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Sanitation hose

bluesbyrd

bluesbyrd

Chris Langton
As I have mentioned in another thread, I am replacing my toilet...

It is not going well ...

Installing the toilet itself was no problem ...

But I have had a very frustrating couple of weeks trying to work with the standard 1-1/2" white sanitation hose for the waste discharge (the kind on offer at West Marine.)

It is virtually impossible to get it slip onto standard 1-1/2" hose barbs. I even soak the end in boiling water for a couple of minutes to soften it up, and use a liberal coating of dish-soap. But it still requires major force and major twisting back and forth to get it to go on.

So - point 1: it doesn't *stretch* enough to fit over a hose barb with a reasonable effort.



And then, once it is finally on and seated, with a couple of hose clamps tightened down hard ...
It still leaks!!

So - point 2: it doesn't *compress* enough to form a seal.




The problem doesn't appear to be something I'm doing wrong ... I've never had these kinds of problems with any other kind of hose.

The problem seems to be with the physical elasticity of the hose itself - it seems as though it is simply not elastic enough - it is too stiff.

I've tried everything to get this system to be leak free, and I am ready to give up on this hose.

Does anyone have suggestions for either
a) another kind of hose, or
b) a way to make this hose work?

Chris
 
I know, I know ... "It's a poor workman who blames his tools ..."

But sometimes it *is* the tool that is at fault.

So - a bet...

I'm going to buy some 1-1/2" id normal clear water hose (the kind with colored braids) and install it where I am trying to install the sanitation hose.

Same arrangement of 4 hose joints.

I'll bet dollars to donuts the installation goes like a breeze and that the joints don't leak.

Of course, I will just pump fresh water through it, and I won't use it for waste ...

This is just to test my theory that the standard white sanitation hose ("Shields Vac XHD Series 148") has very poor mechanical properties for the job it is supposed to do.

If I'm right, I'll try to find some other type of sanitation hose that has better elasticity.

Bets?

Predictions?

I'll post the result tomorrow.

Chris
 
Chris, could the hose be too old to be pliable? Some WM's do not turn their inventory quickly to keep the hose inventory fresh. Is there a date on the hose?
Most WM's will give you your $ back if you press the matter with the manager.
PS- I used a heat gun to get mine on.
Dave
 
I used odor safe by maybe raritan? Stiff and hard to work with, but with heat and applied it will fit an it does not leak smells.
 
I used Trident premium from Defender and cut off the top few inches of the standpipe and glued in an adapter piece of PVC that fit over the standpipe but inside the hose. It works fine for us.
 
I used a heatgun. I got it very hot, near melting and it went right on. I'm a little concerned about affecting it's strength so might not be smart connecting the the throughhull. But for everything else it was very easy.
 
Sorry - haven't run the experiment yet.

I'm ready to punt on this particular job.

I'm having a marine sanitation guy come by to give me an estimate for plumbing it up.

There are some times when you gotta turn things over to the pros.

This may be one of those times.

Chris
 
So, the marine plumber came, looked the situation over, and convinced me to try again with the current hose.

He said that it's the right hose but that you *have* to use a heat gun with this hose - both to get it to expand onto tight hose barbs and to get it to compress onto loose hose barbs.

There's a narrow temperature range where the hose becomes flexible and elastic, but it is easy to go too far to where the hose softens so much that it will permanently deform - I.e., beyond "elastic."

I'll experiment with some scrap bits of hose to find the proper heat-point.

Mere boiling water won't make the hose flexible enough.

If things still leak, he recommends using 4200 smeared liberally on the hose barb before fitting the hose.

Also, the paired hose-clamps have to have their "heads" on opposite sides of the hose.

He agreed that there is no need for a vented-loop between the toilet and the holding tank, as long as the tank is below the level of the toilet, which it is on our boats.

Vented-loops *are* necessary on the overboard discharge circuit, and on the pressure side of the intake pump.

So ... I'll restock my supply of marine cuss-words and try again.

