I have a 1979 Morgan 382 that I am going thru the ritual "spring get-ready". On close inspection of the rudder in preparation to bottom-paint, I've noticed a vertical crack on the forward edge that I would not have seen had I not had the steering linkage unhooked allowing the rudder to pivot almost 90 degrees.This crack runs from the bottom leading edge to about 3/4's of the way from the top.Inside looks rusty. My question is has anyone run across this? Is this very serious or is this common? Is the rudder hollow or solid? Should it be repaired/ replaced and is a replacement available? Any help would be appreciated.....thanks!!!!!!!
Problem with rudder?
- Thread starter jdgreen
- Start date
dickkilroy
Richard Kilroy
Gene: Foss Foam in Florida made the rudder and from there adds I believe they are still available. Rust would indicate water has gotten in and has attacked the stainless that holds the rudder to the shaft, this would be a major concern to me. I am not sure it can be repaired. Good luck
Dick Kilroy
Dick Kilroy
buckfd1aolcom
Frank Buck
Gene:
I have a 382 I bought in 1980. I have a similar situation on my rudder and it has existed for about 3 seasons. You may want to contact the company that Dick mentioned to see what their feelings are. I have no words of wisdom other then to tell you that I have the same problem on my rudder and it hasn't developed into anything major yet.
Best regards
Frank
I have a 382 I bought in 1980. I have a similar situation on my rudder and it has existed for about 3 seasons. You may want to contact the company that Dick mentioned to see what their feelings are. I have no words of wisdom other then to tell you that I have the same problem on my rudder and it hasn't developed into anything major yet.
Best regards
Frank
rangerm383
Dale Hedtke
Any more thoughts on this problem. Gene, what did you do about yours? I discovered my crack (well, you know what I mean) when I too disconnected the steering and was able to turn the rudder farther.
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
Dale
I have some rust weeping from the area on the rudder where the lower bronze grudgeon holds it. It's not much but I worry about the internal metal structure. I found a guy in Maryland who will grind the rudder open, repair the metal, replace any damaged foam and reglass it. His ballpark price was $1500. That is with me delivering the rudder to him and picking it up when finished. His name is: Rick's Marine, 5000 Piney Neck Road, Rockhall, MD, 21661. His Phone numbers are: 410-639-7367 home and 410-708-1480 cell. I was going to use him this winter but ran into a problem with the yard I'm in about digging a hole in the ground the slide the rudder out. Next Fall I'll remove the rudder with the boat in the slings before they block it up. Hope this helps.
Jim
I have some rust weeping from the area on the rudder where the lower bronze grudgeon holds it. It's not much but I worry about the internal metal structure. I found a guy in Maryland who will grind the rudder open, repair the metal, replace any damaged foam and reglass it. His ballpark price was $1500. That is with me delivering the rudder to him and picking it up when finished. His name is: Rick's Marine, 5000 Piney Neck Road, Rockhall, MD, 21661. His Phone numbers are: 410-639-7367 home and 410-708-1480 cell. I was going to use him this winter but ran into a problem with the yard I'm in about digging a hole in the ground the slide the rudder out. Next Fall I'll remove the rudder with the boat in the slings before they block it up. Hope this helps.
Jim
I have nothing to gain by this nor have I done business with this company, but I have read that they do a very good job at reasonable prices.
You might be able to buy a whole new rudder for about the same amount.
Their rudders are suppose to preform better tha the stock ones.
IdaSailor Marine
1-866-400-2204
http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php
You might be able to buy a whole new rudder for about the same amount.
Their rudders are suppose to preform better tha the stock ones.
IdaSailor Marine
1-866-400-2204
http://www.idasailor.com/catalog/default.php
Dale,
I don't know why you have to dig a hole. I've seen rudders removed before. The yard puts jack stands under the aft section of the boat and jacks it up just enough to pull the rudder. If they don't have enough clearance, they shove another railroad tie under the aft end of your keel, and lift the front placing another railroad tie under that end. Then they lift from the back again. It's a lot easier than digging a hole.
Larry
I don't know why you have to dig a hole. I've seen rudders removed before. The yard puts jack stands under the aft section of the boat and jacks it up just enough to pull the rudder. If they don't have enough clearance, they shove another railroad tie under the aft end of your keel, and lift the front placing another railroad tie under that end. Then they lift from the back again. It's a lot easier than digging a hole.
