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Just put a 384 (gorma) under contract. Anything particular a surveyor should look for?

Troy

Troy

New Member
Hi,

My wife and I just put an '83 Morgan 384 under contract. Is there anything specific we should have the surveyor look for particular to Morgan's? We are very excited and have been looking at Morgan's awhile particularly because of their reliability, sail-ability, and owner's network. Regards, Troy & Rikke
 
Hi Troy & Rikke, and welcome aboard. I hope your purchase goes smoothly and that you'll soon be joining the Morganeers.

In case you haven't noticed, you've joined right in the middle of us transitioning from an older system onto this newer system. There might be a little delay before our gurus respond.

I'm not aware of any special "bewares" on the 384, but the others will chime in here. If you have a good surveyor, they'll know all of "normal" things to look for on a 30+ year old boat.

Our surveyor was very impressed with our 384. He was surprised about the "Torpedo Tube", though, and was ready to write it up as a deficiency until I showed him this web site and the fact that it was designed/manufactured that way.
 
Thank you Mark, I did notice that all of the posts I've read were on morgan38.org and when I went to join I believe I was re-directed here.
 
Troy & Rikke,

Welcome to the M38 group. Hopefully all goes well with your purchase and we can soon congratulate you as new owners! Are you first time boat owners or are you familiar with boat ownership?

After our beloved 1966 Morgan 34 was dismasted of the South Carolina coast due to a mechanical failure in the standing rigging. My wife & I purchased Pilgrim, a 1979 M382, in November 2013. We had the boat transported overland from Lake Erie to Beaufort, NC, and began a full refit of the vessel in Feb 2014.

We have documented our discoveries, projects, and progress on our website - M382Pilgrim@blogspot.com I am aware of some of the significant design changes as the M382 evolved into the M383 and 384; but I cannot speak to the overall construction techniques and quality of the 384 relative to our 382.

Here are some observations from our Survey to our current knowledge of the 382...
  1. Attend the survey. Due to work obligation and travel costs we did not attend the survey. Our surveyor missed / overlooked some fairly significant hull damage during the survey. I feel that if we had been present at the survey that we would have question the surveyor & owner about an obvious and faulty hull repair. This damage was the fault or the owner or more likely a yard placing too much pressure on a single jackstand. The repair was not completed properly and this lead to water intrusion and delamination. I cite this not as a Morgan Yachts issue, but as a illustration of why you all should attend the survey.
  2. Check seals between the bilge and black water tank. The black water holding tank is integral in the lower keel. Many M38X vessels have had issues with black water leaking into the bilge or more likely bilge water seeping into the holding tank. Prior to the survey confirm with the owner that the black water tank is empty or at least not full. The surveyor should visually & tactfully (feel) inspect the seal / fiberglass tabbing between the horizontal floor of the bilge and the vertical sides of the hull. The surveyor should visually & tactfully inspect the seals around the hoses / pvc that run in to / out of the tank. Once the visual inspection is complete I suggest you fill the bilge with fresh water to a depth of about 6". Mark the level of the water with a piece of duct tape then walk away and conduct the rest of the survey. At the conclusion of the survey go back to the bilge and confirm the level of the fresh water in the bilge has not decreased. This will also set you up for a test of the bilge pump(s). There are other methods of testing the tank. Discussions on this topic can be found in the forums on this site.
  3. Check both the exterior port and starboard hull between the bulkhead even with mast to the bulkhead at the forward end of the head for spider cracks or blisters. Spider cracks and blisters in this area are likely indications of point stress on the hull from a poorly supported head pan and/or intermittent tabbing along the bulkheads. Morgan Yachts did a poor job of supporting the head pan on the early 382s. I believe this issue was remedied by the 1980s models. On Pilgrim both the poorly supported head pan and intermittent / insufficient tabbing lead to some minor hull delamination & blisters on both port and starboard sides in this area.
  4. Check for a gap or signs of the sole and/or mast bucket sinking. Again, not sure if this is an issue addressed in later M38x builds, but some M38x have had issues with a insufficiently supported mast bucket. Fortunately we did not have this issue on Pilgrim. It presents as a gap between the sole and the bulkhead at mast, a gap under head threshold, an ill fitting head door, and/or uneven butt joints in the cabin sole in the vicinity of the mast step.
  5. Leaking Cap Rails / Hull deck joint. We discovered leaks in the starboard pilot berth, behind electrical panel, and in quarterberth. These were all due to a failed seam (hidden behind the SS rub rail) in the cap rail. Water was running inside the cap rail along the hull deck joint until it found a way into the boat. Any leak is annoying and leaks in this area can lead to some significant damage if the cap rail rots or water finds a way into the cored portion of the hull.
  6. Battery acid spill in locker under quarterberth or where ever batteries are stored. Heard a few owners complain about dealing with this issue. We had this issue on Pilgrim and it did not appear in survey. Comes from previous owners installing lead acid batteries w/out a plastic battery box.
  7. Engine Model? Not sure if the 30HP Yanmar was even an option on the M384s. The only issue with the Yanmar 30hp is that spare/replacement parts are becoming more and more rare. I would avoid the 30HP Yanmar or plan for a repower.