Chris
 
Instead of 3M4200, just use liquid dish soap. Boiling water works if you wait long enough but wear gloves! Double hose clamps are a must and will insure no leaks.
Jim
 
bluesbyrd said:
So, the marine plumber came, looked the situation over, and convinced me to try again with the current hose.

He said that it's the right hose but that you *have* to use a heat gun with this hose - both to get it to expand onto tight hose barbs and to get it to compress onto loose hose barbs.

There's a narrow temperature range where the hose becomes flexible and elastic, but it is easy to go too far to where the hose softens so much that it will permanently deform - I.e., beyond "elastic."

I'll experiment with some scrap bits of hose to find the proper heat-point.

Mere boiling water won't make the hose flexible enough.

If things still leak, he recommends using 4200 smeared liberally on the hose barb before fitting the hose.

Also, the paired hose-clamps have to have their "heads" on opposite sides of the hose.

He agreed that there is no need for a vented-loop between the toilet and the holding tank, as long as the tank is below the level of the toilet, which it is on our boats.

Vented-loops *are* necessary on the overboard discharge circuit, and on the pressure side of the intake pump.

So ... I'll restock my supply of marine cuss-words and try again.

Chris
Click to expand...
I must be missing something here. The pump is an integral part of the head, at least on heads I have seen. So how can you install a loop on the pressure side of the intake pump?
 
Warren Holybee said:
I must be missing something here. The pump is an integral part of the head, at least on heads I have seen. So how can you install a loop on the pressure side of the intake pump?
Click to expand...

There's a hose that runs from the output (pressure) side of the pump to the toilet bowl. I'll replace that hose with a longer hose containing a vented loop. The toilet is a Jabsco "compact" marine toilet.

Chris
 
Chris,
You need a break. We are headed up river for a 6 month summer anchor out on May 6th. Fire up the iron spinnaker and head for summer. The best work is done under the shade of an oak tree.
Cheers,
John
 
I have run into a similar problem when running new hoses for the head. I first tried standard 1 1/2" sanitation hose. The problem was that it was not able to make the hard turns from toilet, through bulkhead and on towards ball valve.
My solution is SANIFLEX, its got equally good sanitation and odor properties, but MUCH more flexible, and easier to get onto barbs at toilet elbow.
Most West marine stores don't stock it, so I ordered three feet from DEFENDER.com
 
John:

I agree on taking a break! Going to do some varnish maintenance through the weekend and then get back to the toilet.

Where are you planning on anchoring out?


Richard:

Saniflex sounds like a good option. I'm going to try once more with the hose I've got, and then maybe try your suggestion.

Cheers!

Chris
 
Chris
I checked Defenders catalog. The standard Trident hose is $4 a foot and the Saniflex hose is $14 per foot. Kinda makes getting the heat gun out sound like a good idea.

Jim
 
My relocating the holding tank project is requiring 35' of 1 1/2" hose. So the $14 stuff is out of the question.

Jim
 
Jim

Could you not use PVC pipe for the long runs? And just use short sections of hose where you need to make awkward connections?

Perhaps your new installation doesn't allow for straight runs.

On Stargazer, there is PVC pipe from under the sink-counter in the head to under the sink-counter in the galley, then thick black hose down to the holding tank in the keel.

I assume that this is original construction.

Where will your new holding tank be located?

Chris
 
John
The new tank will go up in the v-bunk. It will be about 30 gallons. Dana is fully outfitted for cruising, she never races. You would be shocked by the stuff that we carry on board. Over time we have found her trimmed down slightly in the stern. It is planned that the weight of the tank forward will bring the bow down a bit.
Chris
The route that the hose has to run from the head up to the V-bunk is very winding and does not lend itself to PVC. In addition the hose runs will make the job simpler by having only two connections per hose. A trick I've found when trying to slide hose over a barbed fitting is to use a razor knife to cut a slight chamfer on the inner edge of the hose. This prevents the raw edge of the hose from getting caught on the fitting and hanging up.

Jim
 
I'll be anxious to see and hear your report upon completion. We have often wondered where if we did we would relocate the HT.
 
