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Torpedo Tubes

Can any tell me if all the 383 came with the tube below deck aft that the deck drain,and other drains are connected to was a standard item.
Has anyone had any problem with it coming lose has anyone taken there's out and plug the holes. Thanks
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
Hi Hardin - The tube you speak of is affectionately called a Torpedo Tube on our forum. And yes, they were standard on all 382, 383, 384 Morgans.
If you search for Torpedo Tube on this forum you'll see a lot of discussions. They bother some of folks, but personally, I don't mind them. Ours had some tiny leaks/seeps that we fixed very easily. Some people have removed them and/or re-worked them.

I changed your thread title to Torpedo Tubes for easier reference. I hope you don't mind.
 
Hi Harden,

Please see also my post under cockpit scupper drains regarding for photos of my removal of my torpedo tube and the wet core and hull delamination caused by it. I am posting here an update on my progress. The hull is repaired on both sides.
IMG_2142 jpg.jpg

I removed the plastic cockpit scuppers and the plastic deck scuppers both of which were plumbed into the torpedo.

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I repaired the deck and cockpit sole defects. I installed 2" Marelon thru hulls in place of the previous cockpit scuppers, and plumbed them to new 2" bronze thru hulls where the torpedo used to be.
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These through hulls are above the waterline but only by about 6 or 7 inches so to meet ABYC standards they would need seacocks. However I didn't have enough height for seacocks so I went without but plumbed with heavy wet exhaust hose. If I had place them low enough to allow for seacocks, then they would not have been "readily accessible if reachable at all. I crossed the hoses in an attempt to alleviate water in the cockpit on the lee side when the scupper is below waterline.

For the deck scuppers which were plumbed inboard and also to the torpedo tube, I placed bronze thru hulls through the bulwarks. I much prefer seaworthiness over cosmetics, and I believe the intention of plumbing them into the boat was to prevent hull streaking.
IMG_2236 JPEG.jpgIMG_2201 JPG.jpg
 
On Morning Star it seems everything but the "kitchen sink" was plumbed to the torpedo, a huge mess of hoses: shower sump (without anti- siphon vented loop), ice box, deck scuppers, cockpit scuppers, manual bilge pump (without vented loop), Access was thru the sail locker and the quarterberth engine room access. (The torpedo tube access was thru the aft cockpit locker with the rudder removed)
IMG_2174 JPG.jpg

IMG_2172 JPG.jpgIMG_2031 JPG.jpg

A manual bilge pump which was plumbed to the torpedo and located in the aft cockpit locker was replumbed to a thru hull just below the aft
gunwale.
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terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
The bronze thru-hulls are very attractive, but of course they will weather to green. The picture of the old tube reminds me of the time the silly rubber hose between the two PVC pieces came undone. We were under power and water poured in. We only realized it when the bilge filled and shorted out the propane alarm. (I now have a high water alarm and rebuilt the torpedo tubes.) I now think I should have done something such as you did. Nice job.
 
I suspect your frightening experience of hull flooding was because hoses are not meant to clamp to PVC pipe. I wish more owners would realize how risky the torpedo and its plumbing is. Every aspect of it violates ABYC standards. Hopefully your experience will bring more attention to the dangers of being torpedoed, as you were, and hopefully perhaps due to luck, we will not hear of a sinking.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
We filled ours in and put in two big bronze t-hulls. I did not like that they were underwater while underway with out a valve. The other issue I had was they were noisy and spit water up when in a seaway. The other job I did at that time was to increase the diameter of the side deck drains and lead them overboard above the waterline. This really improved the drain time and keeps them from plugging as easy.
 
Hi David,

Thanks for your insights into the torpedo problem. I am curious how you filled the torpedos and also where you put the thru hulls and whether or not you have enough room for seacocks which are readily accessible. Interesting that the deck scuppers were inadequate. Historically bulwarks had multiple large scuppers in them and in many instances the bulwarks were separated from the deck by a space (essentially a raised plank). Considering the volume and weight of seawater that can be held on deck by the bulwarks, and that the only other drainage is through the single chock on each side, I am happy to have improved the deck drainage, probable still not enough for proper seaworthiness.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
HIgh John,
It actually was the hull to deck seam that started that refit back 2012. We glassed it shut so the hull needed painting anyway. We also glassed the two sides of the hull together, replaced the rudder, and filled the holding tank (brutal) with high density foam putting a plastic tank under the v-berth. I filled the torpedo holes with solid fiberglass just like a hull repair. The two seacocks ended up in the engine box aft of the engine and forward of the muffler, one port and starboard. You can see the filled holes in the pics.