Larry
spowellmorgan38
Capt Steve
I dug a hole for mine too. The problem here is that when the yard monkeys touch the boat it cost me more money. So, through the rocks I dug, dropped the rudder, did my thing and covered up the hole.
Capt Steve
Powell's HIGH LIFE
78' Morgan 382
Rochester, NY
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
Larry
You understand that I am in a Brewer yard. It's the land of NO. Unless, of course, the price is right and they feel generous enough with their time to help you out. As it was, the discussion about digging the hole sounded like I wanted to violate their teenage daughter. Like Steve says, digging the hole is quick and safe (even through rocks). Next fall I'll have all my ducks in a row and the rudder will be out before they know it. The question of a new rudder is interesting. Has anyone purchased a new one? It will be worth the time to compare new vs repaired.
Jim
You understand that I am in a Brewer yard. It's the land of NO. Unless, of course, the price is right and they feel generous enough with their time to help you out. As it was, the discussion about digging the hole sounded like I wanted to violate their teenage daughter. Like Steve says, digging the hole is quick and safe (even through rocks). Next fall I'll have all my ducks in a row and the rudder will be out before they know it. The question of a new rudder is interesting. Has anyone purchased a new one? It will be worth the time to compare new vs repaired.
Jim
I am in a little marina in Edgewater, Md and there's a sportfish boat builder here who's doing the rudder-increase on my '78 M382 for materials and labor - approx $500. He's adding on top and 3.5" on the bottom - this is a compromise to all that I have read here on the arguments of adding above and below - so I did both. He's using carbon fiber glass to reinforce.
We found a long crack down the front of the rudder which he says is only cosmetic from where they jointed the rudder together. When ground down, you could clearly see the joint was perfectly intact and that only the gelcoat has cracked.
He's supposed to finish it this week - I'll report with pics as they come available.
On the hole- my boat is standard blocked and I dug about a 2.5' deep hole and covered it before anyone noticed - well, I am in the back of the yard so no one would notice or care as no heavy machinery can come this way.
Tony
We found a long crack down the front of the rudder which he says is only cosmetic from where they jointed the rudder together. When ground down, you could clearly see the joint was perfectly intact and that only the gelcoat has cracked.
He's supposed to finish it this week - I'll report with pics as they come available.
On the hole- my boat is standard blocked and I dug about a 2.5' deep hole and covered it before anyone noticed - well, I am in the back of the yard so no one would notice or care as no heavy machinery can come this way.
Tony
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
BE CAREFUL in blocking under the after end of the keel, below the holding tank. You don't want to place lots of boat weight there, according to lots of previous posts. Have them hang the boat from slings if you don't want to dig a hole, but please don't block the back of the boat up with jack stands. She has to sit on the keel.
jesse_garman
Jesse Garman
I received a quote for a new rudder from Foss Foam of $2000.
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
Jim
I think I'll do a bit more research into this rudder repair before I make a decision. Last winter I drill a number of holes into the rudder at different locations to see if water was trapped inside. It was dry. The rust weep I have is only near the lower grudgeon. Maybe the answer is to grind open a small area above the grudgeon and see what the story is. My rudder doesn't have the crack along the forward edge so my damage may be minor. I'd be interested in what, if any, repairs were done to other rudders. Thanks.
Jim
I think I'll do a bit more research into this rudder repair before I make a decision. Last winter I drill a number of holes into the rudder at different locations to see if water was trapped inside. It was dry. The rust weep I have is only near the lower grudgeon. Maybe the answer is to grind open a small area above the grudgeon and see what the story is. My rudder doesn't have the crack along the forward edge so my damage may be minor. I'd be interested in what, if any, repairs were done to other rudders. Thanks.
Jim
maluhia
Jim Ball
I'm not sure if I would worry about it. I think if you took a poll, you would find alot of owners with the same issue. I had a little seapage every time I hauled. My rudder was extended/enlarged while on the boat. It cost about $650 while they were doing other bottom work. Just remember, more can be added to the bottom of the 6 foot draught model than the 5 foot. I would waste my time adding to the top sense it is in bad water and adds little to the surface area that is where it is needed the most!
