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Revisit/update of holding tank quandry

M

mel

Melinda Carver
Hey...

Some of you may remember a discussion from 2008/2009 re my holding tank quandry: all evidence. i.e., missing plumbing, transom vent, sensor panel in head, etc all said the HT was not ever plumbed. An earlier owner concurred...I want to plumb it (have Lectra san now but not legal in FL)...

Am finally getting around to it....a bit of history....in Fall I had a friend drill small pilot hole in bilge floor to see if the HT space was actually there (it was and was bone dry). We put a rubber cork in it and sealed edges with Lifeseal...long story short seems water from the bilge has apparently leaked into the tank (the cork was not as well sealed with Lifeseal as we thought) over the last 5-6 months (remember it was bone dry when we drilled that small hole). To put it mildly, the water stinks! I pumped much of it out (~8 gallons) using a small thirsty mate-type pump...was a slightly opaque grayish color (not brown or beige, no solid material) but smelled bad.

I am puzzled as to what is making it smell so bad. Gas is definitely being generated, smells like rotten eggs...hydrogen sulfide I guess. do you all think that brackish water "incubated" in a closed dark, low oxygen space would generate gas and smell a little bit like poop? And more importantly, should I proceed with plumbing the HT?

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions...
Melinda
 
Melinda, have you flushed it with a bleach solution? I would fill the tank area with a strong solution and let is stand for a few days. I may simply be trapped water which has sat stagnate for a period of time.

Have you researched the Electrasan? I had lots of trouble with mine on my Cal 2-29. Lots of issues with smell and electrical consumption. Perhaps they are better now?

I thought it was mandatory for you to have a holding tank of some sort? Don't you have to have a backup for the Electrasan?

In case you don't have this:


17037.jpg

Plumbing Plan 382
 
Hi Jim:

A few clarifications on the modifications you've indicated on your drawing. Did you install the y-valve positioned as shown so that all the waste goes thru the vented loop then to the y-valve and presumably from one port on the y-valve to the holding tank and from the other port to the discharge thru-hull? As it was plumbed initially if the gate valve was open to the holding tank and thru hull was closed, waste did not go up thru the vented loop. Probably makes little difference.

You've written in macerator pump and thru hull next to the deck plate pump-out line. How and where did you install the pump. Did you install another thru hull? I would prefer to avoid that but don't want the added piping to send it back to the thru hull in the head.

I suppose I could put a y-valve connecting the two PVC lines where they go to the holding tank and use the pump to send waste from the tank back thru the existing PVC pipe to the discharge thru hull in the head. Might have to add another valve to prevent backfilling the head if the joker valve leaks. Looks too complicated...
 
Alan: Maybe I am repeating myself, but... I redid my head and holding tank situation a few years ago. I am quite happy with it. (1) I installed a Lectra san in the head--it has worked well for 7 years, but I am diligent about cleaning it each year at end of season and draining it for winter. (2) I can pump from the toilet to the LectraSan or to the holding tank. I can discharge from the LectraSan to the holding tank or overboard. I can discharge from the holding tank, through a hand pump and thru hull under the cabinetry forward of the nav station. We sail mostly in salt water, but I can add salt when on the Columbia River to make the LectraSan work. I use the LectraSan at (virtually all times (not when 20 miles off shore). When in open and tidal waters, we discharge overboard. When in small anchorages or marinas, we discharge from the Lectra San into the holding tank. When we weigh anchor and again are in open water, we discharge the treated sewage from the holding tank overboard. When using the boat on the river, I discharge from LectraSan into the holding tank and then pump out at local pump out station. The plumbing is not impossible, but difficult and time consuming. Sounds as if you could use the holding tank IF you can get down into the bilge to install the fittings. that is a real bad job. Many of the holding tanks, if full or pressurized will leak into the bilge--in my case through the tabbing along the side of the bilge where the holding tank top is glassed in. I am careful of mine and, although the gauge showing its level no longer works, I have learned how not to over fill it and have no problems with leaks into the bilge.
 
I have had some wine so you may have to email me! The macerator is located in hanging locker stbd side with a thruhull in the adjacent small locker and the deck pumpout above. The momentary switch is in the small locker so instead of pumping thur the deck you can pump maceratored sewage overboard, the valve is not easy to get to in the small locker.

