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Tabbing Repairs on Pilgrim 1979 M382 hull115

svpilgrim

svpilgrim

Jeff Lovett
Thanks to all those that have gone before and shared their experience and wisdom.

I know from reviewing past threads on similar topics not to refer to my concerns as a "fatal flaw" nor do I believe is it such a dire situation.

After a month of pulling wiring and extricating plumbing, I am now quite familiar with many of the nearly inaccessible voids and dark recesses of our M382. I'''ve had a good look at the bones of the vessel and must admit Morgan'''s construction techniques on our vessel leave much room for improvement.

The tabbing along many of the partial and full bulkheads is intermittent. In our 1966 M34, the tabbing between bulkheads and the hull extended non-stop from the hull deck joint to the end of the bulkhead or in the case of a full bulkhead all the way around to the opposite hull deck joint.

In Pilgrim, I have discovered multiple areas where the tabbing runs for 18''' then is gone for 12''' then runs for 18''' and so on. I have also discovered multiple areas where the tabbing is detached from either the hull or the bulkhead. I believe this is due to poor installation, not a design issue.

I have posted a photo album of our tabbing repairs to the web - Tabbing Repairs Photo Ablum

I have also posted a more detailed description of my concerns on our website http://M382Pilgrim.blogspot.com

I will continue to update both the album and our blog. I also value the community and wisdom here on the Morgan38 and thus wanted to share our discoveries, solutions, and progress with you all.
 
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Terry - Album is still up. I too tried the link to the album and got an error. Here is the link again - https://picasaweb.google.com/105725086102693499228/TabbingRepairs?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Hopefully this one will work. I attempted to set the link up to open in a new brower window via the directions on the formatting section of this discussion board.

If not the album can be access by going directly to our website - M382Pilgrim.blogspot.com
in a new browser tab and then following the link to "Tabbing Repairs - 2014" on the right side of the screen.

I've also noticed that I follow the link to our website via this discussion board, the link opens within the discussion board and many of additional links on the site do not work.
 
Interesting read, Jim. Thanks
The old boat builders from Maine had a saying: "Nothing too strong ever broke."

Must apply to Hatteris engine stringers!
D
 
Jeff, what a big job you have undertaken. You cut off all the cabinet lids? The head vanity is all glass on my boat, so there is no way to take the top off without cutting it off, as I recall. Is that what you did?
 
Terry -

When we realized that Pilgrim's bilge was leaking into the holding tank below, we decided to forego the original holding tank and install smaller prefab tank in the space under the counter and the cabinets in the head.

Cons:
-We will lose space for the plastic hamper
- We will lose holding tank capacity
- Move will require relocating the deck pump out fitting
- This is alot of work

Pros:
- greatly simplify waste water plumbing with vastly shorter hose runs
- one less 1 1/2" thru hull necessary
- support bracing for tank will add strength to area between full bulkhead and head pan.
- deck fitting and waste hose not directly over electrical panel & instruments
- avoids need to facilitate repairs to existing black water tank in keel - also alot of work.

To provide enough access to insert the tank under the counter we had to cut away a large section of wall below the counter.


19369.jpg

head counter


This has provided much needed access to work on through hulls and bracing around the mast bucket.

Here is a link to a photo album dedicated to our head refit - https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/L4FLLZXuxTPvG0g-dl8iedMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

We will continue to add photos to the album as we progress with the project.

The tabbing projects are progressing well. The quarterberth and pilot berth tabbing is complete. We now just need sand down the area and paint.

Here is a link to the tabbing repairs album https://picasaweb.google.com/105725086102693499228/TabbingRepairs?authuser=0&feat=directlink

Off to the boat yard...
 
I have seen a holding tank set up in a Catalina 35 that i was impressed with In back of the head higher than the seat there was a 15 gallon tank like !5 inches wide 30 inches high but 4 inches thick.
When flushed the line from the head went to the tank top and gravity emptied the tank when the valve was opened !
 