Jim
Jim
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
Jim
I'm not sure I would want to add more rudder to the bottom where it would be beyond the protection of the skeg. Years ago someone posted photos on the board of a rudder modification where the top was raised on an angle to follow the angle of the hull then went beyond the trailing edge to a point where the new trailing edge was then vertical. That appeared to add a good deal of rudder area without going deeper. I'm not well versed in hydrodynamics enough to know which would provide the better effect, up & aft or down. Maybe this thread will generate some lively responses. If as you say, that a lot of boats have the rust weep, then maybe I'm just overly concerned about a minor thing.
Jim
I'm not sure I would want to add more rudder to the bottom where it would be beyond the protection of the skeg. Years ago someone posted photos on the board of a rudder modification where the top was raised on an angle to follow the angle of the hull then went beyond the trailing edge to a point where the new trailing edge was then vertical. That appeared to add a good deal of rudder area without going deeper. I'm not well versed in hydrodynamics enough to know which would provide the better effect, up & aft or down. Maybe this thread will generate some lively responses. If as you say, that a lot of boats have the rust weep, then maybe I'm just overly concerned about a minor thing.
Jim
jesse_garman
Jesse Garman
Jim,
The $2000 was for the newer style.
The $2000 was for the newer style.
Victor Copelan
Member
The top of the 382 rudder is really where the problem is. Water flows thru the gap between the hull and rudder rather than across the face of the rudder. In other words without flow over the face of the rudder it loses it effectiveness.
Michael Freemon had rather unique solution to this problem. He added "boundry plates" to the face of the rudder(2 plates parallel to the water line one at the bottom and one at the top of the rudder). This corrected his water flow problem and gave him a much more effieient rudder.
When Oconee comes out this summer, I plan on both filling in the gap at the top and adding boundry plates to the rudder. I'll post my results, but it will probably be October before I get back in the water.
Fairwinds and Rum Drinks,
Vic
Michael Freemon had rather unique solution to this problem. He added "boundry plates" to the face of the rudder(2 plates parallel to the water line one at the bottom and one at the top of the rudder). This corrected his water flow problem and gave him a much more effieient rudder.
When Oconee comes out this summer, I plan on both filling in the gap at the top and adding boundry plates to the rudder. I'll post my results, but it will probably be October before I get back in the water.
Fairwinds and Rum Drinks,
Vic
Let me put my oar in the water a bit re this rudder thing.
A rudder steers a boat by applying a force athwart ships at the stern. This force pushes the stern sideways and causes the boat to turn or stay on coarse as necessary. It generates this force by accelerating the water to one side as it passes through the water distorting the streamline of the water. Two mechanisms are at work here. First, the streamline encounters the rudder on the forward side and is forced to the side by the increased pressure and second, the streamline is distorted at the back of the rudder by a low pressure. Most of this force is generated near the leading edge of the rudder. Adding area at the trailing edge increases drag faster than it increases authority.
The pressure is a function of the mass of the water, the angle of the rudder, and the relative speed of the boat. The low pressure is similar except that it is limited by the head pressure of the water. This head pressure is zero at the surface and increases at a rate of one half pound per square inch per foot of depth. A rudder that extends above the surface will cavitate at any speed to a depth where the stream pressure and the head pressure are equal.
There is also an end effect which reduces the authority of the rudder. Water on the pressure side washes around the bottom and top surfaces to the low pressure side leaving a vortex in the wake. Adding horizontal end plates at the top and bottom of the rudder prevent this wash and increases the apparent height and authority of the rudder. A bonus is that the vortex is significantly decreased so that the end plates don't add any significant drag.
One more thing about rudders. The force generated by the slipstream / rudder is at right angles to the rudder. The force that steers the boat is the vector component that is at right angles to the boat. The other vector component is the induced drag which slows the boat.
A very small amount of weather helm is a good thing. It makes the boat easier to steer, produces very little induced drag, and actually pushes the boat to windward. As the rudder angle increases, however, the induced drag of the rudder increases which decreases boat speed. At a rudder angle of ten degrees, The induced drag is about 20% of the total force generated by the rudder.
This represents some of my thoughts re improving rudder authority on your boats. Hope it helps.
Bill Buebel, CM381 Shadow
A rudder steers a boat by applying a force athwart ships at the stern. This force pushes the stern sideways and causes the boat to turn or stay on coarse as necessary. It generates this force by accelerating the water to one side as it passes through the water distorting the streamline of the water. Two mechanisms are at work here. First, the streamline encounters the rudder on the forward side and is forced to the side by the increased pressure and second, the streamline is distorted at the back of the rudder by a low pressure. Most of this force is generated near the leading edge of the rudder. Adding area at the trailing edge increases drag faster than it increases authority.
