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Perkins not running

schlepper

schlepper

John m. Harrison
I was readying to head out early this afternoon for a day of sailing with another couple who stayed on the boat with us last night.

I opened the throttle about 1/4", pushed in the shutoff nob, turned the key and it started right up. It was overrevving a bit so i pulled the throttle back and it shutoff. I could not get it running again. I have always been told if a diesel won't run it's likely bad fuel, no fuel or air in the fuel. I had drained off about 1/8-1/4" of fuel from my Racor 500 and found some junk but no water last weekend but have run it since then several times, no problem. Ichecked for leaks in the system, found none. So i commenced to bleed the filter on the engine. Made a mess but it had some air bubbles. Used manual lift pump, then i went to injector pump, loosened bleed valve on side of pump, no bubbles, still wouldnt start. Loosened injectors at 2,3&4, fuel drops were coming out, retightened, still won't start. Ran out of time.

I've changed fuel filters on Mercedes benz 300 which has a similar engine filter, have never had a problem like this? The fuel tank is 3/4 full and no samples show water or other contaminant issues.

Am i missing something simple here?! I also cannot find anywhere there is an air leak. I suspect partially draining the racor caused this. I did take the top off the racor and it took about half a SOLO cup of fuel. The accessibility is poor making doing anything much more of a headache to do anything.
 
OK, you asked for something simple that you didn't check... so, here goes... Did you open the engine cooling water valve... and if you didn't could overheating cause a problem restarting?

I need to take a diesel course, since I really don't understand even the basics. But, I am curious about what would happen if the cooling water valve was not opened.

Happy New Year!
Helene
 
It is possible that the primary CAV filter is partially clogged, you should be getting a heathy amount of fuel out of the injectors, not drops.
 
Helene, thanks for the post. I had the cooling water valve open (seacock valve at thruhull) when i first started it. I only closed it when repeated cranking did not start the engine. I think if you leave it open, repeated cranking without firing can cause the engine to ingest raw seawater in the exhaust valve given there is not the exhaust pressure to push the water out and it can back up.

Jose, i am going to go back either New Years day or this coming weekend, install a primer bulb, replace the filters and re bleed the thing. I have only owned the boat for 3 months but it has just run too well so far for me to believe it is anything but a fuel/filter/priming issue.

I was thinking this morning that it could've blown a head gasket, but i just don't see a cause for it to have done that. It literally cranked right up, ran for about 5-8 seconds and shut down, just as if i pulled the stop handle out which again, tells me it is a fuel supply issue.
 
John
It may be the lift pump for the fuel. Although when the pump starts to go the engine runs at idle but stalls when you accelerate.

Jim
 
John,
You mentioned draining the Recor. Maybe you should have changed it. And, again you say you bleed the main engine filter, but you did not change it. Perhaps your filter or filters are cloged a bit. On another subject, how about the battery? It might be strong enough to give you light and to turn the engine, but not strong enough to start the engine. You did say that you spent overnight aboard. You might have drained your battery more than you think.
These are just simple out of the box thoughts, thinking that the answer might be simple. It's a new boat to you, so your intuition has not kicked in yet.
Maybe,
Larry
 
Another possibly is a chunk of debris in the tank that obstructs the pickup tube when the pump draws fuel. But I would guess lift pump diaphragm is cracked and it is somewhat easy to check. Good luck and Happy New Year to all!
Jim
 
My two cents - John, depending where you are, the local temperature may be the culprit... Perkins (an old tractor engine) does not come with glow plugs, as most modern diesels do.
I found the following information from the Agricultural Extension Service at the University of Tennessee... some food for thought.

Starting diesel engines during cold weather can be frustrating if engines are not properly prepared for lower temperatures. Batteries that are weak may not crank the starter motor fast enough or long enough to start a cold engine. As the temperature goes down, so does battery capacity. A battery that has all of its power available at 80 degrees F will have only about 46% available power at 0 degrees F. Plus, the engine will be 2.5 times harder to start at 0 degrees due to thicker oil and resistance to movement of internal moving parts. In effect, an engine is about five times harder to start at 0 degrees F than at 80 degrees F. Test weak or suspicious batteries under load before cold weather to help eliminate potential problems during busy times. If batteries need replacement, always replace with a battery equal to or more powerful than the original battery. Accessories such as radios, air conditioners, heaters and other high amperage devices put extra strain on batteries. Turn all of these devices off while the starter motor is in use.