As low as possible and centered is optimum. Mass centralization yields a low polar moment for quick turning. A racer's dream whether a boat or a sports car.
Hey, that's right where it is! Ted Brewer's pretty smart!

Jim has other priorities, he's a cruiser John.
Or vegan, maybe.
D
 
dave_a said:
As low as possible and centered is optimum. Mass centralization yields a low polar moment for quick turning. A racer's dream whether a boat or a sports car.
Hey, that's right where it is! Ted Brewer's pretty smart!

Jim has other priorities, he's a cruiser John.
Or vegan, maybe.
D
Click to expand...
That's my thought too Dave. I guess if you put enough weight with stuff in the stern area, one could counter balance with weight in the bow...two of the worst places to put weight...bow and stern...we gain as much as 1/2 knot just having my 105 lb wife go forward in light air racing!
 
Dave & John
I agree with you guys about keeping weight out of the ends of the boat. Unfortunately, for our style of sailing we have to put our STUFF somewhere. The tank up in the bow weighs 47 lbs empty. Completely full it will be about 350 lbs. It will rarely be full. I'm concerned that we might not get the weight to trim down the bow as I expected. The space it occupies previously been loaded with scuba gear and about 200 lbs of foodstuffs on our long journeys. The volume of the tank is 36 gallons. That will allow us to sit longer in a harbor without too many pump outs. Florida's boat Nazis have a habit of zeroing in on out of state boats to harass about poop. This will help keep them at bay. The tank, by being in the bow, is also located on the centerline. There isn't anyplace on the boat to accomplish that.
While I am a cruiser, I am also a meat & potatoes guy. Much to Bonnie's dismay, I almost never eat veggies.

Jim
 
jimcleary said:
Dave & John
I agree with you guys about keeping weight out of the ends of the boat. Unfortunately, for our style of sailing we have to put our STUFF somewhere. The tank up in the bow weighs 47 lbs empty. Completely full it will be about 350 lbs. It will rarely be full. I'm concerned that we might not get the weight to trim down the bow as I expected. The space it occupies previously been loaded with scuba gear and about 200 lbs of foodstuffs on our long journeys. The volume of the tank is 36 gallons. That will allow us to sit longer in a harbor without too many pump outs. Florida's boat Nazis have a habit of zeroing in on out of state boats to harass about poop. This will help keep them at bay. The tank, by being in the bow, is also located on the centerline. There isn't anyplace on the boat to accomplish that.
While I am a cruiser, I am also a meat & potatoes guy. Much to Bonnie's dismay, I almost never eat veggies.

Jim
Click to expand...
Sounds like you are having a great time! We waiting for the rain to let up:))
 
Jim - I was busting on John "the racer", not you. I have lived the limitations of 15g. it is a PITA. Different world today from when Brewer drew the boat.

I was going to ask you if you're still using the original HT as "storage" for a total of 45+/- ? That's a workable amount.
I have Morgan's 40g water tank up in the bow. So no where to go but maybe somewhere in the head.

Cruising creates a whole new set of priorities. Never enough room or tankage, hey Jim?
Nothing another $100K + wouldn't cure at least.
Dave
 
There are some great articles to read out there on "Why we race"...
Surprisingly, racers actually sail (that's what the boats are for right?) more than anyone else. There is real time spent on the water doing the thing everyone else says they love to do...sailing.

In truth, most sailboat owners are tied up to a dock (dock condos) mooring ball or anchored...they are not actually sailing...probably involves some drinking...ha ha ;)
I'm sure that doesn't include everyone of course but it's food for thought. We are still just "cruisers" who like to do well at whatever we do in life...it's not about winning (well okay a little bit) it's the spirt of the friends we make.
Besides, where else can you scream and yell obscenities at people and then have dinner with them later!
 