The pressure is a function of the mass of the water, the angle of the rudder, and the relative speed of the boat. The low pressure is similar except that it is limited by the head pressure of the water. This head pressure is zero at the surface and increases at a rate of one half pound per square inch per foot of depth. A rudder that extends above the surface will cavitate at any speed to a depth where the stream pressure and the head pressure are equal.
There is also an end effect which reduces the authority of the rudder. Water on the pressure side washes around the bottom and top surfaces to the low pressure side leaving a vortex in the wake. Adding horizontal end plates at the top and bottom of the rudder prevent this wash and increases the apparent height and authority of the rudder. A bonus is that the vortex is significantly decreased so that the end plates don't add any significant drag.
One more thing about rudders. The force generated by the slipstream / rudder is at right angles to the rudder. The force that steers the boat is the vector component that is at right angles to the boat. The other vector component is the induced drag which slows the boat.
A very small amount of weather helm is a good thing. It makes the boat easier to steer, produces very little induced drag, and actually pushes the boat to windward. As the rudder angle increases, however, the induced drag of the rudder increases which decreases boat speed. At a rudder angle of ten degrees, The induced drag is about 20% of the total force generated by the rudder.
This represents some of my thoughts re improving rudder authority on your boats. Hope it helps.
Bill Buebel, CM381 Shadow
I interviewed Pete Brown about the production of the Brewer 38. My interview is in one of the last newsletters under the title "True Draft". Pete said that adding the portion to the top greatly improved the performance of the rudder. You need to remember that when the boat is moving at speed the stern and the rudder are about a foot deeper in the water due to the boat sinking in the stern wave.
Jay
Jay
Well said Jay - I was wondering when someone was going to note that the rudder's depth changes as the boat is heeled into her sweet spot.
Another point that no one has made is that the x3 and x4 model rudders were increased while the rigs were changed also - shorter boom and taller mast thus moving the CoE to alleviate wx helm and ease of balancing the sails. Morgan/Brewer made a design change - a production correction -which must have been substantially researched. Therefore - the rudder increase is a definite improvement - either up or down, however, the factory went up. Point to ponder.
I took these into consideration and am putting up and down 3".
By the way - the new Nanni Diesel 4 banger is in the boat, waiting for my rigger to show up and I can start putting everything back together...The Nanni fits beautifully - looking forward to the 4 cyl vs 3 Yanmar. Should be really nice smooth power.
Aren't our boats just too cool???!!!
Happy sails to you all - great message string!
Smooth sailing and fresh warm breezes,
Capt. Tony Carey
S/V Papeche
Another point that no one has made is that the x3 and x4 model rudders were increased while the rigs were changed also - shorter boom and taller mast thus moving the CoE to alleviate wx helm and ease of balancing the sails. Morgan/Brewer made a design change - a production correction -which must have been substantially researched. Therefore - the rudder increase is a definite improvement - either up or down, however, the factory went up. Point to ponder.
I took these into consideration and am putting up and down 3".
By the way - the new Nanni Diesel 4 banger is in the boat, waiting for my rigger to show up and I can start putting everything back together...The Nanni fits beautifully - looking forward to the 4 cyl vs 3 Yanmar. Should be really nice smooth power.
Aren't our boats just too cool???!!!
Happy sails to you all - great message string!
Smooth sailing and fresh warm breezes,
Capt. Tony Carey
S/V Papeche
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
I e-mailed Al Walker at Foss Foam to ask about the rust weep that I have in my 1978 382 rudder. His reply came this morning and I would like to share it with the board. The questions are mine.
Jim
How dangerous is this condition? Assuming that this is the original rudder it could be a big problem. They were made with a resin putty core. Typically resin putty hardens in large quantities leaving small cracks throughout. The area of concern is the tangs/or plate welded to the shaft extending toward the trailing edge. Seeing rust colored water drain out may be an indication that the tangs/plate had deteriorated. If this breaks free from the shaft you loose steering. Is it something I can live with? Not a good idea. Is it something I can repair myself? I don't know. Would need more info. If it is something that needs attention, is it advisable to do a repair or to purchase a new rudder? If this is the original rudder it would be a very difficult repair. I would imagine that there are hundreds of cracks. If a new unit is required, are your replacement rudders of the original style or do the reflect modifications that were made to later Morgan models? We have the M 383/384 mold. I believe it is an upgrade from your rudder. If so, What would the cost of such a rudder be? 1445.00 FOB And lastly, what would it cost to ship to Long Island, NY? 150-200.00.
