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Shower sump plumbing, 1979 M-382

J

jack_perlette

Jack Perlette
I'm wondering if anyone has had experience re-plumbing the shower/head sump if the hoses are no longer in place. The archives have discussions of pump replacement, but in every case it seems the hoses from the shower and head drains were still in place and usable. I know for sure that on my boat the hose is no longer connected to the deck drain in front of the toilet, and I can't see or find any hose from the drain in the shower.

The hose connection in front of the toilet goes straight down, and I can see there's nothing connected to it. The shower drain seems to have a 90 degree bend (aft, toward where a pump would be under the sink), so I can't tell where exactly it goes or whether a hose may still be on it. The area beneath the head compartment seems almost entirely inaccessible.

A previous owner drilled a couple of extra holes in the drain by the toilet and put a bilge pump down in the void just forward of the mast bucket. That makes me think the hoses are long gone.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.
 
Jack: I fear I have little to help. My drains still work, but I have worried about them clogging or coming undone. So far, I am okay. I will note that the shower drain seems connected to the drain just below the sink--so I expect there is a hose that runs from the shower drain and the other drain t's into it. It has seemed impossible to me to access under the head unit--all one glass unit, so only cutting holes and then glassing them over would work to get under there.
One other option, perhaps. Plug both of the exiting drains--and then drill a hole from the shower area into the areas where you stand before the sink. (You would have to sleeve the hole with a small pipe and make sure it did not leak.) It will get rid of most, but not all the water into the shower area by draining it into the main head sole.
Then, drill a hole from the head sole area in front of the sink, through the bulkhead just under the cabinet door under the sink. Sleeve that hole with a pipe. Then, you can attach a hose to that pipe, plumb it to a sump discharge pump, the way the rest of us do, and discharge it over board. Good luck. you surely don't want the shower draining into the bilge.
 
Thanks, Terry. As a last resort, I've thought about doing just what you suggest: running a small hole saw through the fiberglass lip that divides the shower area from the area in front of the sink and gluing a piece of pvc pipe in there to drain the water aft. At the drain just in front of the sink I think I could use a hole saw to drill out the old hose connector. Then I could attach some hose to a fitting, run the hose into the hole and back under the sink, and seal the fitting in place with some adhesive caulk. Not an elegant solution, I guess, but better than draining into the bilge.
 
Jack -

A couple of thoughts. First, you don't want the shower to be draining directly into the bilge, b/c the soap scum, hair, and skin residue can (and will) turn into a gummy substance that can (and will) gum up your bilge pump switch, putting the boat in danger of flooding should something go wrong. The original sump pump took the shower waste and sent it all the way back to the torpedo tubes beneath the cockpit.

Second, it might be that that same "stuff" (soap, hair, skin) has clogged up the pipe that runs from the shower drain into the head drain. You might try running a thin wire or plastic rod through the piping to see if it hits resistance. Home Depot sells a cheap single-use drain de-clogger, about two feet long, made out of thin plastic with barbs, that might do the trick. Using the simple technique of laying the wire or rod between the two drains, you can get a good sense of how far you should be able to feed it into the shower drain before it meets up with any T-joint.

Matt Fahey
 
Matt --
I guess my posts didn't make clear that draining the shower into the bilge is exactly what I'm trying to avoid. I'm looking for a way to set up new drain hoses to attach to a new pump.

As I said in my original post, there is clearly no hose attached to the drain just in front of the sink. Even if the shower drain has a hose that goes that far, I don't see any way to get at it. I have run a wire into the shower drain, but it's impossible to tell if it's going through a hose or just into the area beneath the head deck.

I may have to do something along the lines of what Terry suggested or I may have to cut some holes in that deck and then seal them with inspection plates. I hate to weaken that deck though.
 
All,

I have really been fighting this problem. I still have two drain hoses that join together before going to the pump. If one side of the shower drains first, the pump sucks air and loses prime. I can block the dry side (with my foot) and the pump will pump out the water on the wet side. Looking back on it, I should have been happy with this arrangement.

I made sure that the hose going from junction to the pump dropped down low enough under the sole to keep the hose full of water from both sides. However, the pump removes the fluid faster than the hose can fill up, and then sucks air and loses prime. The hose arrangement appeared to be working, and is so hard to get to I left it alone and addressed the pump.