A gap like traditional wood bulwarks is tough to pull off in fiberglass. The reality of really nasty conditions is that water doesn't stay trapped on deck for long as it gets launched over the bulwark on the next roll; it's only a handful of gallons in the corner. The real gainer in what we have done with the side deck drains is that it doesn't clog as easily. I really love your solution for the side deck drain better, it's foolproof.

I will post some pics of those thu hulls in the engine box soon because we are getting a new engine! Headed to the yard Thursday to install a Yanmar 4JH45 with a max prop!

When I think about all the jobs that have happened and those still to come it's overwhelming. But we have chipped away at it over the years taking on the big stuff every handful of years as time, budget and energy allows. We have managed to get a lot of cruising in between in a very reliable and afforadable boat becasue of our efforts. I just looked at the used market closely before we pulled the trigger on the engine. When I looked at the options, everything that is affordable for us will have the type of issues that we have sorted out over the years. It would be like starting over except with a mortgage so we are keeping what we know and making her better when we can with cash.
--
 

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terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
David, what a job. Glassing over the hull/deck joint was smart, although so far I don't seem to have leaks. What did you do after--replace the teak with the white planks? Starboard or something else? Must have been a real hard job getting to all the genoa sheet bolts behind main cabin cabinetry I also note your drogue chainplates. Can't conceive how you got into the aft locker to bolt those down. I put mine flush on the aft side deck/ hull deck joint about even with the steering wheel location. They have to stick out from the hull a bit for the attachment points.. Maybe not as good as your placement, but they have massive backing plates so I think I am ok. Other questions: I note the lower drain hole for the anchor locker. Doesn't the locker fill with water when on a starboard tack? How do you deal with that? Also, what kind of self steering device is that? Thanks.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
HI Terry,

When I look at those pictures now I think, I wish I had a fraction of that energy these days!

Our hull to deck was leaking badly and most importantly it leaked into MY clothes locker. I remeber getting so mad that my clothes got wet for the umptinth time that I went on deck and broke a piece of the teak off so that the job got started! It took two winter boat yard sessions before that job was done completely. The teak was in bad shape and I want to cruise not varnish so I replaced it with Azex pvc plastic from the big box stores. I painted it with Kiwi grip non-skid paint, it's great stuff and in fact we now have the whole deck painted with it. Since I knew the teak was going, I cut the track off with a sawzall. I just found a couple of cut off track bolts while deep cleaning saloon lockers the other day! I did not put a track back on. I installed a handful of pad eyes at points where my sails lead. My genoa has a really high clew and so when it furls the lead does not change, this is such a cool feature for a cruising boat that sadly few sailmakers know about. I really only use one pad eye on each side. I filled a bucket with fasteners that went into the boat at the rail, hundreds! I bonded a square fiberglass tube (pic 701) to the rail to replace the teak strip that supported the cap rail on its outboard edge. The azex cap got bonded down with polysulfide with only a few fasteners shot up from the bottom thru the fiberglass box tube (pic 848). So the only holes that went through the boat are for the handful of pad eyes. Instead of nuts for the pad eyes I had backing plates made up with threaded holes(pic 800). These plates were glued to the underside of the deck when installed. To remove a pad eye you just unscrew it from on deck no need to have someone below! The cap rail design has now seen 10 years of hard use and has stood up beautifully. If a plank were to get crushed it will be a simple matter to remove and replace it or if its a small ding it can be filled with putty and painted. We just put our first maintenance coat of kiwi grip on it 10 years later otherwise there has been zero work and zero leaks!

The drogue chain plates were tough. My father in law sails with us and has helped with the work too. He is a little guy and somehow I got him to climb in there for me! He bruised his rib getting that done for us. The windvane is a Cape Horn and that big horizontal tube goes straight through the laz so he had to work around that too!

Early in our adventures I had the bilge fill up to the sole level. Not many things are as scary as seeing water coming up through the sole! Fortunately we were near our intended anchorage. We were smashing upwind all day and the water came in through the anchor hawse while the bilge pump failed. I would not have believed how much water can come in that way untill I saw it with my own eyes. We were lucky to learn these lessons this way and while still close to home. So I upgraded my pumps and added an alarm. Then I made the anchor locker watertight by adding a removable aluminium door behind the wood door. I glassed the bulkhead to the deck and drained the upper locker into the lower locker. Then drained the lower locker straight overboard. I put a flapper type check valve (pic 798) over the drain to stop water from entering, if or when it doe's get in it will drain when the boat stands back up. That whole anchor locker mod has stood the test of time and hard use flawlessly.