The y valve is there to pump directly overboard. That valve is
mounted on the wall next to the head. I believe it is a Groco waste valve and should be fixed in position when in inland waters. But?

I also rigged a fresh water valve to be able to flush with fresh water to reduce salt water smell and calicum buildup in the waste lines.

Jim
 
Got a couple of issues with the macerator pump! First: When I turn it on, it uses so much electricity that the light dim, Wonder if a new pump would fix this? I have even thought of changing to a head with a hand pump!
Second: I use the macerator pump to pump out the water after taking a shower,or hosing down the head for a cleanout! Is this correct?
 
Terry, I am reopening that old thread, but I am curious about your holding tank installation. I am in near similar situation as Melinda, the holding tank has not been used for x numbers of years, but thanksfully the fittings (and some very old hoses and gate valve that all need to be replaced) are there.

I read about the LectraSan, but I don't understand the advantage of having it in line with a holding tank. Does it reduce the amount of matter being pumped into the holding tank? Does it reduce the "potency" of what is being pumped into the tank? If not, what is the advantage over simply discharging into the holding tank?

Thanks a lot.
 
Philippe: It depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I discharge my holding tank into the surrounding waters. I use the holding tank when I am in a small harbor, then pump it out when we are underway in larger, deeper waters. I have a dedicated hand pump and through-hull for that purpose. By having the LectraSan in use, I macerate the material (ugh) and treat it. It makes it EASIER TO PUMP out over the side and it makes it LEGAL TO PUMP out over the side. If you are just going to pump the holding tank out from the deck plate into a shoreside sewer system, the only advantage would be maceration, which probably isn't that important when you are using the big shoreside pump out stations.
 
Thanks Terry. It's goog to know it makes it easier to pump.

I am still unclear how the lectrasan make it legal to pump over the side within U.S. waters? How many mailes do you have to wait before to pump out with a lectrasan versus a holding tank?

Raritan website states "Discharges with treatment levels that are safe for environmentally sensitive areas" which is why it is confusing me.

Thanks again!
 
Terry,

I'm not sure that I understand all this. I was under the impression that with a Lectra San, you could pump treated waste directly overboard. Of course, in a strict "no discharge zone", you have to use the holding tank no matter what. I saw somewhere that Lectra San was USCG approved for everywhere else. I applaud your approach. It had to be a lot of work to set it all up, but you have every option covered.

I'm interested in using a Lectra San. I am thinking of using a forward mounted battery for both the Lectra San and the anchor windlass. That too could be complicated. Any insight will be appreciated. I have seen about a 50/50 split between forward mounted battery and long 2/0 cables. Thanks.
 
Jim,

I have been studying the problem. There is the issue of voltage drop while charging the forward battery. It will likely be chronically undercharged. The other option of long cables is probably simpler.

The PO had mounted a small motorcycle or lawn tractor battery under the V-berth in that most forward triangular storage area just aft of the anchor locker. That was his windlas battery. I couldn't believe it. It actually worked twice as we moved the boat from St. Petersberg to Melbourne, but we anchored 12 times.

The PO had also built a battery box under the port setee under the short leg of the "L" near the boat centerline. It is a little closer to the head/windlass than the quarter berth where my house bank is now. Should be a pretty easy cable run too. Anybody have house batteries under the port setee?

Tim
 
I placed six golf cart batteries in the space where the settee drawer and alcohol tank where located (i.e, just forward of the gally sink). It has worked well but it is not convenient to the main breaker box. Otherwise, it a good place for a heavy battery bank, makes battery maintenance easy and provides plenty of electrical power storage.

Jay
 
Jay,

Thanks for the response.

Since I already have a box there, I will probably make use of the space. The PO put golf cart batteries there without boxes and boiled them over. The acid has rotted the wood to some extent. I will have to replace it, but it will be one of the simpler projects that I have attempted.

A fairly large cable, maybe AWG 4 or 6 running to the breaker panel should be fine as long as there are no connections in the bilge.

If your start battery fails can you start from your house bank so far away? Or did you go with two start batteries? I have seen two start batteries only once before. It was because the house bank was under the cabin sole, amidships, fairly far away in a rather large boat.