Thanks for your inquiry.
Al Walker
Jim
How dangerous is this condition? Assuming that this is the original rudder it could be a big problem. They were made with a resin putty core. Typically resin putty hardens in large quantities leaving small cracks throughout. The area of concern is the tangs/or plate welded to the shaft extending toward the trailing edge. Seeing rust colored water drain out may be an indication that the tangs/plate had deteriorated. If this breaks free from the shaft you loose steering. Is it something I can live with? Not a good idea. Is it something I can repair myself? I don't know. Would need more info. If it is something that needs attention, is it advisable to do a repair or to purchase a new rudder? If this is the original rudder it would be a very difficult repair. I would imagine that there are hundreds of cracks. If a new unit is required, are your replacement rudders of the original style or do the reflect modifications that were made to later Morgan models? We have the M 383/384 mold. I believe it is an upgrade from your rudder. If so, What would the cost of such a rudder be? 1445.00 FOB And lastly, what would it cost to ship to Long Island, NY? 150-200.00.
Thanks for your inquiry.
Al Walker
I think may rudder is in the first stage of deterioration. I noticed that my weather helm on port tack is about 5-7 degrees more then on the starboard tack. This has been the case since last season, and yes I have rust weeping from it. I need to verify this before going with the replacement. At this point I can not think of anything else that would cause this behaviour. I am thinking of fixing this myself or getting one from Foss. If I can get the detailed drawing of the rudder shaft with internal structure that would help. Has anybody have a print or a skech available, please post it or e-mail me at tomaszdotpoatmtdotcom.
Thanks,
Tom
Thanks,
Tom
s_horton
Steven Horton M384 Zingara
Tomasz - 5-7 degrees of weather helm could be caused by many things. Shroud tension, mast alignment, cable adjustment on rudder, weight distribution on the boat, mainsheet traveler adjustment, etc., etc.
You may need a rudder, but I wouldn't assume this from your weather helm.
You may need a rudder, but I wouldn't assume this from your weather helm.
It is a puzzle to me, I will not know until I hull out, at the moment I suspect rudder,
but it may be a combination of other things.
Weight distribution and rig tension have not changed since 2010. Motoring is straight,
bottom is rather clean. I have 2 year old main, so this could be my 135%, quite old and I am sure is out of shape. Will see after hull-out. By the way, current quote for new rudder from newrudders.com is $2264+shipping
Tom
but it may be a combination of other things.
Weight distribution and rig tension have not changed since 2010. Motoring is straight,
bottom is rather clean. I have 2 year old main, so this could be my 135%, quite old and I am sure is out of shape. Will see after hull-out. By the way, current quote for new rudder from newrudders.com is $2264+shipping
Tom
Tom, I have to agree with Steven. The weather helm problem does not sound like a rudder cause, unless the rudder has taken on a curve distortion.
Put your eye on the sail track and look up the mast. It should be as straight as an arrow. If it has a wiggle adjust the rigging to make it straight.
Larry
Put your eye on the sail track and look up the mast. It should be as straight as an arrow. If it has a wiggle adjust the rigging to make it straight.
Larry
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
Tom
Before you order a rudder, give it a test with the boat out of the water (or in the water with a diver). Hold the quadrant rock steady (block it up so it can't move at all) then try to move the rudder side to side. If there is movement then the rudder shaft is loose in the rudder and needs to be replaced. If it doesn't move, and the rudder is not visibly misshapen, then look elsewhere for your helm problems.
Before you order a rudder, give it a test with the boat out of the water (or in the water with a diver). Hold the quadrant rock steady (block it up so it can't move at all) then try to move the rudder side to side. If there is movement then the rudder shaft is loose in the rudder and needs to be replaced. If it doesn't move, and the rudder is not visibly misshapen, then look elsewhere for your helm problems.
