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Vangs and Tangs

C

capnbrown

Larry Brown
Question I'm guessing should be directed to the old Charlie 38 owners out there. I want to install a boom vang at some point and am not sure what must be done. I did a search for a tang that I can attach to the boom but only come across small ones that might be used for a Hobie etc. Is this a custom only part that I'd have to go to a rigger or metal shop to have made to order? Or is there a supplier with a part number any of you have already ordered that I might get from you?

Thanks guys,

Larry
 
Lots of boom vangs show up in a Google search-- you shouldn't have any trouble finding what you need . Decide whether you want a block and tackle (see Haarken)or rigid (see Garhauer. Should be no trouble to rivet or dill and tap into your mast and boom.

Two points based on my use of a vang on M382:
1) Don't know if same is true on CM38, but using the vang attached to the rear side if the mast completely negates using the main cabin hatch. I installed the eye so I could vang there but found that I never use it, and it isn't a very good angle to give very good leverage.

2)A preventer is just as useful and more functional than a vang-- use a 4-part block and tackle taken down to a fitting on the rail or stanchion pad under the boom, and you can get all the vang power you want, plus the safety of a preventer which has saved my butt more than once. My tackle was a ready-made thing (probably from West Marine or such) with swivel snap shackles and a cam cleat, uses 1/2" line and is perfect for the M382.

Good luck-- you will like having a vang; it makes a reach much more powerful.

Carl Miller
M382 Courante Annapolis
 
Just remembered-- the 4-part tackle is a Shaeffer part, but holy moley did it get expensive--SCH3513 is almost $500 but I don't remember paying half that! But This PN SCH3513 is exactly what I was writing about.

Hold onto your wallet! And shop aroound...

Carl Miller
 
It is the tang in particular that I don't see one that would be wide enough for my boom. The original configuration for my boom was a horse shoe looking thing that could allow the boom to roll inside to furl the sail around the boom. That thing doesn't grip the boom very well and wants to slide forward. The main has slab reefing now so I don't need the boom to roll as it did. So I'm looking for the tang that can be mounted to the boom. Although if I went with a rigid vang I believe it has a bracket that mounts on the boom.

I like the idea of the rigid vang but don't like the price. Not futsing with a topping lift and not having it dance around the leech would be nice.
 
Thanks Carl. These guys have it all. I like the flush mount plate with pendant. How about the mast attachment point? They have a lot of pieces with a radius to match particular mast manufacturer's masts. Does anyone know who made the original Charley boats' masts?
 
Larry

as i recall the mast radius at the front and back sections is 7 inch. Draw a semi circle on apiece of card board and cut it out to see if it fits. if not try bigger/smaller radius and try again. it dosent take much time and you will be right on for your mast.

bill buebel, shadow, 381
 
The difficult installation is the boom. The first is placement and then the actual construction into and through the boom. There can be extreme stresses placed on the boom and it is very important to do it right!
Jim
 
Larry: I put a boom bale on my 382 boom--make sure there is a compression tube inside the boom that the bolt goes through. I did not attach to mast. I put a padeye on the deck just aft of the mast, with a backing plate made by my machinist that had an ear on it. Then I put a plate with ear on the mast, inside the boat and put a turnbuckle between the backing plate and the mast ear. Result: my vang is tied to the mast, but my deck is also tied to the mast. My vang is just two high quality 4-1 fiddle blocks with snap shackles from Garhauer--I would not pay for a "vang" system, unless you are going for a rigid vang. And I can turn my vang into a rail "preventer" just by shifting it down to the toe rail genoa track.
 
That's a good point. Have you done this Jim? What is your take on the best way to install? I assumed drilling and tapping the aluminum would be the trick but there is a lot of load on the plate at times. I would imagine it would be best to have backing washers and nuts but don't see how that could be done 5 or so feet down the boom.

One of the solutions on that site was basically a track and car. That seems like it would at least spread the load across a number of drill and tap screws but then I'd be making a long track just for that purpose which seems kludgy.

Terry, how did you place the compression sleeve down the boom?
 