Tim
 
I used 1/0 AWG between the house and the switch and yes, they will start engine. Starting batteries are cheap so, I make sure that I have a good one onboard.

Jay
 
Jim,

No idea why the guy had two start batteries, but they were wired 1, 2, both. Thanks for the links.

Jay,

Good to hear that the midship location works. You're right, a start battery can be purchased anywhere any country.

Looks like I got off topic. This is supposed to be about the holding tank. I will look into Lectra San at the Miami boat show. Could get expensive.

Tim
 
Jim,

Correct. I have heard the newer models use less energy. Still, with two people, it could be 20 amp-hours / day. I seem to recall peak amperage of about 65 amps, but not through the entire cycle. I have seen a few posts from people that have installed them in the head, under the sink/trashcan. Looks pretty tight.

Tim
 
Gentleman,

I have a Lectra-San and I love it. It doesn,t use 20 amp-hrs a day.

With two of us we actuate it twice a week. It uses 20 amps for a few minutes which is less than 1 amp-hr twice a week.

It has required no maintence for 5 years. You must use toilet paper only!

Bill Buebel
 
<a href="http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/lectrasan/L270v0404.pdf" target="_top">http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/lectrasan/L270v0404.pdf</a>

Check the specs.

Jim
 
Tim,

According to the spec, the unit runs for 2 minutes, and draws 50 amps.

That calculates to about 1.06 amp-hr per operation.

We run the discharge cycle about 2 times a week with 2 soles on board.

50 amp * 2 min / 60 min / 1 hr =&lt; 1.07

As I said, I love it. No holding tank, no Y valve.

Im not saying it's for everybody.

Bill Buebel
 
Bill,

Thanks for the info. Do you live on board? I was thinking that if you use it every day, you would have to cycle at least once a day. Still this is way less power than I have been seeing other places on the net. I am encouraged.

Tim
 
Tim,

First, I made a mistake. I should have said 1.7 amp-hours.

Second, we travel Md to Fl and back each year. We take about 4 weeks each way.

We activate the Lectra-San about twice a week, ( two of us). With 4 people, it's every other day.

The 50 amps, ( mine seems to use less), scares some people until you do the math. It's only for 2 minutes and not necessarly every day.

We have been boarded by the CG twice, and both times they were happy w/ the unit. There first question was where is your y valve. We told them we had the Lectra-San, and they were happy.

Tim, We like ours. I'm not trying to sell you on one but give you the correct numbers to make your decision.

Fair winds,

Bill
 
Bill,

Thanks again. We are going to the Miami boat show in mid February. We might get a boat show deal on one. Seems to be the way to go.

Tim
 
Bert

Same thought occured to me, that you have to activate the unit every time. However, if Bill (Buebel) has not had problems with the unit, that just shows how robust it really is.

Allan and Sheryl,

After reading your post more closely (last paragraph) I was reminded of a time we filled the holding tank and forgot to pump out before leaving for the Bahamas (different boat). Back then there was no place to pump out in the Bahamas.

I switched the hoses at the tank, connected the dinghy pump to the tank vent line, and pressurized the tank. The contents were then forced back to the head through-hull. The Joker valve held up fine, once. This procedure is not something I ever want to do again, that's for sure.

So the Y-valve near the holding tank has some appeal, but I would never ever pressurize the Morgan holding tank. As you said, there would be more plumbing/valving back at the head. I think I will keep it simple and stick with the Lectra-San, try to avoid NDZs, and take Terry's approach to be very careful with the holding tank.

Tim
 
I activate the lectra san each flush, otherwise, you are discharging untreated sewage. I have sailed for up to 5 weeks with four aboard, using it regularly. I have 440 amp hours of my house bank and I have no concern about electricity usage. When I am off shore, we only activate the lectra san occasionally to "macerate" the unpleasant stuff.--oh, and it has worked very well for 9 years.
 
Terry,

Are you saying that you can macerate without treating, without charging the plates? I did not see that in the document that Jim Ball uploaded. Stil, 9 years, I think I'm sold.

You mentioned in a previous post that the holding tank leaks through the tabbing around the sides. Have you (or anybody) tried to seal it up? I know, from installing new bilge pumps etc., that access is terrible.