Tom,
If you don't mind, could you give us a clarification on what is happening. I re-read your post and it sounds like you are saying (in different words) that when you are on port tack the steering wheel feels heavier and is turned about a full spoke more then when you are on starboard tack? And you are sailing the boat the same angle off the wind, as in tacking to windward?
Larry
If you don't mind, could you give us a clarification on what is happening. I re-read your post and it sounds like you are saying (in different words) that when you are on port tack the steering wheel feels heavier and is turned about a full spoke more then when you are on starboard tack? And you are sailing the boat the same angle off the wind, as in tacking to windward?
Larry
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
Of course, you can only tell, as Jim suggests, by moving things around. But if you have rust leaking out of the rudder, that calls for very careful out of the water inspection, in any case. I have never opened up a Morgan rudder, but they presumably are standard construction--stainless framework, filled with foam or, it sounds like, putty, then glassed over. Rust indicates a problem with the frame or the frame attachments to the rudder post. Please keep us all informed of what you find.
This is not as straightforward as one could think, what I am sure of is that when closed hulled or reaching this behavior is very evident: light wind < 12kn full main and 135%. The pressure on the wheel seams to be the same despite extra spoke. I added a rope luff ( poor mans foam luff) to 135% last year, and thought that this disturbs the flow over the geny and causes this behavior, but I also sailed with 110% which is a regular, no foam no rope head sail, and had the same thing happening. I had quite a good deal of barnacles on my rudder, that I removed recently, I am sure they are on my kill also, but I doubt that they elected to grow just on one side of the boat. I am going out tomorrow to try some other things, and will go from there. I will be hulling out in March next year for bottom paint and rudder, so will have a better idea what is going on.
Tom
Tom
I installed hydraulic ram autopilot few weeks back, and while doing this went through all the mechanicals related to the steering, so wheel and quadrant are centered, there is no play. Recently had a chance to sail next to another 382 from the area, wind was light and we were on a broad reach, same canvas, he was a bit faster a (1/4 mile maybe less) with his folding prop, so I suppose there is not that many barnacles on my kill.
When and if I finally find out the cause of this, I will post detailed account.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Tom
When and if I finally find out the cause of this, I will post detailed account.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Tom
If anyone is listening?
About a dozen years ago I had the late Carl Schumacher design a new rudder. He cut off the skeg 4 inches below the gudgeon, built a rudder that was a foot longer in an elliptical shape with balanced portion where the skeg was removed. It's still in there as of 2014 and it literally transformed the boat. Spinnaker round up? No way!
About a dozen years ago I had the late Carl Schumacher design a new rudder. He cut off the skeg 4 inches below the gudgeon, built a rudder that was a foot longer in an elliptical shape with balanced portion where the skeg was removed. It's still in there as of 2014 and it literally transformed the boat. Spinnaker round up? No way!
dickkilroy
Richard Kilroy
John: I didn't know you still owned your Morgan. I remember you from back in the fatal flaw days, and also you stating you were going to have Carl design a rudder for you.
I agree with Tom a picture would be absolutely wonderful.
Good to hear from you
Dick
I agree with Tom a picture would be absolutely wonderful.
Good to hear from you
Dick
dickkilroy
Richard Kilroy
John: a question I forgot in my first post. I thought Carl Schumacher told you that the 1/3/4nch shaft was too small for a spade rudder. Obviously he must've felt differently regarding a balanced rudder.
Again good to hear from you
Dick
Again good to hear from you
Dick
dickkilroy
Richard Kilroy
Guys: John English has responded to me. He did not say anything of the following to me but it is my opinion
He purchased the design from Schumacher and is a competitive racer. I feel he doesn't wish to share this with a new bunch of owners of these cherished yachts.
If you consider inflation the price I paid for Vixen in 1978 in current dollars exceeds 275,000. You'll find boats of comparable quality in this price range today.
I purchased the cutter rig design from Ted Brewer and have described it to others on this website and in person.
However I feel John as well as anyone else who purchases something has a right to it and to not share it at their discretion.
As many of us have said, this is a wonderful website managed beautifully by Larry Brown to whom we should all be grateful.
However to ask us old farts to give away the store is pushing it.
Dick
He purchased the design from Schumacher and is a competitive racer. I feel he doesn't wish to share this with a new bunch of owners of these cherished yachts.
If you consider inflation the price I paid for Vixen in 1978 in current dollars exceeds 275,000. You'll find boats of comparable quality in this price range today.