Use glow plugs or block heaters on the engine for cold weather starts. Glow plugs heat the internal combustion chamber area to suitable temperatures for combustion. Otherwise, cold fuel sprayed into the chamber and onto the glow plugs can gel and adhere to these parts. Hard starting and inefficient combustion occur with potential for damage to plugs and cylinder heads.

Use Number 1 diesel fuel in cold weather. It is more volatile than Number 2 fuel and ignites more readily under cold conditions. Keep the fuel tank full to prevent condensation inside the tank. Water from condensation can freeze and plug fuel lines from the tank to the engine. Add winter diesel fuel additive to the fuel to lower the possibility of gelling and improve starting.

Store tractors inside tool sheds, barns, garages or other suitable locations that are heated or warmer than outside temperatures. Only a few degrees warmer temperature can make starting faster and easier. The warmer the battery is, the more power it can provide to the starter motor to crank the engine. The warmer the engine oil is, the thinner it will be and have less resistance to moving engine parts. Make sure you are using the proper viscosity oil recommended for your engine for cold temperatures. If you cannot store engines inside or in a heated area, install a block heater on the engine. To save time and electricity, put the block heater on an electrical timer set to come on a couple of hours before you plan to start the engine.

If you suspect fuel has gelled from cold temperatures, change the fuel filter and warm the fuel (wait for the outside temperature to rise, use a block heater or put the tractor inside a heated area) before attempting to start the engine. Gelled fuel in the filter can block the flow of fuel from the tank to the injector pump.

After starting the engine on a cold day, allow the engine to warm up a few minutes before putting the tractor under load. Proper engine operation temperatures assure more efficient fuel combustion and may prevent damage to cold engine parts. Engine oil flows more readily at operating temperatures and allows proper lubrication of upper engine parts and areas.
 
Helene -

The engine can start without raw water cooling valve being open - but the lack of cooling on the engine should set off the temperature alarm, and you'll start to see more exhaust than normal, and smell a burning smell. That's what happened to me when one of the rubber vanes broke off in the raw water pump and blocked the discharge port from the pump to the heat exchange. The engine would have kept working until it overheated. I shut it down when I smelled the odor and saw the exhaust. It was an easy fix to replace the impeller.
 
While on my vacation cruise in 2011 my engine did the same. It started, ran about 5-10 seconds and died. for the rest of the cruise I would prime the system each time before starting it. That worked most times but I also became very adept at bleeding the injectors... quickly, when it didn't. When the diaphragm is perforated it allows the fuel to drain back to the filter. If the primer lever on you lift pump feels unrestricted and then pumps up to pressure this may be your problem.

It eventually was diagnosed as a perforated diaphragm on the lift pump. I had it replaced and have been trouble-free ever since.

Good Luck, I wish I could sail on New Years Day.

Alan Shapiro
s/v Emanon
Falmouth, Maine
 
I have a small electric fuel pump installed upstream of the filters. It keeps my injector pump with a positive pressure on the suction side. These pumps are about $25 at an auto parts store and are very easy to install. May be worth a try.
I agree that it is likely a fuel issue. Since it started and ran a few seconds, it is not a temperature problem.
Tommy
 
Thanks to all for the input. I am at work today but it just popped into my mind the lift pump could be the culprit. When i pump it, it moves fuel thru the system, but if it's diaphram is perforated, where do i get a new or rebuilt lift pump? Are they readily available and easy to install?
 
Definitely fuel. I had an issue with the seal between the metal housing of the primary filter on the motor and the bracket it is nestled in. There is a thin gasket ring that should be between those two metal surfaces that was inside the housing of the filter. Just before it died it would rev the rpm as there was more oxygen in the combustion. So what you described is exactly what I witnessed. Since you didn't change that filter (I had changed mine) I doubt it is that gasket and the recommendations on it being the lift pump sound good.

Larry Brown
S/V Ridiculous
 
I think the backside of the diaphragm is toward the interior of the motor as it is possible for such a leak to allow fuel into the oil. I would think it's equally possible to draw air from that other side and may explain the air and then lack of ability to re-prime.

Larry
 
I have checked the travel on the engine stop lever and it travels all the way okay. I am going to order the pump and if it is not the pump at least i will have a spare. Anyone know the specs on the lift pump pressure if i was to get an electric backup?

Thomas mcnulty, do you have a pic of your setup i might use to model mine? If so please email to jmharrison123@yahoo.com

Larry brown, and everyone else, many thanks for the input and concern, i feel so welcome to the board being a newbie here and also to sailing!
 