Tim
 
no, I mean I treat and macerate, but only for the big job off shore.

Access into the bilge is hard and it is not easy to find where the leaks are. Have to make sure all water is gone from bilge and then over fill the holding tank. Some water will exit the steer vent, some may come up in the bilge. My tabbing leak was along he side of the bilge. Others, I think, have found leaks through various holds in the bilge roof, where all the tubes and pipes enter. I have had no long term problem, because I monitor the tank (not by meter, which is broken), but just by knowing how many days I can last depending on usage. I did not wholly fix the leaks and I have just let it go. Some day, if I hole the bottom of the boat, and wish the holding tank were solidly sealed, I may regaret my sloth.
 
Terry,

Thanks for the clarification. As for the holding tank, I sometimes wonder if I could get it nice and clean in there, and then mix up a couple of gallons of thickened epoxy and just pour it in. But then, maybe I will wait until I am desperate.

Tim
 
Take the boat out of the water and then fill the tank with dye colored water and look for the leaks, either inside or outside the hull. It can even be pressurized to help find leaks. This is just another thing to maintain on the Morgan and it's worth doing.
Jim
 
Jim,

Good idea. We are about due for a haulout. Last time I cleaned out the bilge, I got it nice and dry and looked closely at the bottom. It is very smooth around the edges with a nice finish. So I was a little surprised to hear about leaks.

I think if I pour colored water in through the pump-out fitting until it nearly overflows (with the head valve closed), I will have the pressure equal to the weight of water from the deck down to the top of the holding tank. That should be about 6-8 feet of water pressure, maybe 2-3 PSI. I don't want to put enough pressure on it to damage it.

Did Morgan know about the leaks before production ended? Any evidence that they modified the holding tank design? My boat is a 1984, probably near the end of the run.

One more thing is the tank vents. Mine are all the way aft. It seems like this long run for a small vent line would make it easier to clog. My previous boats have had the vent (for any tank) abeam of the tank just under the cap rail. So I am tempted to relocate the vents.

Tim
 
The vents are okay where they are as long as they are open and full of salt or bugs. You will have to plug the vent to pressurize the tank which you probably know. I would start by not pressurizing however; looking from the outside.

If the leak is seen from the outside, it is probably due to bonding along the aft edge, a crack from hitting something, or improper blocking in the yard that has been discussed elsewhere in this forum. Improper blocking can cause fractures that will lead to the tank leaking.

Proper blocking of the 38 series is critical!
Jim
 
Just to add to Jim's comment: When I first bought my boat we had "the smell" when operating the head. I could see a few bubbles rising thru the water in the bilge when pumping the head. Along the sides where the bilge "floor" glasswork" met the sides.


I removed a substantial mud wasp nest by pulling the vent hose in the bilge and putting a garden hose to it. My wife saw the clog go. No screen was the cause.

My point is: re-glassing that area would be a LOT of work if done right. Double check the vent ans hose. The flushing odor in my boat is now greatly diminished to the point of acceptability to my nose...anyway! FWIW.
Dave


Anyway - "the smell" has been gone since
 
Dave,

Thanks. I installed new vents with screens about a year ago. The lines looked OK. I have been toying with the idea of putting a fiiting in the vent line to flush periodically. It would have a valve to chose either holding tank or a garden hose fitting. Might be overkill though. I fear that I could damage the screen with too much water.

I agree, glassing over the bilge floor would be a nightmare. I will continue to work this problem and see how it goes.

Tim
 
Terry,

I was just reading this post, and have a question about the through-hull that you use to pump out your holding tank. While my boat is out for a bottom job, I thought that I would add the through-hull, then get around to putting in the pump later when she is back in the water.

Where exactly is the through-hull? I assume it is in the hanging locker where the pump-out hose goes through. My question is how high up on the hull is it? I am sure that it is below the waterline, but how far? Do you run the output of the pump through a vented loop prior to going out through the through-hull?
 
