal chain exit. The manual says the chain should be going out of the windlass horizontally, or down to -30 degrees. Not up. Mine is going to go slightly up, but the reason I'm hopeful is this Maxwell unit has a piece called a 'pressure arm' which pushes the chain into the gypsy. It sure looks like it'll keep the chain in place. They also provided a spare pressure arm because they presumably wear out over time.

So in your case:
1. See if there is a diagram of your windlass. Does it have a pressure arm? Maybe it is worn out or missing? I got on Maxwells web site to see if I could find a manual for a '800' ... didn't find anything.
2. Do you have any room to build a platform under the windlass to try to get the angle closer to a horizontal chain exit?

Good luck & keep us posted.
Cheers,
-Mark
Click to expand...


Thank you Mark, your comments and suggestions are most helpful. I did some extensive research and did print out the VWCLP800 Electric Winch from the Maxwell website. There is no pressure arm shown on it, but I do believe a pressure arm on the unit would help to solve my problem. But after talking to Catalina and Maxwell, they both confirmed that it is a bad design because, as you correctly advise, it does not set enough chain links into the gypsy and therefore jumps off. I don't have enough room in the locker to raise the windless, because of its design, so this weekend I am going to try and come up with something that I can design to work as a pressure arm. Good luck with your work this weekend and thanks again for your help.
Let me know how you fare with your windless.
Regards,
Gary
 
This is exactly why i mounted my windless on deck , and 4 inches higher than the deck so the chain is forced around the gypsy at least 2/3 of the way.
Being a manual windless I do have breaking control on a run away drop
Note 1/3 third of the back of the anchor locker is permanently in the down position. I cut the locker. Mounted the windless on the back door and glassed it shut and braced it underneath.. The rode and chain run up the back bulkhead and there are are 2 - 45 degree bulkhead stand offs inside so rode and chain do not pile against the rear bulkhead.
 

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Yes i just got done doing them from scratch down to the teak with heat gun and scraper than teak oil removal with Liquid called Snappy teak NU . if you dont remove the oil than the cetol sits on top of the teak and does not get a firm grip Than 60 40 cetol and paint thinner. than 90/10 cetol and thinner than 8 coats( FLA) on all of it. The cowl vent boxes and hand rails 384 !
And yes I have a custom Roller and carry 2 anchors. a 33 bruse 40 ft chain and 200 ft plat line and 20 Rocna all 5/16 chain 200 ft .
As i was doing my teak others at the dock wanted lessons on how to get it so pretty. Now there are 4 others that have used the same scrapers and snappy teak nu and cetol color. Looks like a new dock !
Now my neighbor a new sailor used the same scraper and a heat gun and he melted the blade and half the handle off into the water !! LOL some folks should not operate tools ! Hes a electrical enginer to !
 
Hey Stnick,

We are seriously considering a M384. I have a lot of Qs about them, but one was the ground tackle systems. I have only seen a few 384s with a windlass in looking at all the pics on line, and they have all been located aft of the chain locker? Of course I see the chain locker is all the way forward, and was wondering how/where a wndlass would dump the chain into the locker. I read in the forum there are "two lockers" an upper and a lower, is the lower where your windlass dumps the chain? Are you satisfied with how your arrangement is working? Thanks, :)
 
Hi WindandCs - on our 384, the 'upper' locker is just below the deck (under a hatch) and the 'lower' locker is below the upper locker.

Our new windlass works great ... its a Maxwell HRC-8 (aka HRCFF8) and is located inside the upper locker. I like this because it's out of the way when not in use. You don't see it on the deck. I was worried because the windlass is lower than the bow roller so the chain goes a little 'up' when exiting the windlass. It works fine with this model of windlass, though, because of the 'pressure arm', which keeps the chain pressed into the gypsy.

It dumps the chain through a hole & into the lower locker. The lower locker is also accessible from the v-berth down below ... through a cabinet door at the forward end of the v-berth. This was handy when our old manual windlass malfunctioned. We could easily get to the chain in the lower locker.

I did an emergency install this summer up in BC, so it doesn't look pretty yet. I'll be cleaning & painting the install to make it look professional this winter. Will post some photos then.

As I recall, I think on Lee's boat, the upper & lower lockers were merged into one locker, and then that was divided into two - one port & one starboard. So he can have two separate anchoring systems. And I think that's why his windlass is on the deck.

I've got two separate bow rollers, but my other anchor is only for emergencies, so I prefer to keep the windlass hidden below the deck. To each their own, though, and I understand the rationale for Lee's setup too.
 
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Hey Mark thanks for getting back! I was trying to figure out how the lockers were set up, I see now. Your set up sounds really clean, I'd like to see a pic! We are using a lofrans like Lee is, so his set up will probably work better for us. I'm happy to hear there's another locker at least, and some room for a windlass. I'm wondering if you think there might be enough room "in" the locker as it is, to install the lofrans "in" the locker and still close the hatch.
 