Ok for now, I may think of more. No vessel is without faults. I do believe for the time in which the M38x were build, 1977 - 1984, and for the price point they were a good value. If the vessel has been properly maintained or properly refit, then it can represent a great value on a versatile, safe, and good looking vessel in today's market.

Jeff
 
Thank you Jeff,

We are soon to be first time sailboat owners who moved to FL from Breckenridge, CO. We decided it was time to trade the skis, snowboards & snowshoes for sun, surf and sailing!

I will print this out and keep these things in mind. We have scheduled survey for this Monday (4/20/15) and are in the process of wiring the earnest money this AM (yikes)

As for Item 7. I do know that is has a re-built perkins 4.108 installed in 2013 with less and 200hrs.

Thanks again,
Troy
 
Although this comment is for 382 (not 384), I believe 384 is similar in this respect.

The surveyor who performed the pre-purchase inspection of my 1979 382 cited in the report that there was no main breaker for the AC electrical system and, although you will probably want to replace/upgrade this 30-plus-year-old piece of hardware, it does exist very near the shore power inlet connector (on the inside of the coaming). My surveyor did not look in this location.

If possible, try to find a surveyor with some Morgan 38x experience.
 
Troy , Welcome to Florida sailing ! What part of Florida , are you moving to ???? Lee/ Tarpon Springs , Fl
 
We are renting an RV site on S. Hutchinson Island in Jensen Beach where we attended Chapman's School of Seamanship in Stuart. Currently looking for a marina on the ICW that's inexpensive and close to an inlet so we don't have to motor too far for day sails. Any recommendations?
 
Check that rudder Packing. Use Gortex packing..Might as well do the shaft at the same time. The emptying of the holding tank Is marginal at best .I re plumbed mine to masse rate and pump over added a new thru hull in the small locker frw of the nav station. Welcome to 384's they sail like a dream.. she will teach you ..Fairwinds Lee Nicholas 384 Windrose
 
Troy,
I have owned a 384 since 1998, and live on the ICW in central Vero Beach. You are welcomed to come up, and I will fill you in, and show you things to address during your purchase process. Some of Jeff's concerns were fixed by the time the 384 came out. Construction is basically the same in quality, but design improvements were made.

On the 384, the mast bucket was cut out. Per Pete Brown, the hull had several hundred pounds of extra layup added under the mast which was then step directly on the re-enforce area. Settling is less of a problem. M-384 came with the Perkins 4-108. Items 2, 5, and 6 should be checked if possible. I am available during the day if you want to come up before the survey.

John
 
Find out from the previous owner, while you can, what he/she has done to maintain and improve the vessel. If they've kept careful and accurate records, that's a good thing. If they're honest, you'll want to know what problems they've had that can linger - like hull blisters, lightning strikes, collisions, etc. All the bad news can be a useful tool for negotiating the purchase price south.

Jeff is correct about attending the survey - you have a more vested interest than the surveyor.

Also, force yourself to look past the "pretty" aspect of the boat, and focus on the boring, mundane, and plebian stuff that you'll need to depend on - like condition of rigging, oil analysis of engine, plumbing, through-hulls, hoses, clamps, running rigging, safety lines, etc. There's a lot to learn, but also realize that you have a bevy of "experts" on this board who can answer just about any question (aside from which is better - cabin-top mainsheeting, or cockpit mainsheeting!)

Matt
 
ON a 384 the cap rail is two pieces a one inch square teak mounted under the cap rail attached to the hull. This piece is not sealed to the hull or the cap rail above just screwed in every foot or so .
So water gets in here and ROTS THE TEAK . This seam is covered by a SS strake running both sides of the hull.
Mine was so bad i replaced it all, and west epoxy sealed all the new wood . I used IPE instead of teak cause water proof and cost . 6k my wife and i worked off 50% by helping drill cut epoxy etc.. So my end cost was 3K !
 