I replaced the pump with something smaller, newer, and quieter. The new Shurflo and new strainer worked fine and used half as much power as the old PAR pump. Then, the pump appeared to lose its prime and stopped pumping.

I disconneted the hoses and let the shower drain into the bilge (just this once). I lowered the position of the pump to help it prime because the new pumps never seem to prime as well as those old PAR pumps. This worked great for quite a while and then it stopped pumping again!

Again, I disconnected the hoses, and this time the shower would not even drain into the bilge. So Matt was right, the hoses were clogged. I do not live aboard and rarely shower on the boat so I did not see this coming, but I should have. The hose arrangement is just too complicated and too small. Maybe frequent use and plenty of rinse water would have kept the hoses cleaned out, but you know how sailors are with water.

So now I'm thinking that first I will replace the hoses with something larger. This will require a bit of construction on the floor of the head. The drain on the "shower" side is pretty much impossible to get to. I may end up glassing it over and putting in a drain through the divider as Jack suggests. Then I want the whole thing drain into a sump that can be cleaned out.

The sump will have a plain old rule bilge pump in it. If you look at marine shower sump assemblies, that is exactly what they have. The sump would have to be under the sole just in front of the mast. I'm pretty sure an off the shelf sump will not fit in there, but I can build something pretty easily.

The big question is will a centrifugal pump have enough pressure on the outlet side to pump up throuh a loop above the waterline and out through an underwater through-hull? It should work, but my experience with the Rule type centrifugal pumps is with an outlet above the waterline only. I don't want to get into this project and find out it was impossible from the get-go.

Sorry for the long post, but this problem seemed so simple at first!
 
Timothy --

For what it's worth, here are a few observations. A previous owner of my boat put a bilge pump in the space in front of the mast. Apparently that served as the shower sump. (Problem: it would be hard to clean, and it's also supposed to drain aft into the bilge.) That pump is connected to a hose going directly to a thru-hull that is well above the water line. The thru-hull is located in the cabinet above and behind the toilet. It has a seacock on it for closure.

Probably any decent pump would handle that. However, I got a new pump, a Par Max 3, model 31610, designated by the maker as a shower drain pump. Unlike most bilge pumps, it's a diaphragm pump, with the advantages that it's self-priming, can run dry without damage, and is less likely to clog with small debris. You might consider this if losing prime remains a problem. (It cost about $100, and included a separate in-line filter.)

If, as looks likely, I put a pipe drain through the divider that defines the shower, I'll use a fitting in the other drain that takes at least 1/2 inch hose. (I may go to 3/4 inch, since that's the size of the fittings on the pump.) I'm hoping that will minimize clogs. Since there will then only be one hose for the drain, the problem you described with water only being pulled out of one drain will be avoided.

I'll let you know if I get any further with this any time soon.
 
Jack,

Thanks so much for the info. I am learning that a pump is not just a pump. They are more specialized than they appear. It may be a lot simpler to avoid a shower sump and modify the shower to drain towards the head area and use the correct pump. I need to look at my pump specs again. It's been awhile but I think it is a self-priming general purpose pump.
 
Tim -

One other thought that might help unclog the pipes - bleach. A marina owner told me that bleach can work wonders on clogged pipes. Put it in, let it sit a few days, then pump it out.

However, I'm not sure it's such a great idea if the pipes are polybutylene (PB) - the grey tubing that was original to the boat plumbing. Anyone have any thoughts?

Matt
 
I know that the shower will not drain unless the drain near the sink is blocked. It must suck air. I generally add water to this drain at the same time and it will 'prime' the pump!
Jim
 
Thanks, Jim. Seems like all the more reason to seal up the shower drain, put a drain pipe through the shower divider, and have everything pumped out of the aft drain in front of the sink.
 
I went the route of sealing the drain opening in the shower and drilling and installing a drain thru thru the divider between the shower and head.
 