John,
You can get a new pump from Trans Atlantic Diesel. I ordered one last year and if I remember correctly it was less than $50. I am not a fan of electric pumps, if you spring a leak you will pump your fuel tank into the bilge.
 
Thanks Jose, i will go online and order tonite. I guess i should also plan to change the oil as it sounds like as with old V8 passenger cars from my younger days, if the mechanical fuel pump went kaput, you likely had gasoline enriched motor oil, only in this case it is diesel fuel in the venerable Perkins!
 
As an add on to this story, it felt like the manual pump lever on the lift pump would go about halfway down it's travel before it felt like there was any pressure on the fuel, which is what led me to think it was bad and as well it was making a noise as i pumped that could've been air being drawn in from a perforated diaphragm and the source of the air being the crank case? Hopefully describing symptoms like this will help someone coming behind me!

Does thatvsound like a defective lift pump?!
 
This a mechanical lift pump with the connection to engine only driving the lever action of the pump to force fuel to the injection pump. Check the diaphragm and screws securing it. Inspect closely for cracks or perforations. I like a electric fuel pump before the lift pump to force fuel to the engine in starved conditions, if you can switch on fast enough. So many ideas, so little time and $$$$s. HAPPY HEALTHY NEW YEAR!
Jim
 
John, I agree with others on probable lift pump failure (but air can be potentially intoduced at any loose fitting/hose).

If you had a Racor vacuum gauge in replacement of the Racor filter's T handle (or plumbed into the fuel lines) you wouldn't be forced to guess if you have an air leak (0 or very low vacuum) = bad lift pump. You can also monitor the fuel filter's condition (high vac = clogged filter).

IIRC, upstream of the pump, your fuel system should hold 3-4" of vacuum if your lift pump is working properly.
Good luck.
 
Thank you David for the response. I have seen people refer to vacuum gauges to monitor filter condition but i haven't gotten to the point of digging into it.

I think i will no though, placing one where the T handle goes sounds very easy and no modification required.

Thanks again!
 
One other thing I'd like to add to this is that I have an electric pump as well but it is only used to bleed the motor. In all other circumstances the motor pulls the fuel normally which goes through the electric pump unimpeded. Or at least impeded to such a small degree the motor runs fine.

That should all but remove the possibility of observing a leak where the electric pump pumps all your fuel into the bilge.

And your last description of hearing what could be sucking air in the pump stroke sounds like a smoking gun to me. <img src="http://morgan38.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif" alt=":)" border="0"> (That is unless the air is coming in upstream and you are hearing the air sloshing with the fuel in the diaphragm. <img src="http://morgan38.org/discus/clipart/sad.gif" alt=":-(" border="0">

Anyway, this is all academic since you have a new one on the way. Good luck!

Larry
S/V Ridiculous
 
Larry, I am contemplated the installation of a pump as you describe. What kind and capacity pump did you install?

Tommy McNulty says his auxiliary pump runs all the time the engine is running. But I might not want to do that.
Thanks.
 
I don't know the specs on it. I'm not going to be down to the boat again for at least another week and a half as I'm traveling on business. I would consult with Transatlantic Diesel as to which you should purchase for use only during bleeding of the system and they should steer you to the right pump. They are pretty knowledgeable and are pretty easy going. I saw a post earlier from Jose that he got one for $50 from them. It's more than you'd pay at an auto parts store but they will know which unit to hook you up with.

Larry
S/V Ridiculous
 
I ordered the new pump today and dealt with Sherry and Marcus. Seemed like very good people to work with. I will call them back tomorrow and inquire about that electrical pump.

Anyone on the board convert their Perkins 4-108 to serpentine belt? It sure looks tantalizing but i don't see a price for it, will possibly ask tomorrow. I have a high output balmar alternator and can hear the belt sing a bit at first when i charge both batteries banks.
 
My fuel system has developed a blockage up steam from the engine. I believe it is the fuel pickup tube. I disconnected the fuel hose before the Racor filter, and cannot blow air back to the tank. No check valve or closed shutoff valve is between the tank and end of the hose.

Has anyone encounter this?

Does anyone know how to unblock the pickup tube without removing it?

If it has to be removed, how can this be done?
 
I removed the tube! The tube is soldered onto the bottom of the tank supply elbow (90 deg. fitting)which is easily removed. It was not completely plugged, but quite dirty, enough to cause restriction. Acetone is effective in dissolving the crud. The tube is 9 inches long, and the tank 11 inches deep. Seems this would allow only ~ 80% of the tank contents to be usable.