It is below the water line, mounted on a plywood pad I expoxied to the inside of the hull. How far, I can't recall, but maybe a foot and a half up the hull from the bottom of the locker door. If you want I can measure next time I am at the boat. But you can select your own location. I wanted it below the hull coring, obviously, and up from the door so it would not be in my way all the time. I first installed a big, easily operated Y valve. One route goes to the deck pump out. the other goes to the overboard pump. I installed a relatively small whale hand pump on the aft bulkhead of the locker. I wish I had put in the kind that mounts to a bulkhead, with a removable handle sticking out into the settee area. Reaching in and pumping gets tiring. I used Raritan odor safe hose (I think it is called that.) Finally, I have no vented loop. One: odor. Two: the seacock is always closed except for the few minutes when I am pumping.
 
Thanks Terry,

I was thinking about the same for location of the through hull. I will probably use an electric pump, however.
As for the vented loop, I agree. We just have to keep the through hull closed except when we are pumping. I will probably be sitting there watching the entire pump-out operation anyway. Did you use a bronze or plastic through hull?

Tim
 
Be sure to check the laws before pumping, there are BIG fines associated with improper discharge of waste.
 
Jim,

Thanks. I know about the fines. Especially if one goes down to the Florida Keys.

All,

After some discussion and head scratching, we may not put another hole in our boat after all.
Under the thread "Head & holding tank plumbing" there are some interesting work arounds to use existing thru-hulls. Some are too complicated, and some are just disgusting. So here is just one more thought:

Holding tanks are designed so that the hose from the head attaches at the top of the tank.
The pump out hose attaches to a pipe that goes to the bottom of the tank. This is simple and foolproof.
What if the hose from the head also attached to a pipe that went to the bottom of the tank? So we would have two pipes going to the bottom of the tank.

I think filling the tank in this manner would be no different than filling a bucket with a hose held just above the bottom. The tank would still fill.
Then, a pump, a T-fitting, and one more Y-valve under the vanity in the head, and you're there.

My boat is in the yard, and I am very busy, and very tired. I may be crazy, and adding another pipe to the holding tank may be impossible. Comments anyone?

Tim
 
To pump overbd from the holding tank, you can go through a macerator pump and then either through the deck pumpout or through a thruhull. The macerator pump is a good solution.

If you decide to pump the head directly overbd, you need to install a y-valve to allow pumping either into the holding tank or directly overbd through a thruhull. KISS
 
Tim
Posted is a drawing of my 382s waste system. Instead of adding a new thruhull, the galley sink overboard is used. I'm sorry for the size of the attachment but I don't have the means of reducing it on the I-Pad.
18733.jpg

Dana waste system
 
Considering the risk of smell and contamination, I would recommend a small 1 inch thruhull in the hanging locker to stbd., attached to a macerator pump in the same locker. My 2 cents. There are many options in boating!
Jim
 
I agree. Although I respect Jim Cleary's experience, I would never pump out a holding tank through a connection to a sink, even with a y valve in place. Cross contamination seems a big risk.

Tim, I do not understand why you need another pipe into the holding tank, but it would be damn hard to accomplish. Have you ever tried to do any work down in the bottom of the bilge? In addition, if you pump into the holding tank from a pipe low in the tank, you are running a risk of blockages you can't easily unclog.
 
Guy's

My overboard pump out fitting, not the deck one, is Marlon and is located above the starboard bullett hole thru hole. The Y-Valve is located as shown in Jim's drawimng. Works fine. I sometime have had leaks into the tank from the bildge. Causes re-epoxy work on the in and out pipes for the holding tank

Enjoy Ugg

Dick.
 
Dick, I am unsure of your description of the location of the stbd thruhull? Any leaks into the bilge from either direction, is a BAD thing. I am leery of Marlon thru hulls vs metal.
Jim
 
Terry
Because the y-valve on the galley sink overboard is close to the thru hull, there has been no problem with any cross contamination in the 10 years the system has been in use. Salt water is pumped thru the galley drain after each use of the holding tank pump.
 
Jim: My 31 year old Catalina has Marlon fittings on all thru hulls. The engine intake, head intake, head out, sinks out are all below the waterline. Every few years they get a little vegetable oil.

On my Morgan as I said the Marlon alternate holding tank discharge fitting is above the bullette hole on the starboard side, or the above the hole that discharges various water from the Morgan at stern on both sides.

My sometimes leak is from the bildge into the holding tank around the pipes that enter and exit the tank. Haul a Morgan that has the holding tank pumped as dry as it can be, leave water in the bildge. Let it sit for a few days, pump and see what happens.