Last edited:
This thread is drifting from sanitation hoses and I guess I will continue the drift.
I don't race but I certainly use my boat more than most non cruisers. While I'm a day sailor, I try to go as often as I can. In 2015 we went sailing 23 times. So far in 2016 we are a bit behind at only 6 times but I replaced the engine and pulled the boat for bottom work.
After I retire I hope to do a bit of cruising.
 
In my OPINION!!! Back in the 1970s when the sailboat craze really blossomed, most builders were putting their efforts into racer/cruisers. Boats that did neither thing very well. Ted Brewer was asked to design a cruising boat for Beatrice Foods. These boats were, with the high bulwarks and the skeg hung rudder, were his answer. I'm sure that if you put a lot of money into kevlar sails and ration the toilet paper, they can be raced quite well. In fact the previous owner of my boat raced in a couple of Marion/Bermuda races. But they are very comfortable cruisers. Witness the wonderful places that the members of this board have traveled to. Trying to solve the racer vs cruiser argument is futile. We all throw money at our boats for different reasons.

Jim
 
John
The boat is beautiful. Do you count the sheets of toilet paper on board? Just joking! I like that you have kept the traveller at the helm. Perfect for singlehanding. I also see you have the inside tracks for the headsail. Those must have been an option from Morgan. We have them and never use the outer tracks except as you do to fairlead the winch. If you look at the photo of Dana, you'll notice the dinghy on davits, solar panels on the bimini, big anchor windlass on the foredeck, with all chain rode, Mast steps and other cruising amenities. We might not get to our destination fast but we always get there happy.
 

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Dana looks beautiful...gotta love those classic lines...if you ever get a chance to gone up to Lake Champlain let us know...oh my and this is all under "sanitation hoses"! Whoops
 
Dave
We are going to abandon the in the keel tank. The tabbing is broken from years of improper blocking up on the hard. What I can't decide now is what to do with it? fill it with sand, fill it with water, just leave it empty or open it up and keep it as a deeper bilge as Jeff is doing. My only concern with that is in the case of a hard grounding that ruptures the tank. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

Jim
 
jimcleary said:
Dave
We are going to abandon the in the keel tank. The tabbing is broken from years of improper blocking up on the hard. What I can't decide now is what to do with it? fill it with sand, fill it with water, just leave it empty or open it up and keep it as a deeper bilge as Jeff is doing. My only concern with that is in the case of a hard grounding that ruptures the tank. Decisions, decisions, decisions!

Jim
Click to expand...
I've heard of people filling a portion with filler resin/epoxy glass
 
wild382 said:
Chris...sorry about the "drift";)
Did you get your sanitation hose connections worked out?
Click to expand...

Ha! Yes the topic does seem to have drifted a bit ... But, Hey! ... So do I from time to time ...

On my sanitation hose problems, I took a break from that project for a bit and moved on to a different volume of my "to-do" list ....

We had a run of warm sunny days here in SF, so I did a bunch of maintenance varnishing and exterior hull and deck cleaning. I also have been checking and tweaking my running rigging.

In general, since I'm so much more mobile and physically capable following my hip-replacement, I'm prepping Stargazer and myself for major sailing again.

The short term plan is to do a couple of weeks of Bay sailing and sea trials, and then bust out of the Golden Gate for trips to Half Moon Bay to the south and Drake's Bay to the north.

The long term plan is to take Stargazer down to the Channel Islands for a couple of weeks in October.

Sometime between now and getting out of the Gate, I'll need to beat the sanitation hose gremlin.

Since I only need 3-4 feet of hose, I may go the Saniflex route recommended by Rich.

-------

We now return you to your regularly scheduled racing discussion...

;-)

Chris
 
bluesbyrd said:
Ha! Yes the topic does seem to have drifted a bit ... But, Hey! ... So do I from time to time ...

On my sanitation hose problems, I took a break from that project for a bit and moved on to a different volume of my "to-do" list ....

We had a run of warm sunny days here in SF, so I did a bunch of maintenance varnishing and exterior hull and deck cleaning. I also have been checking and tweaking my running rigging.

In general, since I'm so much more mobile and physically capable following my hip-replacement, I'm prepping Stargazer and myself for major sailing again.