I think it's odd that the 382's could be so different in this respect. Also coincidental that many of the boats are fighting the same general problem pumping out the shower. I didn't see it mentioned, so I'll say that Hull 002 launched in '78 has an in-line filter under the shower floor that annually must be cleaned out of the crap that catches in it. (yucch) But then, the filtered but grey water is pumped by a normal fresh water pump, very similar to the one under the galley sink. It pumps from the filter body to one of the two thru-hull drain pipes. My fix for the coming year in addition to the filter cleanout is to buy the rebuild kit for that Jabsco pump (it sits on a little shelf just under the head sink) and I think we'll be ready for another 30 years. I see piles of these pumps at Bacon's in Annapolis, and the rebuild kit is about $70 so a new pump shouldn't be too hard to find pretty cheap. The bilge pump idea sounds ok too but not sure how it would be plumbed for pick up. I agree when operating any pump has to be self-priming, and a pump failing that needs to be rebuilt.

As for the lack of any hoses or accessibility to below the shower floor (getting to the filter is a painful business that usually draws blood) I have often thought that a resealable acces panel could be cut into the shower floor. Or better yet, cut into the floor in front of the head, then covered by a teak grating over the replaceble piece and it becomes invisible. I still might do that to facilitate access to the filter. (I keep saying that to myself for over 20 years)

For those that know they still have hoses attached to the drain, I think it's reasonable to believe there is an in-line filter that has to be disassembled for cleaning, so the idea of a snake to clean it doesn't sound likely to help. My bet is the boat with no hoses has them off, lying in the bilge below the shower where they were remoived but unable to reconnect. (or removed altogether by sombody irresponsible)

If the shower is drained into the head area via a bypass tube, then obviously that section would need to be pumped out in a similar fashion. But I think the access panel is a simpler approach. And we use the shower footwell as the max water usage allowed for anybody to take a shower without hogging the water. (Imporatnt when guests are aboard, thinking it's a hotel room shower)

Good luck and just try to twist your wrist that way-ha!

Carl
Courante, Anapolis, MD
 
Bill --

I'd really appreciate getting some details about how you installed that drain through the divider. Were there any problems drilling through it? How large a hole did you make and what did you use as a drain? I'd imagine the bottom of the drain has to be right down at deck level. Any problems with that? Thanks. It's good to know it can be done.
 
Carl,

The in-line filter is interesting. On my boat (384) there is a wood stringer that runs just under and parallel with the (aft)door. The hoses come through holes in this stringer. I can hardly imagine a filter behind there. I hope Morgan gave up on it at some time, because it will be very difficult to get to without sawing. If there is one, I will remove it and relocate under the sink.

A lot of boats have access panels, but many of them are not teak, not designed for frequent access, just repair. Its not a bad idea; there are PO-added access panels in my shower behind and under the seat. Actually, they might be from the builder, don't know.

Marvin,

Did you actually use a thru-hull or just a piece of PVC? I am considering cutting a U-shaped opening and gluing in a split piece of PVC of fairly large diameter, as much as four inches.

Matt,

Bleach. I use it for all kinds of things. Would not go anywhere without it. Its fairly benign except for some things like PB, but might be OK diluted.

All,

It looks like the plumbing is the real culprit here. Any pump with a good strainer up stream should work. Now that I have finished the refrigerator and the stove, this is next!
 
All,

I have a 1980 382. The hoses from shower and drain in front of the toilet must be joined somewhere under the head floor. Only one hose snaked out from under the sole which disappeared into bowels of area under the head sink. There was no pump to be found so I assumed the water drained into bilge or mast bowl. I did not want the shower draining there so contemplated adding a T to the sink drain line...

Some previous owner had installed a knotmeter paddlewheel in thru hull under head sink. It no longer worked so I had it removed and was going to glass over hole...but then realized I could use it to discharge shower water overboard. Replaced old thru hull with new one and a bronze ball valve. Bought and installed a Whale shower discharge pump (self priming) with an inline filter on bulkhead under the sink. Installed an on/off toggle switch and inline fuse in wall just outside of shower curtain. I cut the drain hose under the sink and used a barbed connector and more hose to connect to the pump.

I found a rubber cork that fits the drain hole (under the slotted cover plate which was loose) in front of toilet. This allows the self-priming pump to empty the shower pan without sucking air from the other drain. If I should need to pump out water from the toilet drain area, I transfer the cork to the shower drain and the pump can do its thing.