WindandCs - the upper locker has something like 8-9" of vertical clearance. Not much, but because my windlass is 'horizontal' it was enough for the windlass (approx 6"), and I added a 2" pad of Starboard to raise the windlass as high as possible. I don't think it's enough vertical room for a vertical windlass, though.

NorthChannel - no, the lower locker is not water tight. The closet door into the v-berth is slated and there are some other holes too. We were in some rough off-shore ocean conditions this summer and were routinely stuffing the bow into waves. Not surprisingly, this resulted in a small amount of leakage into the v-berth, where water was entering the finger hole in the deck hatch & then down through the chain hole into the lower locker. This fall when we off-shored coming home, I put a rubber plug in the finger hole & a rough plug in the chain hole. Had zero detectable leakage then.

We recorded this video as a joke (or inspiration?!): our friend can haul the anchor while drinking a beer. When our other friends were on the boat, they were manually grinding (our old manual windlass) up the 225' of chain & anchor only to have it all dump out. Note that this is after the 'emergency' install, so we still haven't painted and finished everything.

Click Here for video on Vimeo.
 
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One option I pursued was to combine my lockers and put a vertical windlass under the anchor locker hatch. Pics are spread out in Media by Rolf. I later split my locker fore and aft to accommodate a second bow anchor's rode. I chose this so I could knock down the chain pile from on deck, so the windlass would not interfere with lines, and so I could have a second locker for a second anchor. And so I could raise my anchor with electricity rather than muscles.
 
Yes Rolf, I've seen the pics, it looks like a great installation. We are more interested in a manual windlass, but am thinking of using the same technique/rebuild of the locker as you did... or similar. It would have to be a bit deeper, and have enough room to swing the arm, so it might not work? We also will probably be rigging a solent stay as you did, or possibly a full cutter rig? We are going to be using the boat for serious off shore work, and want to have a very sturdy rig with all options for carrying sail available. Perhaps, if you had some time we could have a chat on the phone about how you like/work your rig. Let me know if you're interested in that option. Thanks Rolf!
 
I'm still collecting parts for my forestay, so it is not yet rigged, but I have the stay, halyard, sheets, sail and deck fittings. I still need the running backs and its blocks, maybe a coachroof track, block setup (or not), and some way to manage it from the cockpit. I have sailed some larger boats with staysails in really heavy weather, and it is the right way to go, for sure. I'm still not sure how I'll be using my boat in the future, so I'm on hold. And please feel free to call me any time, leave a message if I don't answer - six 5 won for ate 5 7 niner seven 5 but I usually am around my phone :)
 
mpearson said:
WindandCs - the upper locker has something like 8-9" of vertical clearance. Not much, but because my windlass is 'horizontal' it was enough for the windlass (approx 6"), and I added a 2" pad of Starboard to raise the windlass as high as possible. I don't think it's enough vertical room for a vertical windlass, though.

NorthChannel - no, the lower locker is not water tight. The closet door into the v-berth is slated and there are some other holes too. We were in some rough off-shore ocean conditions this summer and were routinely stuffing the bow into waves. Not surprisingly, this resulted in a small amount of leakage into the v-berth, where water was entering the finger hole in the deck hatch & then down through the chain hole into the lower locker. This fall when we off-shored coming home, I put a rubber plug in the finger hole & a rough plug in the chain hole. Had zero detectable leakage then.

We recorded this video as a joke (or inspiration?!): our friend can haul the anchor while drinking a beer. When our other friends were on the boat, they were manually grinding (our old manual windlass) up the 225' of chain & anchor only to have it all dump out. Note that this is after the 'emergency' install, so we still haven't painted and finished everything.

Click Here for video on Vimeo.
Click to expand...

Have you done anything to the lower locker other than mount the windlass above it? Some seal it from the bilge and install other drainage, to keep it less smelly. I'm cost conscious, and would rather not unless it really does make a huge difference. If a freshwater rinse of the locker now and then is all it needs that might be better for me.
 
In Florida i anchor in shallow water 8-15 Feet so the manual windless is great to 80 feet of cranking ! If your going to be in deep water go Electric. More money and more work but as you age you will love the ease of pull up by a good electric windless.
 
On my boat, the anchor doors were eliminated and I only have pipe entrances from the windlass to both forward and aft lockers. I mounted a Sampson post the other day and found that the glass where the doors once were contains no wood. The bottom side has a sheet of stainless steel at least 1/8" thick which cover nearly the entire roof of both lockers.
 
I have to say Lee, I am considering it. We will be trying very hard to keep power equipment out of the equation, but a power windlass could be an exception.

Warren, what I've found in my last two boats, and the boats I grew up in both on the Chesapeake and in Fl, having a wash down on deck is worth the power it takes to run it. Just a small pump. Washing the chain and rode down as it comes up before the mud/bottom gets into the locker or the bilge is the key to cleanliness.