Good question. I know I didn't crawl down the boom. Now I wonder if I put in the compression tube or was just careful not to over tighten the through bolt. I remember taking the boom to the machinist, now, so maybe I didn't do any thing--he did. But--I guess I assumed he drilled the holes big enough for the compression tube to fit in and basically put it and the bolt in at the same time? the bale is big enough, that its ends are what take the pressure against the boom and the compression tube. But now, man, I am getting too old, so I don't remember. .
 
i suggest you consider a bolt horizontly thru the boom. a 1/2 in bolt will have sufficent loading area and a yoke will devide the load on each side by half. since you are talking about a tension load only, the yoke could be made from 1*19 wire w/ thimbles to load into the bolt. you can make it at west marine.

when i installed new track on my boom the material of the boom reacted like 6061-t6 al about 1/8 in thick.

i intend to install mid boom tending and will use the above.

if you want to calculate the loads, the max load of any sail is taken as 1 lb / sq ft.

bill buebel, 381 shadow
 
<a href="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1" target="_top">http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1</a>|118|319697|311639|2611|311627&id=103813
 
Take a look at Garhauer. They will make custom fittings for your mast and boom and at a reasonable price.

I've used their rigid vang for years on Oconee and love it.

Fairwinds and Rum Drinks,
Vic C
 
One more idea...

I moved my traveler to the cabin top (again Garhauer) and used kevlar straps to attach the block to the boom instead of bails. No extra hole that can weaken the boom.

It has worked well for the last 4 years including a winter in the Bahamas.

Vic
 
A question, what will the intense sun do to the kevlar over time? My experience tells me the sun degrades almost everything.
Jim
 
Jim,

I agree - sun kills.

However, they have lasted for 4 years and seem to show little sign of breaking. Second, there are three of them to spread the load and add a bit of redundancy. If one lets go then the other 2 should hold until I can replace it.Third, I have spare aboard.

I like putting hole in the boom less than the possibility of a strap letting go.

Vic
 
Three is good! Backup is good for any system on a boat.

I rigged up a preventer that is controlled from the cockpit. A line is run from a block/jam cleat forward to a mid point block at the bow and then back to the end of the boom. It has to moved after gybing. It is a good preventer.
Jim
 
Hi:
I know I'm reopening an old thread. Looks like Santa might bring us a vang and traveler for Christmas. I searched the archives on vangs and travelers. Good advice as always.

I'm looking at a Garhauer rigid vang to do double duty as a vang and topping lift. We've used a block & tackle arrangement to the rail but it is too slow and labor intensive for shorthanded sailing and racing. I'm looking for specific advice - Which model? How did you make the mast and boom connections? What kind of reinforcement? Since the gooseneck is relatively close to the deck, if the vang attaches to the mast above the mast boot, either the vang will be fairly short or the angle will be shallow requiring more tension. Do you have any clearance problems with the cabin top hatch? Photos are always helpful.

As for the traveler - I plan to keep it in the current M382 cockpit location. What amount of purchase did you use on the control lines? Are they cleated on each side of the cockpit? Did you turn the control lines up or back at the ends? On our race boat, the traveler control lines cleat on the traveler car (it has a tiller) but on the M382 it seems like this would be hard to reach around the binnacle.

Thanks.
-Alan
 
As folks answer, I would like to know if putting on a new line control traveler on a 382 requires replacing the track--or can I get cars, etc, that will run on the old track? thanks.
 
Terry
I second Vic's prof's for Garhauer. I am very happy with my new mid boom 383 traveler I got from them. They will do custom work if needed. Tremendous value compared to the "usuals". My 2 cents.
Dave
 
Terry -

I believe the existing traveler track was made by a manufacturer no longer in business, but others might have more info.

I've asked Santa for a Garhauer traveller, but I think Mrs. Santa might end up giving me a tie or scarf, or something equally useless on a boat. (Sigh)

Matt
 
Hey Matt
A scarf isn't so bad ...you can always waive another sailor down for help! :)
 
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Alan,
I placed a new Garhauer traveler in the cockpit of my 382. I forget the exact model but will take a picture as soon as I get down to the boat. If you are in Houston, the boat is at Watergate Marina.

Jose
 
Jose--I justcommuncated with Garhauer about this. I was considering a MT-UB2 traveller, with internal controls. They said that an MT-UB1 would work, because of the ease of end of boom sheeting. It is not as hefty as the UB2. Well, I may get the heavier duty one, anyway, for $100 or so more. I tend to over rig the boat, so when it blows 40 or so, I don't worry about things breaking. I will be interested in what you have.
 