I hope this helps me solve my engine problem. My wife were 14 miles from the Little Bahama Bank when we plugged our third Racor filter in 10 hours. The last one was in an hour and a half, and the engine would not prime. The elements did not look dirty. Because our lift pump would not maintain flow to prime and the elements were not dirty, I suspected a blockage up steam of the Racor.

We were 48 miles from both Mangrove Cay and Ft.Pierce Inlet, wind calm, and drifting north with the Gulf Steam sometimes at over 5 knots. We decided to head west.

Fortunately, our boats do well in light wind, so we made it home in 24 hours after drifting north 40 miles.

This was our first problem in 23 trips to the Bahamas!
 
Have you suction applied to the fuel line prior to the Racor? That may force any debris up out of the tank.
Jim
 
Did a lumpy stream crossing stirred up the algae and years of accumuated tar off the bottom? Time for a tank & fuel clean/condtioner treatment?
 
First thing I did after I signed the papers on my 384 was to call the fuel cleaner guy. He filtered the whole tank of fuel removed the pick up tube and moped all the inside shinny ! and he showed me. best 150 I have spent. cause now i know all the filters changed and oil and i start fresh.
Before i go to the Bahamas next spring I'll have it done again..
Just to keep momma happy ! and me out of the dog house.. Thats worth 150 any day !
Lee/ Wind Rose
 
I don't believe it is necessary to polish the fuel often, perhaps every 5-10 years is all. It is better to have a good filtration system and keep the tank full and use an additive like Biobor.
Jim
 
Jim,

I agree. We bought our boat in St. Pete FL. It had sat for 5 years. First thing I did was call the "Fuel Doc" there in St. Pete. He polished the fuel without going onboard, just used the fuel fill on deck. He said the diesel looked like CocaCola. Since then, with regualar use, the fuel has stayed pretty clean. I can tell by looking at the Racor. Of course, it's not a bad idea to use BioBor or something like it.

I never would have guessed that the pick-up tube had a 90 degree fitting on it. I may pull mine during the repower effort and just have a look.

Tim
 
I would use a stick or something to measure down into the tank before I concluded that the pick up tube is 2 inches off the bottom. That seems awfully high, although since there is no small "water and crude" sump, maybe they are trying to protect us. It should be down to less than an inch above the bottom of the tank, I should think. I have been down to 3 or so gallons and not drawn air, I think.
 
I am incredibly careful about fuel. I filter it into jerry cans and again into the boat. I buy it at gas stations, and never in the Bahamas. I use biocide and Stanidyne, always keep the tank full.

And yes this is related to rolling around in 4 ft. seas with no wind, I am going to have the tank emptied and cleaned. If the tube is any indication, the tank and fuel are dirty.

The 90 degree fitting is on the plate at the top of the tank. There is one for the return also.

I now have good flow when I blow from the Racor to the tank. I can hear the bubbling.

I have good flow of fuel out of the bleed screw on the injector pump. Still not starting though. I need to keep cranking with the high pressure pipes loosened at the injectors to get all the air out.

I got a vacuum gauge for my Racor from TAD. Better than the Racor gauge and better price at $75. I am not indicating vacuum at the Racor so I think I removed the plug or restriction.
 
Terry,

That is what I did. I have had the boat for 15 of her 29 years and have not modified the tube - therefore likely original. I would have expected the tube to 1 inch off the tank bottom, not 2 inches.

Anybody else ever checked?
 
John, I would advise an automotive fuel pump, after the Racor(s)and mounted outside the fuel system with 3 way valves, to allow pushing fuel into the engine and enabling bleeding and filling the filters and eliminating air. If you polish the fuel, I would recommend removing the metal tank access plate and having vendor move the vacuum and return hoses around in the full tank, not an empty tank.

I think the pickup tube is designed properly.
Jim
 
You might want to check the check valve at the entrance to the Racor. I assume all the systems have one to prevent fuel flowing back to the tank when the engine is off. I once had the engine shut down because the check valve was plugged. Got a lot of junk out of it.
 
John: Congrats on the fuel pickup removal and cleaning. I'll be in touch periodically on the trip.
-Alan
 
Turned out I had an air leak from a low pressure fitting that was not tight enough. Once tightened, she primed and started right up.

Alan, have a great sail. I look forward to hearing from you when you get to the Azores.
 
The fuel tank is considerably wider at the top than the bottom, and volume vs. depth is non-linear. Even with the tube 2 inches off the tank bottom, we are getting a lot more than 80% use of the tank, and still have a sump for settling of solids.
 
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