Rolf, I'll try to give you a call tomorrow.
 
WindandCs said:
Hey Stnick,

We are seriously considering a M384. I have a lot of Qs about them, but one was the ground tackle systems. I have only seen a few 384s with a windlass in looking at all the pics on line, and they have all been located aft of the chain locker? Of course I see the chain locker is all the way forward, and was wondering how/where a wndlass would dump the chain into the locker. I read in the forum there are "two lockers" an upper and a lower, is the lower where your windlass dumps the chain? Are you satisfied with how your arrangement is working? Thanks, :)
Click to expand...
Hello Are you consider either of the models on the hard in Deltaville? I am in Maryland Feel free to contact me... paul@foerfront.com
 
On my Morgan I do have a wash down pump . In the port Vee birth foot locker a thru hull and a water pump. Goes into a flex tube into the anchor locker . In the anchor locker its protected by a Pvc pipe to a deck hose fitting near the windless. Yes its Salt water wash down. My fresh water is to valuable for a wash down .
 
pmf44 said:
Hello Are you consider either of the models on the hard in Deltaville? I am in Maryland Feel free to contact me... paul@foerfront.com
Click to expand...
Your in the sailing capital of the country There are sailors every where there !
Yes Anchor locker Top locker is like 12 inches deep bottom locker is almost 3 feet deep . I cut , see the Photos ,the locker lid across the back 13 inches and glassed it in . Than cut the locker bottom compleatly out ! I mounted the windless on this back section. Chain goes down the back wall of the locker.
If your going to charter this boat out go with a maxwell electric windless. and provide a anchor wash down
I added a second anchor roller and the windless easily services both anchors.
 
An alternative to putting the windlass in the on deck locker is to move it aft and preserve the locker for a secondary anchor. The chain is led to the lower locker with 2 1/2" copper plumbers pipe. The lower locker is divided into two sections. The aft section holds 90' of 5/16 G4 chain and the forward section holds the rest of the 160' of chain. We rarely need more then the 90' of chain. When we do, the rest pays out normally but has to be shifted forward from the V-bunk when retrieving. The on deck locker holds the secondary Fortress FX23 with 25' of 5/16" chain and 225' of 1/2" line. It also holds the 300' of 5/8" rode for the storm anchor. The storm anchor, a Fortress FX37, is stored in a locker under the V-bunk.
 

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Hey Jim, Nice installation! That sounds like a good fix. Does the copper pipe go down at an angle from where it enters, and cut through the upper corner of the V-berth? It looks like the entrance would be behind the forward bulkhead?
 
The pipe pieces needed are a floor flange, two 45's and about 3' of pipe. All 2 1/2" copper. I also think PVC,schedule 80, would work. Where the chain enters through the deck is the floor flange to a 45 angled forward. Then a straight section of pipe to the second 45 angled down. A notch has been cut in the bulkhead at the forward end of the V-bunk. In the bottom of the on deck locker there is a covered hawse pipe which allows the chain pile to be knocked down with an oak stick if need be.

All the electric components, including the windlass solenoid are installed on the V-bunk overhead and are well protected from the elements. The controls for the windlass are removable hand held remotes on the foredeck and in the cockpit. The advantages of the handhelds is that you are free to move around on the deck to work the anchor up and down and because you always have one hand holding the remote, you have a 50% less chance of getting a hand or fingers damaged by the machine.

Attached are a few photos which show the installation.

Jim
 

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JIM you did a wonderful winch installation job. Looks great and works great ! Thats one big girl sitting up there. Ill bet she pulls up that chain just fine !
 
We just completed our first season cruising on our 383 up here in Maine. We adore the 383's sea keeping qualities as well as all the great storage. While new to forums like this, I am getting old in the spine and need to pick a windlass program for Strange Brew.

We usually anchor in less than 50 feet but I really want to have an electric solution. It would be nice to avoid major construction. It looks like the PO removed some but not all of the lead ingots.

I am having a hard time choosing between above or below deck installs. I have viewed systems by Jim, Rolf, and the one on Maluhia. Is there any consensus on which of these solutions has been most effective? I like the clean deck on Rolf's system and the unit itself looks less expensive than Jim's unit. But I also like a bit of copper pipe on board and preserving the forward hatch. Admittedly I am at the beginning stages of this project.

I hope this query is not too annoying... I welcome PMs or conversations on the phone. Thank you all for your wisdom.
 
Curtis
I didn't mention it in my post but my on deck windlass is a Lofrans Tigres, made in Italy. It is one very powerful machine. I have two shoulders that have been repaired with surgery so that windlass means we can still cruise the way we like. It was purchased through Defender's in Connecticut. The installation was fairly straightforward. The important thing to me was preserving the on deck locker for a secondary anchor & rode. If this kind of installation appeals to you, you can reach me at: saildana382@msn.com or: 516-459-3008. I am always happy to talk boats and stuff.

Jim
 
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