Jeff , I'm doing 3 thru hulls and getting rid of the ball valves replacing them with 1 1/2 inch marlon I am hopping not to replace the whole thru hull fitting ! But one never knows till ya get in the yard.
So i'm as Semi ready as i can get , I have already made 3
4x4 pieces of IPE wood with a hole for the thru hull, I can glass or just 5200 glob and tighten.
My hats off to you doing all the work you are doing..
Your boat has a lucky owner..
 
Jeff - I'll add my 2 cents. When working w/o leaking, the OEM holding tank works well. (short hose runs in, with PVC pipe & its out of the living area). After owning my boat for 5 years, what the boat(I think) needs is more capacity.

You're obviously not a guy who is intimidated by a little glass work. Perhaps you could reglass the bilge top tabbing and incorporate the two tanks to obtain 25 gals total.

I certainly would understand if you feel you have a long enough project list. Anyway I am lake sailing (Ontario), we don't discharge only P/O. YMMV.
Dave
 
My boat also has the front of the vanity cutaway. I thought the boat came that way. No way to work in there otherwise. I installed a Lectra San in a shelf I built behind the toilet, with a teak covering box. I have used it successfully for 12 years. In fresh water, one just throws in 1/3 cup of salt per flush.

Your work encouraged me, Jeff, to install a new base for one of my seacocks. I am using a fiber reinforced plastic for the backing plate, but I don't know the name of the stuff. very tough. I am using the "alternative" method suggested by Compass Marine web site. Three bronze bolts attached to the backing plate to hold the new bronze seacock after it is screwed into place. I may do other seacocks as I get time and have energy.

Jeff, you also encouraged me to check all my tabbing. It is still firm, as I thought. I wonder why yours gave up. Was Pilgrim hard used before you bought her?
 
Lee - If you plan to only replace the seacock / ball valve portion of your through hull assembly, then be very, very careful not to place too much torque on thru hull portion. If thru hull fitting rotates at all when removing the valv,e then your safest option is to replace the entire assembly.

On our M34 all the thru hulls and seacocks were marelon. I was able to remove the seacock / valve portion of the assembly w/out compromising the thru hulls. But, most bronze seacocks / ball valves I have encountered require so much force to remove that the thru hull is compromised in the process.

I'm a big fan of marelon, but it must be exercised regularly (i.e. open and close the valve monthly) and lube as needed.

Good luck with your projects and let us know how it goes.
 
Dave,

Thanks for your 2 cents. My primary motivation for posting here is to gain other's perspective and have a sounding board for my ideas.

I think the leak in the bilge as around the two pvc pipes and not the tabbing, but it is very hard to locate. I can't imagine making successful fiberglass repairs in the area due to access.

We spent 2 to 6 months a year on our first boat a 1966 Morgan 34. Utilizing a 13 gallon black water tank. The only time we had issues was when we stayed over a week in the Dry Tortuga's NP. Outside of that we were always able to find a pump out facility or made an offshore jump that allowed us to discharge overboard. We were looking forward to a bit more holding capacity.

I can certainly see how lake sailing would increase the need for a larger holding tank.
 
Terry,

I would love to see an image or get a description of how the cut away in your vanity is closed. I'm still formulating a plan for how best to cosmetically refinish the portion I cut away.

I too plan to use FRP Panel for my new thru hull mounting plates. The stuff is great. The shim's I created for bracing between the sole stringers and the hull are FRP paneling.


19371.jpg

shims


The tabbing failure sites I have discovered on Pilgrim are all from post production work. I'm guessing this is work likely completed by Morgan's recall/repair teams. All the failed tabbing was intended to support the head pan. This tabbing was epoxied directly to the gel coat (or paint) on the hull interior or onto painted wood. Either way the epoxy bond was compromised b/c the base layer was not properly prepped.

Tabbing "repairs" in Pilgrim's the quarter berth, pilot berth, galley, and soon cockpit locker are areas lacking what I consider sufficient tabbing. None of the original tabbing in these areas has failed.