John,

Thank you! I am available Friday afternoon and all day Sat/Sun. Our survey is Monday at 9AM. We would love to come up and talk to you and see your boat and get any advice you would care to share. I can be reached at

Troy
 
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She looks just Like WindRose right down to the paint ! You can tell from the pictures somebody loved her. ! She will serve you well..
 

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Hi Troy - When you look at the number of big things that can be hosed on old boats, that seems like good news, really ;-) Here is a drawing that I've found. I think it's for the 382 Rudder and the 384 has a little bigger rudder. It's useful for understanding how things fit together, though.

There are lots of posts on here about rudders, gudgeons, etc.

RudderDrawing.jpg

Having the current owner do the repairs at some reputable shop seems like a good idea to me.

So, it's all the play is where the rudder post passes thru the gudgeon?
 
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mpearson said:
So, it's all the play is where the rudder post passes thru the gudgeon?
Click to expand...
Yes, but there is also water leaking in the packing at the top of the rudder post by the quadrant. The surveyor thought that was probably due to the play down at the gudgeon.
 
It's pretty easy to replace the packing at the top of the rudder post. Especially if you have a friend who is a midget contortionist & can fit in the locker where the quadrant is ;-)

All that play where the rudder post passes thru the gudgeon seems like it could be a bigger deal. Like I wonder if it's broken free of the metal plate in the rudder. Seems to me that a good shop could rehab the rudder (for the current owner) if need be.
 
Well, we were in the circus.......

All the more reason for the current owners to effect the repair instead of a price reduction.

Will post more tomorrow after we receive the inspection report from the surveyor.
 
What are the chances of getting the specks and having a spacer made? SS , monel or some sort of Nylon?
That top of the rudder post leak , we all have had. Just needs to pull the old packing out and the new Gortex put back in.
That gudgeon is a two part fitting , the two halves clamp around the rudder shaft holding it in place.
 
Here is a picture of my gudgeon.
 

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Rolf,

Is your gudgeon out of the boat? Could you provide dimensions or even a drawing?

I know a company that can make a mold and reproduce them. They they make high quality bronze parts for classic boats such as Herresoff, and would need a good gudgeon as a pattern. Having these available would be a big benefit to owners of M-38's as this wearable part is not available. I would think there are many with wore gudgeons. I am one of them. This could be done over the winter if someone with a dry dock boated could provide one.

If you or any a other member could help out, please let me know.

John Noble
 
Thank you for the pictures of the gudgeons everyone. I have spoken with a machinist who thinks he can reproduce it with maybe a few improvements such as alignment dowels and spacing for a bushing. If we get the boat he is going to evaluate it when we have it removed and proceed from there. I have also spoken to him about making a casting for others who are in need of this part.
 
Troy, further to our email conversation re: Gorma - The rudder issue you describe is news to me and somewhat puzzling - I find it hard to envision play of 1-2 inches at the gudgeon attachment as this would seem to suggest the gudgeon is worn right through where the rudder passes through. That being said I think a machine shop equipped with a CNC milling machine should be able to make up new gudgeon halves from bronze billets. This would make for a very strong piece and eliminate the hassle of a casting company having to make a mold and the possibility of having voids in the cast piece. If there is a casting company that does
one-offs regularly maybe my concerns are unfounded. If you find any problem with the rudder on the other hand, new ones are available from Foss Foam in Florida for around 2K. Best of luck as you proceed.
 
Hi all - we kind of hijacked Troy's thread about his Survey ... so I'm testing out this forum software by 'Copying' the later posts into a new thread called 'Gudgeon - Possible Replacement of'. I think in the future if someone did a search for 'Gudgeon' they would be less likely to go into a thread titled 'Just put a 384 (gorma) under contract. Anything particular a surveyor should look for?'. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know.

So if you want to make a post about Troy's situation do it here, but if you are posting about Gudgeons in general, please do it on that new Thread.
Thanks
 
mpearson said:
Hi all - we kind of hijacked Troy's thread about his Survey ... so I'm testing out this forum software by 'Copying' the later posts into a new thread called 'Gudgeon - Possible Replacement of'. I think in the future if someone did a search for 'Gudgeon' they would be less likely to go into a thread titled 'Just put a 384 (gorma) under contract. Anything particular a surveyor should look for?'. If anyone has a problem with this, let me know.

So if you want to make a post about Troy's situation do it here, but if you are posting about Gudgeons in general, please do it on that new Thread.
Thanks
Click to expand...
 
I will be inspecting for purchase a 1984 Morgan 384 this Sunday. Your forum and this survey discussion are very helpful! Thanks to all!
Greg J.
 
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