Not sure if there is a filter up under the floor as described since have had no trouble pumping out shower stall. I'll find someone with gorilla arms to see if they can find one since my reach is very short.

I know I was fortunate to have that existing no-longer-needed thru-hull but maybe this approach will help.

Melinda
S/V Celerity
 
Melinda,

I also have an extra thru-hull under the sink. I think it was for a saltwater deck rinse. So that is four total: 1 sink, 2 toilet, and 1 spare. My shower sump pump is connected to the spare thru-hull. I ran the hose from pump up above the water line through a vented loop and back down to the thru-hull, just in case. The rubber cork idea is pretty slick. Probably a better seal than my big foot.

I am probably lucky that my two drain hoses are connected under the cabin sole outside the door to the head. Easier to get to. Now that I think about it, this probably indicates that there is not a filter under the shower pan (maybe, I hope). In this same area, outside the head, is a knot-log thru-hull (not in use), a glue-on depth sounder (that I removed with a chisel), and yet another thru-hull, with valve, of unknown purpose. I give the previous owner full credit for all of this.
 
I see drain, head, and bowels all in the same sentence.

Just add asspain and you have the whole story... haha even the W is extra.

sorry
 
Melinda: if you can get into the shower area, behind the shower curtain, and wash yourself without using or filling the rest of the head with water, you are a better contortionist than anyone in my family. I took the curtain down because it was more trouble than it was worth.

My shower is pumped all the way out to the torpedo tube using hose running from the head all the way aft. the kids like the warm water coming out of the stern when swimming in cool NW bays.
 
Terry,

You have a good point. I am 6'2" and about 220# so I tend to use the entire head. I also removed the shower curtain because it just got in the way. Then it had to be rinsed off which used even more water. When I shower, the water splits about 50/50 between the two areas. So, it looks like I will do some plumbing work to make sure it all works together.

Melinda,

I just went back to your post. Now I am not sure what you did. Are you teed into the sink drain or plumbed to the thru-hull? If you use the thru-hull, you should use a vented loop.
 
Melinda -

TDenney is spot on about the vented loop. Without that anti-syphoning device, there's multiple ways your boat can sink quickly - pump failure, hose failure, etc. And insurance won't pay up when they discover the plumbing was faulty (i.e., no vented loop).

I'm also surprised you didn't already have the shower sump pump and switch already installed. That's the second very different thing about your boat (if memory serves, you were also missing a holding tank, right?)
 
Jack & Tim. I installed a piece of 1/2" I.D. plastic pipe thru the shower divider and then epoxied in place. The shower side entry is at shower floor level right by the place where the former floor drain inlet was. The pipe exit on the head side comes out about an inch above the head sole. Had to do a little filing and sanding of the holes to accomodate the thru drain pipe since I drilled separately from both sides. Awkward drilling angle with my drill to have drilled straight thru the divider. the 1/2 " pipe easily handles all water flow. It has worked well in 5 years since I installed it. Never been any sign of leakage where the pipe was installed. Got tired of having to cope with the loss of suction mentioned in this thread.
 
Bill,

Thanks. I was wondering exactly that: how did you drill through and have the holes line up. I did a similar thing installing a conduit behind and outboard (port) of the refrigerator for the gas line to the stove. I finally used a flexible tube. Turns out the flexible tube is softer and less likely to chafe anyway.

I think I will do just what you did. I might get brave and go to 3/4" pipe, but then if 1/2" has worked for 5 years why add more work? A short run like that would be really easy to clean out anyway. A dremel tool is perfect on projects like this.
 
Bill --

Thanks for posting this info about the drain. It really helps to know what has worked.

When I started this thread I thought I had a unique problem, but it seems these shower drains have been a source of aggravation for a good number of us. It's good to know there's a fix.
 
Terry,

In my case, I am short and petite so guess that is (for once) an advantage! And (unfortunately) it is usually only me using shower.

To clarify, I am not T'd into sink drain...used the available thru-hull with new ball valve following removal of old paddlewheel.

Matt,
You're memory is spot on...I did not have a plumbed holding tank...just the space which has now been plumbed....and as I said no shower sump pump. There is a grey pex type hose with a cut end (not connected) running aft through bulkhead which connects to the torpedo tube. Maybe this is the old drain line for a pump that was removed although I've not found any "unused" wiring or maybe commissioning owner said run hose but no pump and instead have water drain to bilge through black hose!!