I am greatful for my education at the Landing school of yacht design and boatbuilding it has given me the skills and confidence to take on the tough jobs. I am really greatful for my wife Kristen who has often worked right beside me. In fact she taught me how to get a perfect paint job. When we awlgripped the hull she kept telling me to thin the paint to the max allowed. Then she rolled it out really thin. I took four coats to cover but the results were amazing!

Thanks for your intrest and I hope this info will be useful to some. Let me know if there are more questions.
 

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terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
David: I was not familiar with the kind of check valve you installed for the anchor locker. Can you recall the manufacturer? I have never seen a flat one like you appear to have. Or maybe I am misreading the photos..How much of the chain locker did you lose by putting in a floor?
I did the same as you on your padeyes for my stanchion bases. I noticed the flat part of the bases were bending outward. I had my machinist add 1/8" stainless to the bases and then I had him make threaded backing plates that are glued with Sikaflex adhesive to the inside of the bulwarks. Not an easy job to access them all to get the old bolts out. On several we had to drill out the topside part of the bolt. And, amazingly, no two of the stanchion bases had similar hole spacing. Each backing plate had to be matched to the particular base. Hard to believe the firm Morgan hired for the stainless work did not use a jig of some sort. Then, since I had assumed they would match, I had removed them without marking them, so we had to match each to the bulwark locations.
Finally, after seeing how much water goes down my hause pipe offshore, I am going to plug it somehow; for long trips, probably take off the chain and use one of the new little orange rubber plugs. Or I may try modeling clay.
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
Terry - I'm kind of glad to hear someone else has had that issue: After a couple days of stuffing our bow into some large waves and having blue water sloshing on the forward deck, we had a surprising amount of water go into the the anchor locker, down the hawse pipe, and into the bilge.

As a result, i've sealed up the hatch as best as I can. And before we head offshore this spring, I'm going to put some foam rubber plugs where the chain goes into the anchor locker, and into the hawse pipe. I think that will cut out almost all of the infiltration.

An aside: I had a new factory sealed bi-color navigation light (an expensive one!) mounted up on the bow pulpit, fairly high. That thing was full of water and shorted out after our voyage. It was supposed to be totally waterproof ;) . At night, I could see the light shining under the water as we stuffed the bow. At least the manufacturer replaced it for free.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
Terry,
I carry 150' of chain. Key to making this work is a big hole in the upper locker floor that I cut so that I can reach the windlass handle down in and knock the chain pile over.
I did the stantion bases like that too. I learned that you only want to have 2 fasteners going into any tapped plate, real world tolerances being what they are.
White Modeling clay will work and be easier than removing a shackle on the daily. The thing is even if you are just going to the next inlet down the coast it's pretty comon to take water over the bow in the inlet. I always want to have my hook ready in that enviroment so not too keen on removing the shackle.
 
HIgh John,
It actually was the hull to deck seam that started that refit back 2012. We glassed it shut so the hull needed painting anyway. We also glassed the two sides of the hull together, replaced the rudder, and filled the holding tank (brutal) with high density foam putting a plastic tank under the v-berth. I filled the torpedo holes with solid fiberglass just like a hull repair. The two seacocks ended up in the engine box aft of the engine and forward of the muffler, one port and starboard. You can see the filled holes in the pics.

A gap like traditional wood bulwarks is tough to pull off in fiberglass. The reality of really nasty conditions is that water doesn't stay trapped on deck for long as it gets launched over the bulwark on the next roll; it's only a handful of gallons in the corner. The real gainer in what we have done with the side deck drains is that it doesn't clog as easily. I really love your solution for the side deck drain better, it's foolproof.

I will post some pics of those thu hulls in the engine box soon because we are getting a new engine! Headed to the yard Thursday to install a Yanmar 4JH45 with a max prop!

When I think about all the jobs that have happened and those still to come it's overwhelming. But we have chipped away at it over the years taking on the big stuff every handful of years as time, budget and energy allows. We have managed to get a lot of cruising in between in a very reliable and afforadable boat becasue of our efforts. I just looked at the used market closely before we pulled the trigger on the engine. When I looked at the options, everything that is affordable for us will have the type of issues that we have sorted out over the years. It would be like starting over except with a mortgage so we are keeping what we know and making her better when we can with cash.
--

Hi David,

What great work and ingenuity! When I learned that you were a fellow Landing School alumnus I felt some proud comradery! I completed the small boat program with Paul Barton in 2000, and worked as a wooden boatbuilder for 20 years in Maine. When I see all the work you and the others are doing on your boats, it gives me strength to push on with my projects.