I purchased the cutter rig design from Ted Brewer and have described it to others on this website and in person.
However I feel John as well as anyone else who purchases something has a right to it and to not share it at their discretion.
As many of us have said, this is a wonderful website managed beautifully by Larry Brown to whom we should all be grateful.
However to ask us old farts to give away the store is pushing it.
Dick
Hi Dick:
I understand John's position. Unfortunately, given that the plans are lost and Carl is no longer with us, we cannot re-create what he accomplished.
From John's description, I can imagine what it looks like but more from curiosity than thoughts that I could replicate it, it would be great to see a photo.
I consider myself a competitive racer too. What's that got to do with it?
-Alan
I understand John's position. Unfortunately, given that the plans are lost and Carl is no longer with us, we cannot re-create what he accomplished.
From John's description, I can imagine what it looks like but more from curiosity than thoughts that I could replicate it, it would be great to see a photo.
I consider myself a competitive racer too. What's that got to do with it?
-Alan
maluhia
Jim Ball
There is something strange here, especially if you look at the historical past posts. First of all, exactly why eliminate the skeg and how you support the rudder? I do not get the design concept.
I can understand adding square inches to the rudder, but this unsubstantiated post I do not understand. The Morgan has always done well in races both onshore and offshore and this seems without merit if not substantiated.
Jim
I can understand adding square inches to the rudder, but this unsubstantiated post I do not understand. The Morgan has always done well in races both onshore and offshore and this seems without merit if not substantiated.
Jim
dickkilroy
Richard Kilroy
Gentlemen: to Allen if you have a modification and the boat has been measured to it this potentially will give you an advantage over boats of the different design.
I don't know why these postings should be considered unsubstantiated. If you check the archives you will find postings in the eighties from both John English and myself.
As to racing, I am not an around the buoys racer. I have however done six Marion to Bermuda races, five on Vixen, and came in third in class in the 1999 race
If I paid for something and did not choose to share it I believe that's my right.
Again John English did not express this opinion to me. This is my observation and conclusion.
Dick
I don't know why these postings should be considered unsubstantiated. If you check the archives you will find postings in the eighties from both John English and myself.
As to racing, I am not an around the buoys racer. I have however done six Marion to Bermuda races, five on Vixen, and came in third in class in the 1999 race
If I paid for something and did not choose to share it I believe that's my right.
Again John English did not express this opinion to me. This is my observation and conclusion.
Dick
dave_a
Dave Ahlers
For those of you who are into "rudder porn" check out the M-38 Photo gallery > 382 > Oconee. Vic's got a winglet!
I too am confused by this thread. Mr. English can do what he likes, of course.
I'm not sure its "sporting" to race with a (PHRF?) rating for M-382 and have a modified boat. Aren't you sailing out of your class, so to speak? Smacks of the Aussies vs Conner America's Cup.
Drop the curtain and unveil the secret wing keel!
Taking the skeg off with a Sawsall takes the 138 PHRF rating to what? 135? Who cares?
I want to go 10 knots+.
Much to do about nothing!
I too am confused by this thread. Mr. English can do what he likes, of course.
I'm not sure its "sporting" to race with a (PHRF?) rating for M-382 and have a modified boat. Aren't you sailing out of your class, so to speak? Smacks of the Aussies vs Conner America's Cup.
Drop the curtain and unveil the secret wing keel!
Taking the skeg off with a Sawsall takes the 138 PHRF rating to what? 135? Who cares?
I want to go 10 knots+.
Much to do about nothing!
I'm willing to share everything but I cannot figure out how to post a picture on this site. Can someone clear this up for me? Seriously, the plans were lost.
Thanks.
The PHRF committee is reluctant to modify the ratings because no one races this boat. A 153 second mile has yet to be obtained on my boat. Brewers comments were that the 6-foot draft only made the boat slower.
Thanks.
The PHRF committee is reluctant to modify the ratings because no one races this boat. A 153 second mile has yet to be obtained on my boat. Brewers comments were that the 6-foot draft only made the boat slower.
tfrere
Thomas McNulty
John
If you send me a photo of the rudder then I can either post it for you or resize it for you to post. Me email address is tgmcnulty@spectraenergy.com
If you send me a photo of the rudder then I can either post it for you or resize it for you to post. Me email address is tgmcnulty@spectraenergy.com
Hi John:
Where do you race? 153 sounds generous. Our PHRF committee takes a very hard line on modifications to standard configurations. Sounds like your rudder mod was well worth it given your rating. Unfortunately, while US Sailing maintains a databbase of ratings it is not uniformly administered. I sailed in the Morgan Invasion in Tampa one year on a friend's M384. Their rating was 197!