Re the vented loop..my shower pump is mounted high enough to be above the water line (visible in tubing), the tubing runs high under the sink and then descends to the tru-hull. Also has an inline check valve so I (and plumber) did not think a proper vented loop was needed. But maybe it is...thanks!
 
"Boat Plumbing
by Don Casey
Drains
Sink drains typically connect with reinforced rubber hose to a through-hull fitting. On a sailboat, sinks are best located near the centerline of the boat so heeling doesn't put them below the waterline. Because head sinks are often well outboard, they may be plumbed to drain into the bowl of the toilet to avoid the risk of flooding. There are collateral benefits of running fresh water through the head.

Shower pans too often drain into the bilge to be pumped overboard by the bilge pump. However, this arrangement eventually leads to unpleasant bilge odors, and it risks jamming the bilge pump with hair. Shower pans should be isolated from the bilge and include a discharge pump, either automatic or connected to a switch. The through-hull discharge outlet must always remain above the water."

That is why the icebox and shower were designed to drain into the torpedo tube I believe. Just my 2 cents.

Jim
 
All,

I went back and started investigating the shower problem by going under the sink and sawing out a small part of a stringer to gain access to the lower/head drain. Turns out the little drain is copper and has no kind of restraint underneath. It can be simply pulled/pried out from the top. I cut the hose where I could get to it and pulled the scupper and the hose out through the floor of the shower. The old drain has a 1/2 inch inside diameter which is probably fine, but I replaced it with a 3/4 I.D. plastic scupper. The worst part was sawing through the stringer the smallest amount possible to maintain structural strength. It's about 3/4 inch thick and solid glass, and it's awkward.

Marvin,

I took your advice and drilled through the shower/head divider and installed a piece of PVC pipe. I used 1.25" pipe because I had some on board. I used the PVC pipe as a template and drew a circle on the shower divider. Then I drilled a couple of holes with a 3/4" wood bit. The glass is about 1/4 inch thick. I finished out the hole with a Dremel tool and used the PVC pipe to fit check often. Once the PVC fit through the hole on the shower side, I left it in place and ran the wood bit through the pipe to drill the other/head side out in two places. Then I used the dremel tool again to finish out the hole, leaving the pipe in place as a gage. Once the pipe fit in nice and tight, I epoxied it in place and sawed of the excess pipe with a dremel multimax. I should by stock in Dremel!

Finally, the lower lip of the pipe in the shower side was high because of the thickness of the pipe. A little more grinding and it drained perfectly. I sealed up the shower drain with a small piece of PVC foam board and epoxy then caulked it nice and smooth. A lot of work but it drains really well. Now I have 3/4" hose going from the lower/head drain scupper to the pump which is only about 12" away. Nice and simple. I will upload pics when I have a chance.

Tim
 
Pictures of head new head drain.

17474.jpg

Old drain seen through cut-out


17475.jpg

New drain seen through cut-out


17476.jpg

New drain from above (needs grate)


17477.jpg

Shower side of through pipe


17478.jpg

Head side through pipe
 
Dave,

I considered the aftermarket shower sump. It would have to be about the smallest one out there. I think it would have to go in front of the mast in the bucket or you might be able to kind of hang it under the floor under the sink. Actually, with some mods, that might be best. You could have an inspection hatch under the sink. In any case there is not much room. About the smallest one I saw was 11x9x6" deep.

Tim
 
Hi Guys,

I've been poking around my shower drain plumbing and thought this may help others.

My shower tray and the area in front of the head have separate hoses. These each are fed through a stringer close to the centre-line and into the area around the base of the mast. Just aft of the mast, these hoses connect to a manifold that is clearly intended to be a low-point where both trays can drain to for the pump to do its thing. The intention seems to be to maintain a common level regardless which tray has the most - or even some - water. This should allow pump-out while maintaining prime.

Judge for yourselves:


18418.jpg

You can see the hoses but I can't see a way to replace them without resorting to a saw.



18419.jpg

The manifold.



18420.jpg

A schematic just to make it clear.


I'm in the middle of renovating but I think I'll keep this setup and see how it goes.

Steve
 
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