Jeff
 
Jeff, I have not good pictures and reviewing our picture, I realize my cut out is not as complete as yours. I have the vanity door that comes out, just as do you. But my cut out, outboard of the door, is slightly below the level of the top of the door. NOt the whole face of the vanity as is yours. Mine is simply attached with ateak batten: the batten is screwed onto the cut out and then into the remaining vanity front..It holds the cut out in the proper place, if you see what I am trying to say. I will try to upload a picture which will probably be too big.
 
I want / need to retain the ability to remove the new holding tank from the space so fiberglassing in a new facade is not an option.

My current rough plan is to reinforce the area just below the counter top with a horizontal run of 1/2" plywood epoxied in place on the interior. On the lower section aft of the head another piece of 1/2" plywood epoxied to the wall and tabbed to the hull.

This will give enough structure to use machine screws to attach a 2 piece facade that will include two cabinet doors to access the valve and storage space.

That's my thoughts for now. I've got lots of plumbing to do before we get down to brass tacks on the facade.
 
Jeff, which tank did you select for your head overhaul?

It looks like one of the Todd tanks from West Marine, did you choose a heavy wall version?

Your approach appears to be the most sure-fire fix to the M382 holding tank dilemma. has it worked-out to your satisfaction?

Thanks for posting your excellent photo albums!

Tom
 
Tom,

We did use a thick walled Todd tank. It is either the 13G or the 15G. We salvaged it from our decommissioned M34 on which it served for two years as the holding tank.

Either way there is plenty of room under the head counter for the tank.

If you need additional details on the tank size or dimension let me know and I can provide it.

Pilgrim is still on the hard so my experience with the new system is limited to testing with potable water. So far so good.

Have you discovered the "Revisit/Update of holding tank quandary." discussion on this site? This thread provides much more detail on Pilgrim's and other vessels modifications and repairs to the blackwater system.

Good to hear you have discovered our photo albums and find them to be useful. We will continue to update current albums and create new ones as our refit progresses.

Links to all the albums can be found at http://m382pilgrim.blogspot.com/

Jeff
 
Hopefully I can revive this old thread. and this is a bit of a wormhole, so come on down. I'm discovering more separated/non existent tabbing on celerity 1980 382 #207. The search started with noticing a very weak spot on around the galley sink thru hull. I can push the outside of the hull and watch it flex. Once I gained access I found that neither bulkhead supporting the sink counter was tabbed and there is up a gap between the bh and hull. the forward galley bh looked to have been epoxied or glued in the past but broke free, no tabbing. the aft had no tabbing. the backing plate on the thru hull was rotted wood and I could see daylight through the resin around it (the bottom paint and barrier coat had chipped off around that through hull which is what first got my attention). the aft side of the aft galley bh (can be seen from the hatch under the stove) has no tabbing and up to 1/4" gap between hull and bh. There's also a a piece of woven running fore to aft between the hull and the base of the cabinet under the stove that has delaminated.

To get a better look at the bulk heads and make repairs I was about to open up the access in the galley floor. Does anyone else have this access, it looks like someone cut out the floor here in the past, doesnt seem like part of the original design...
(This is the end of the current wormhole) I removing the companionway steps to find the edge of this sole access when I realized the the locks that hold the steps in place were tweaked as if the floor had risen pushing the steps up. They're wedged so tightly i can get them to move. This was never the case with the boat in the water, she's been on the hard for about 3 months and I haven't taken them off. Has anyone had this kind of settling while on the hard? The mast has also been unstepped for about 6 weeks. These should probably be different posts but they all kinda tie together. Any input is much appreciated and thanks for all the great info already posted about this.

Tyler


aft bh under sink
aft galley bh separated.jpg

access in sole
access in sole.jpg

forward bh under galley
fore galley bulkhead seperated.jpg

under stove looking forward
under stovelooking at back of aft galley bh.jpg
 
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