The short term plan is to do a couple of weeks of Bay sailing and sea trials, and then bust out of the Golden Gate for trips to Half Moon Bay to the south and Drake's Bay to the north.

The long term plan is to take Stargazer down to the Channel Islands for a couple of weeks in October.

Sometime between now and getting out of the Gate, I'll need to beat the sanitation hose gremlin.

Since I only need 3-4 feet of hose, I may go the Saniflex route recommended by Rich.

-------

We now return you to your regularly scheduled racing discussion...

;-)

Chris
Click to expand...
We should get together again and talk more. My last recent trip was to Santa Cruz and Half Moon Bay, and I think I am going to do Drakes bay next. A friend of mine sails to Bolinas quite often also. It's quite close, has good surfing (I don't surf but he does) and has a great little bar. Also, I'm gonna need to get good at that varnish thing. Mine is in pretty good shape, except a couple dings, and I want to keep it that way.
 
Chris/Warren
You guys are bringing back many memories. I went to school out there during the sixties. Surfed at "steamers lane" Santa Cruz much later my wife and I lived in Carmel/Pacific Grove. SF Bay is a great sailing test ground as you know! That current and swell action is notorious. Would love to see more pictures of your sailing the area. If you have been to Monterey Bay Aquarium you have heard my music.:))
Oh and drifting again...let us see what you do with the hose!
 
John
Filling the old tank with resin would be way too expensive. How much would 18 gallons of resin cost? At the moment we are going to just leave it empty and cap off the pipes going in.

Chris
Last night a package from Defenders arrived on my doorstep. Today I'm going out to the boat with 35 feet of 1 1/2" hose and my heat gun to begin the installation process. The hose is the $4 per foot white Trident sanitation type. I'll let you know how it works.

Jim
 
Meanwhile, in other news ....

From the LI Independent:

Dateline: Floral Park.

A sailboat owner was found strangled to death this afternoon by a large albino snake.

"We don't know what kind of snake it is," said a paramedic at the scene, "it wrapped itself around him and dragged him up into the fore-peak and still has him up there. It won't let anybody get close and hisses and spits at anyone who tries. We've got a call in to a professional herpatoligist."

;-)

Chris
 
Chris
It's all a rumor. I doused the white monster with my trusty heat gun which caused his eyes to cross. That caused his control of his forked tongue to falter, thus saving the hapless sailor.

Jim
 
Actually, the job went very well. The hardest part want unrolling 35' of hose in the cabin and feeding thru the predrilled route from the V-bunk to the head. Quite like wrestling alligators. Once the hose was run the terminating was fairly easy. I chamfered the inside edge of the hose, smeared the inside of the hose and the outside of the barbed fitting with SuperLube, applied heat to the hose with the heat gun and they slipped on without problems. On the stbd side, the hose was run thru the small hanging locker to a new deck "waste" fitting. The next step will be to get in under the head sink to change the overboard valve and to hook up the new system. Anyone know a strong midget who rents himself out? The old system used three T-valves to route the waste. The new system uses only one. I'll post photos soon.

Jim
 
Getting back to sanitation hoses. The new holding tank project is almost finished. Just waiting for Defenders to deliver Sealand electric waste pump. About 15 connections were made with the Trident 1 1/2" sanitation to various fittings. Using the heat gun, Super Lube in the hose and on the fittings and chamfering the inner edge of the hose allowed each hose to go on with minimum strain. Then putting the hose clamps on while the hose is still warm, makes for a better seal. I've decided to leave the old holding tank capped off with about 5 Gallons of cherry antifreeze in it. I'm afraid of the tank getting ruptured in a grounding and not being able to reach the damage. I'm also waiting for Chris at Electrosense to sent me the new monitor for checking the tank level.

Jim
 
Success!

I finally got up the gumption to tackle this task again, and the combination of a heat gun and properly installed opposing double hose clamps on the standard white hose did the trick: the junctions don't leak anymore.