Thanks all for the info.

Jose, Would appreaciate photos and model # if you can find it. I'm in Atlanta but travel a bit and if I pass thru Houston, I'll look you up.

Terry, I thought about adding blocks and control lines to the existing traveller but figured there is a lot of friction to overcome. Thanks for the model#. MT-UB does have a cleaner look. Are you planning to face the cam cleats forward or aft? I thought about a small riser to provide more clearance for our seat cushions. Are you buying thru Garhauer or a dealer?
 
<a href="http://www.harken.com/traveler/traveler.php" target="_top">http://www.harken.com/traveler/traveler.php</a>

Check out the high track.

<a href="http://www.harken.com/charts/bigboattrackdim.php" target="_top">http://www.harken.com/charts/bigboattrackdim.php</a>

And options:

<a href="http://www.harken.com/charts/Midrange_Big-Boat_Traveler_Purchase.php" target="_top">http://www.harken.com/charts/Midrange_Big-Boat_Traveler_Purchase.php</a>
 
Alan,
The traveler I have appears to be a variation on the MT-2TP. There are double blocks on the ends and the car, but last block ( turns the line up ) and the cam cleats are mounted on the cockpit sides just aft of the seats. I will probably go to the boat tommorrow, will endeavour not to forget the camera.
There is not a whole lot of room where the old traveler was mounted and this arrangement fit perfectly. They might still have the information of this build at Garhauer, it was ordered from them by Jim Buchanan ( of Buchanan Marine in Kemah)several years ago.

I hope this helps

Jose
 
I am forever catching my self on the jam cleats of our traveler that point aft along the traveler track. Does this angle for the jam cleats work for you?
This pic shows what I have in terms of cleats and placement.

Does it seem strong enough? Could the cleats pull off?

Seems like it might be a good solution before I turn my legs into shreds!

17385.jpg
 
Jose:
Thanks for the photos. I think the vertical arrangement maks a lot of sense - can be reached by helmsman behind traveler or crew in front and less likely to be a leg biter like John described.

I've been thinking about a cleat arrangement like is used on the J-22 - see http://sailingorg.smugmug.com/J22-1/The-boat/865-Deck-Layout/7029020_QzhjH#450261578_KZBCd and http://www.apsltd.com/gallerypopup.aspx?GalleryID=146
This allow you to adjust and cleat the traveler from either side.

John:
I see the problem you face - thanks for pointing it out. The load on the traveler cleat as mounted in Jose's photos is in-line with the cleat rather than a load that would try to pull it out of the deck. The load on the turning block is greater. Howeverwith 4:1 purchase on the traveler - how much load are you talking about? How hard is it for you to pull the traveler car when the wind is really blowing? Properly sized bolts and big fender washers or backing plate should be fine.
-Alan
 
Alan,
I used to have a J-22 and put a cam cleat arrangement on it just like the one shown in the second link you posted. This arrangement allows for locking down the leeward cleat from the windward side of the boat. It was a cheap solution instead of putting a whole new windward cleating harken traveler system. On a J-22 this is a neccesity due to boat balance concerns, you cannot go to the low side to do this without loosing speed. On a Morgan this is not a concern and I see no need for adding hardware, taking up space, and creating something you can scrape on.
As far as load on the cam cleat, my setup has a a 6 or 7 to one pull ratio, the load on the cleat is relatively light, and it is a shear load on the fasteners, no pull on the fibergalss. In twenty knots of breeze I can adjust the traveler with one hand.

Jose
 
Jim,
I would be interested in comparing the cost of both systems. Harken makes great gear and is usually half the weight of the Garhauer systems, they use high quality plsatics instead of metals. I gues the depth of your pockets and your desire to minimize weight would determine what you wind up using.

Jose
 
Beyond cost is how, where, and how long you plan to own and sail your boat. I like the Harken quality and technical backing of their product but there lots of good rigging components sold.
Jim
 
Jim provided a link above to Harken's Hi-Beam traveler track. Here is a photo of one installed on my 384 - I love it.

I did comparison shop with Garhauer, and could have saved some money if I had gone that way. They were quoting 6wk delivery vs Harken's immediate availability, and I was ready to start the job.

Couldn't be happier with how it turned out.


17403.png

Harken
 
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