Our PHRF rating is 138 on Lake Lanier, GA based on a feathering prop, 150% genoa and standard dimension symetrical spinnaker and pole.
Of course the rating is not the speed of he boat in seconds per mile but a time adjustment of seconds per mile sailed.
Where do you race? 153 sounds generous. Our PHRF committee takes a very hard line on modifications to standard configurations. Sounds like your rudder mod was well worth it given your rating. Unfortunately, while US Sailing maintains a databbase of ratings it is not uniformly administered. I sailed in the Morgan Invasion in Tampa one year on a friend's M384. Their rating was 197!
Our PHRF rating is 138 on Lake Lanier, GA based on a feathering prop, 150% genoa and standard dimension symetrical spinnaker and pole.
Of course the rating is not the speed of he boat in seconds per mile but a time adjustment of seconds per mile sailed.
Alan,
We still do do selected off season races in SF bay primarily mid-winters and double handed. Most clubs have gone to windward/leeward course format,usually running 2 short races per day. Not exactly a cruisers strong suit. In the summer it blows 15-25 knots and it's really hard on the boat.
We used to race the Double Handed Farallones in the spring and the long 5 hour spinnaker reach back from the islands with following quartering seas is where the rudder really paid off. It used to completely wear us out by the time we hit the Golden Gate. As far as I know all the West Coast boats are cruisers.
We still do do selected off season races in SF bay primarily mid-winters and double handed. Most clubs have gone to windward/leeward course format,usually running 2 short races per day. Not exactly a cruisers strong suit. In the summer it blows 15-25 knots and it's really hard on the boat.
We used to race the Double Handed Farallones in the spring and the long 5 hour spinnaker reach back from the islands with following quartering seas is where the rudder really paid off. It used to completely wear us out by the time we hit the Golden Gate. As far as I know all the West Coast boats are cruisers.
Nice. It is what I imagined from your description. would you say it's about a foot deeper? Balanced section should help with steering load.
What kind of coating is that on your prop? I haven't seen a 4-blade prop on a Morgan. Do you know the diameter and pitch setting?
What kind of coating is that on your prop? I haven't seen a 4-blade prop on a Morgan. Do you know the diameter and pitch setting?
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
Very interesting. compare it to Maluhia, which saved the skeg, but dropped below it. This gives a leading balanced section to the rudder, which undoubtedly makes it more powerful. I rather like having the skeg as full protection, but many boats don't and they survive. I also might have had some concerns whether the stock and gudgeons were built to withstand those pressures, but if it has lasted for years, any such concerns have been shown wrong.
dave_a
Dave Ahlers
Are John Day's and Jim Ball's 382 both 6 foot draft boats ?
As envious as I may be of John's rudder (it looks right, but what do I know?).
I don't need to remove it on 40 Acre Shoal as I tried with the keel this summer. I find comfort that the tough old 5 foot keel will hit first.
That looks pretty good John, a bit of forward balance must ease the steering pressure? I have to steer down wind as the wheel pilot over works going down hill with the wind on the aft quarter. 180 degree wheel corrections in waves. Seems like she could use a bit more rudder. I get it.
As envious as I may be of John's rudder (it looks right, but what do I know?).
I don't need to remove it on 40 Acre Shoal as I tried with the keel this summer. I find comfort that the tough old 5 foot keel will hit first.
That looks pretty good John, a bit of forward balance must ease the steering pressure? I have to steer down wind as the wheel pilot over works going down hill with the wind on the aft quarter. 180 degree wheel corrections in waves. Seems like she could use a bit more rudder. I get it.
wild382
John
Having been a pilot the last 40 years...on aircraft a rudder like this is a "control surface" it has to be able to with stand some incredible forces being forward of the "hinge" point. The advantage is increased turning especially if you like flying sideways like I use to in aerobatic maneuvers! The down side is it also acts like a brake being forward of the air flow...so stalls can happen. Water being much denser than air...I'm just wondering if an marine engineer/designer came up with this rudder design...it looks like it would turn the host quite quickly.