I also find that the only place for the seacocks for the cockpit would be the aft engine space. Good to learn that she spills much of her deck wash over the bulwarks. I am curious as to what led you to replace the rudder. How did you know it was bad? I have been considering opening mine up to inspect the welds, otherwise mine shows no bad signs.

I agree with you that the cost of replacing one of our restored boats would be astronomic and unaffordable to most of us. There is a great satisfaction in going to sea in a boat that one has restored or built. I still remember the feeling of launching and sailing the Haven 12 1/2 with my fellow LS students, one that we built together.

I think that I already feel your father in law's pain as I have spent far too many hours inside the aft cockpit locker and now wonder how I will install my offset Hydrovane to the transom from inside the lazarette.

Hats off to you and your wife!

John
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
Hey John,

That's awesome, I graduated in 1998. I did the cruising boat course, we built a LS 26. The next year I went through the design program. The third year I was a teaching assistant for the design program but Lyman-Morse highered me away before I finished that year. I have always worked in boats since and not a day goes by where I don't use what I learned there. I really enjoyed Paul and all the other great educators at that school!

The rudder always leaked rusty water when we hauled out and the ones from foss are bigger and not that expensive in the big picture. The shaft was pitted at the stuffing box so would not seal, sadly I could not get the new one to seal either. I am looking into modifiy the stuffing box into just a bearing and then sealing it with a PSS dripless, stay tuned. Our old rudder was probably fine but Steering is just after keeping the water out in the priority list. Again, we refit as we go so the cost has been spread out. Ten years later I am glad I spent money on the rudder, it's one less thing to worry about.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
I also got a new rudder from Foss, even though the only rust I found in the old one (drilling some holes to look) was on the main metal plate and a little on the welds to the shaft. No significant rusty water leakage. But it was 40 years old.

My only complaint with the new Foss rudder is there is not as much room for a Delrin bearing at the gudgeon, meaning I had to use a substantially thinner bearings.

Tides marine makes a replacement screw on cap for the bronze rudder post housing/stuffing box. You have to know the thread count and I don't know how to figure that out. But it looks to be a good system,. John English has one.
 
David,

What a small world story! If my math is correct were were both there at the same time, your 3rd year and my first. I remember when Olin Stephens visited and I had a chance to question him and we had our photo taken with him and I had him sign his book for me.

I have just re hung my existing (original) rudder, but share the same concerns and place the same importance in it. In fact the emergency rudder capability of the Hydrovane influenced my choice of it over the Monitor. I will add a new one to our list for someday. I have not done any exploration of the welds yet. I do have some pitting on the post. We shall see how she seals with the new packing. Does Foss have the design for the replacement rudder or did you have to provide it? What grade of stainless did you specify?

John
 
I also got a new rudder from Foss, even though the only rust I found in the old one (drilling some holes to look) was on the main metal plate and a little on the welds to the shaft. No significant rusty water leakage. But it was 40 years old.

My only complaint with the new Foss rudder is there is not as much room for a Delrin bearing at the gudgeon, meaning I had to use a substantially thinner bearings.

Tides marine makes a replacement screw on cap for the bronze rudder post housing/stuffing box. You have to know the thread count and I don't know how to figure that out. But it looks to be a good system,. John English has one.
Terry,

Any chance of "steeling" a bit of space for the thicker bearing from the new rudder or from the gudgeon?

John
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Well, not easily. I admit, however, that I did not think of having someone machine down the bronze slightly. Foss Foam in Florida has molds for the 384 rudder. I had already modified my 382 rudder to look like a 384. Slightly more area. Foss Foam is easy to work with. They use 316 stainless. Al Walker runs it, altho his email address is "bob." I can't remember why.
 

Warren Holybee

Active Member
I have been thinking of ways to reduce weight (substantially) lately. The rudder comes to mind as being both heavy and at one of the ends. I wonder if I replace it if I can get one with a carbon fiber construction, especially getting rid of the stainless for carbon? And I wonder how much weight savings that would have.