I have not gotten any noticiable stink in my bildge from this, which I do not understand

Hope this answers your don't understand question.

Dick
 
Dick,I guess it continues to be unclear to me on where the "alternate discharge holding tank discharge fitting" is located. Are you saying is on the transom? Is it the pumpout location or the holding tank vent? Usually, the holding tank pumpout is on the stbd side deck as shown in the Morgan waste diagram further up this post. This pumpout location is close to the holding tank.

Perhaps the holding tank leak is not from the bilge, but from sea water through a crack in the hull. There is discussion regarding this earlier in this thread using dyed water to check.

Jim
 
As was posted previously, the leak between the bilge floor and the holding tank below it is caused by the boat being improperly blocked up when on land. If a hard block is placed under the holding tank as opposed to being under the ballast part of the keel, the weight of the boat will expand the sides of the holding tank outward, breaking the tabbing of the bilge floor. That will allow bilge water to drain down into the tank or effluent to be pushed up into the bilge if the tank is filled to over flowing. It is not an easy thing to fix.

Jim
 
It will also allow sea water to enter the holding tank through cracks from the outside. The bilge floor has strong tabbing but the keel underside and aft thin foil is very easy to damage as Jim says through improper blocking. If the boat is on the hard, fill the holding tank with dyed water and look for leaks after a few hours.

BLOCKING the Morgan is a critical operation and has been discussed many times in the achieves.

As an added thought, damage can happen to the keel area of the holding tank though a hard grounding or hitting a submerged object. this area of the keel must be checked when even the boat is out of the water for any cracks, small or large, and repaired properly. Inspection where the aft portion meets the hull should also be inspected.
Jim
 
Jim & Jim
Have owned "Vixen" since new (1978). Think I have blocked her a few times and understand the dangers. Early on it may have been done wrong. Can't remember everything.

I have no external hull cracks.

Have either of you thought about mast load ??

Jim B. look at Jim C's sketch. My alternate comes off the Y-Valve in the bildge runs aft, loop up in the aftermost locker, discharge above the thru hull hole. Above means above. Clear???

Dick
 
Okay clear, but it seems like a long run to pump sewage to me and waste remaining in the long run. If this works for you, great!

If you believe the leak is due to mast load, then I believe more Morgan's would have had the issue. The immediate issue is to find and then repair the problem.
Jim
 
If anyone installed a reducing tee in the overboard pump-out hose and then to a pump, can you tell me the size of tee that you used? Also, where can I find one?

Thanks
 
I am not sure why you need a reducing tee. What pump are you using. Isn't the hose 1 1/2 inch? you can get a pump whose inlet will fit that. I did.
 
If not, increase into the waste outlet line via the tee. There are many reducers, up or down, into the main lines. There are fittings out there either brass, nylon, or mylon that will work.
 
Terry,

I am using a Whale Gulper 220, which is advertised as a black water or shower sump pump. It has a 1 inch inlet/outlet. In any case I should be able to find a way to reduce the diameter.
Just trying to reduce some of the work.

Tim
 
Just got back from the boat.
The pump-out hose is 1 7/8", it says so on the hose. First time I've seen that.
The PVC tubing up from the holding tank is 1 1/2" with an OD of 1.9". It fits nicely over the 1 7/8" PVC pipe.
So, I will keep looking.

Thanks everyone.
 
Jim,

Probably everything, but it will be used infrequently if at all.
The pump out is really just in case.
There are several products available to break down waste.

Tim
 
I have totally removed my starboard water tank today. Put it in the truck and dropped off at the tank repair guy .

I found all the tank fittings cracked enough to leak water.
The PO had re plumbed and when the fill was tightened to tight it split so they used
Marine Tex around the fitting to stop leaks.
Little did they know the corner had cracked out leaving a 1/4 inch wide crack.
The repair guy said he needed to have 1/4 inch sticking out from the tank for the new fittings.
I just told him cut one inch off the end put all 3 new fittings and new end, so i'm sure it will fit now.. about a 125.00 they said.
 
Lee, we are discussing holding tanks here and the water tanks are on another thread from last week. Sorry.
 
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