Currently, I've got the plumbing hard-wired direct to the holding tank, as a test that I could get this hose to make good joints before I went to all the work to make all the other connections.

I'll give it a rest for a month or so, and then install the diverter valve and everything else.

Thanks to all for helping out!

Chris
 
bluesbyrd said:
Success!

I finally got up the gumption to tackle this task again, and the combination of a heat gun and properly installed opposing double hose clamps on the standard white hose did the trick: the junctions don't leak anymore.

Currently, I've got the plumbing hard-wired direct to the holding tank, as a test that I could get this hose to make good joints before I went to all the work to make all the other connections.

I'll give it a rest for a month or so, and then install the diverter valve and everything else.

Thanks to all for helping out!

Chris
Click to expand...
Did you happen to take pictures of the final install ?
 
It's not the final install yet ...

I'll post pictures once I've installed everything right, tight, and bright.

Hopefully before the year 2020 ...

;-)

Chris
 
Just to summarize the key lessons from this experience:

The common, garden variety, white sanitation hose MUST BE SOFTENED UP WITH A HEAT GUN in order to be flexible enough to expand to fit over hose barbs easily, and to compress to make a tight seal. At normal room temperature, it is too stiff and inelastic to do either.

The ends must be heated until they become "rubbery," which is not a well defined state, but you will know it when you try it out. It is a temperature that makes the hose almost, but not quite, too hot to touch. If the hose starts to go "brownish" in color, you have gone too far. Best to experiment with some scrap hose to get the feel for the right temperature.

When it is sufficiently rubbery, you will notice that tightened hose clamps visibly compress the hose and "sink into" the surface a little bit, whereas they do not deform the hose at all at room temperature.

Another important point is that all hose ends must be secured with double hose clamps, and these hose clamps must be set with their screw bodies 180 degrees opposed on the hose.

Hope this helps!

Chris
 
bluesbyrd said:
Just to summarize the key lessons from this experience:

The common, garden variety, white sanitation hose MUST BE SOFTENED UP WITH A HEAT GUN in order to be flexible enough to expand to fit over hose barbs easily, and to compress to make a tight seal. At normal room temperature, it is too stiff and inelastic to do either.

The ends must be heated until they become "rubbery," which is not a well defined state, but you will know it when you try it out. It is a temperature that makes the hose almost, but not quite, too hot to touch. If the hose starts to go "brownish" in color, you have gone too far. Best to experiment with some scrap hose to get the feel for the right temperature.

When it is sufficiently rubbery, you will notice that tightened hose clamps visibly compress the hose and "sink into" the surface a little bit, whereas they do not deform the hose at all at room temperature.

Another important point is that all hose ends must be secured with double hose clamps, and these hose clamps must be set with their screw bodies 180 degrees opposed on the hose.

Hope this helps!

Chris
Click to expand...
Great info to have...thanks for the detailed explanation...its stuff like this that helps many.
 
Been too busy all summer to watch the 'Board' but feel the need to add a few comments:

1) if you can afford it at all. . . use Raritan sanitation hose. It is guaranteed to not allow odor to permeate for 5 years (tests have shown the ordinary PVC hoses to start leaking odor in a matter of months) and the Raritan will allow a much tighter bend radius.
 

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williwaw said:
Been too busy all summer to watch the 'Board' but feel the need to add a few comments:

1) if you can afford it at all. . . use Raritan sanitation hose. It is guaranteed to not allow odor to permeate for 5 years (tests have shown the ordinary PVC hoses to start leaking odor in a matter of months) and the Raritan will allow a much tighter bend radius.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the post and mention if the Raritan hose
 
For years I always used the heat gun on sanitation hose . Till the day came when i got the end to hot and melted, very stupid i agree. So i boiled water added Salt cause its faster. letting the 1 1/2 inch hose in the water 4-5 min till soft and with leather gloves grabbed the hose and forced it on to the veg oiled barbed fitting ! Easy , I was amazed. So thats my new method ! Now that my holding tank is under the port side seat all my hose runs are less than 3 feet long. Shorter is better !
 
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