Added to the list of things I won't do when I win the lottery and buy a superyacht instead...
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Foss claims their rudder has neutral bouyancy because of all the 20 lb foam. One person can pick it up and move it, something I could not do with the old Morgan rudder (filled with a hard resin slurry). You only need a new rudder if there is rusty water leaking out and if investigation shows significant weld rust. The 382 rudders were built by Morgan, not Foss, and I think they did a good job. I probably did not have to replace mine, but I was in a money-spending mood. The pandemic closed down my ocean cruising plans, however. One other thing: I read that a very smooth rudder significantly improves efficiency. I spent a lot of time sanding and smoothing mine, even polishing the anti-fouling paint. But have not determined if it helped.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
John,
What a small world indeed! That visit from Olin was a highlight for me!
Thank you for posting that rudder bearing and seal that John English installed. I have been designing that same idea and was going to have one fabricted. That part from tides looks like a easy and effective solution, I will be installig that.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
Hey Terry, I had the yard look at it and they said 2.5" straight pipe thread, same thread as a thru hull. He did not get me a thread count but said it's standard.
I am going another route. I am going to remove the bronze port and glass in one of these:
The folks at tides recommended this and so did my yard so I am going to listen.
One thing that is driving all this for me is my awareness of what I should not do any more. I tried to loosen the rudder packing nut the other day and my back said WTFO! I stopped and had the yard do it. The access is too hard for me at this point (it was too hard 15 years ago) so I want to do it right and be done. No more stuffing box. I want a BOMB PROOF upper bearing and water tight seal.
Sure I could make a bearing out of the bronze port with epoxy but then it may leak between the bronze and glass. The fasteners that hold the bronze port in place have corroded away and I can't see the condition of the bronze buried in the hull so I am going all new and all glass.
 
David,
I've had the Tides rudder bearing on the existing rudder port for over 20 years. Check out Gougeon Bros for how to inject an epoxy mixture into a worn rudder post. Did that too.
 
Terry,
It was back in the early 90's I have it buried somewhere but here is the gist. The rudder post casting as viewed from underneath has significant annular space for injecting an epoxy mixture. Drop the rudder, I put mold release on the rudder post. cleaned out the inside of the casting and reinserted the rudder. I sealed off the bottom with modeling clay, drilled holes top and bottom to allow a mixture of resin, graphite powder and colloidal silica to be injected. The result formed a long actual bearing surface whereas the stuffing box and packing in my opinion was did nothing. I'll muck around in the archives to see if this article.
 
I used the RST 1750 back in '96
No wrench needed.
Still looking for the epoxy solution.
 

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terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Thanks very much. I didn't think I had a fiberglass tube for the rudder post. I thought the post came up through a big bronze fitting/tube like thing. I can see the base above the rudder on the outside which them sticks up into the boat and ends at the threaded orifice in to which I put my flax packing. But you raise an important point. One may need to do something like this in order to use the Strong cap. Without the packing in the port's orifice, perhaps the rudder would have insufficient lateral support. That means a much bigger job than just screwing a new cap on the top of the rudder shaft port.
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
David,
I've had the Tides rudder bearing on the existing rudder port for over 20 years. Check out Gougeon Bros for how to inject an epoxy mixture into a worn rudder post. Did that too.
Thanks John, That is a good result and I am sure it will work for me too. My advisers (Tides and yard owner) and I are more sure about replacing it all with a tube system. I will keep ya'll posted.
Terry, Tides told me that the thread on part they sell doesn't have a strong enough bearing to work on it's own in this application, You would need to make the bronze part into a bearing like John did by using epoxy. I have seen pictures on this forum of someone adding a pillow block bearing above the box, this would be another solution that would get the lateral movement below what a lip seal can deal with. That approach would make access harder.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Thanks, David. Tides told me the opposite. Think I will stick with the old system, since Tides is unsure of its own product. You think you can epoxy inside the bronze or are you going to take it out and epoxy in a carbon reinforced tube.
 
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Dave,
I did that as well. My new (1996) rudder shaft was extended 12 inches above the to accommodate an upper rudder bearing installed on 4"x6" aluminum u-channel mounted fore and aft to the cockpit locker pan and the plywood divider that forms the aft lazarette. The idea was to provide lateral support at 2 places above the gudgeon. My Schumacher designed rudder extended 1 foot lower than the OEM
 

david_buckley

David Buckley
Terry,
The part that John installed will work it just needs addition bearings. I am using a different product from Tides than John did, the drawing is attached. It is two bearings inside a stout fiberglass tube with two lip seals all in one tiddy part that gets glassed in. The bronze port will be removed. The hole will be opened up to 3.5". The tube will stick through the hull by about 1/2" which is how thick the flange is on the bronze port. The tube will get a metric sh*t ton of glass around it. Strong like bull, water tight, maintenence free and immune to galvanic corrosion. I just ordered it today, it will take a week and half till we get it and it cost $500.
 

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David, please do a photo essay of the install.
I wish I had done so when I installed my Aquadrive to tame the lumpy Yanmar and all the other crazy shit I did.
 
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