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Ice box isulation
- Thread starter dgh462
- Start date
I too have seen this and wondered. What I've heard is to install any insulation on the inside of the box, but that takes quite a bit of space. So, has anyone done the "drill the holes and foam fill around the box?" Does anyone know if it's worth it?
To be honest, my Grunert Baysider II does really well as is and costs me about 60-75 amp/hrs a day (24hr). Mind you that's not using the water cooling pump and just the air cooling fan.
Comments? suggestions? I'm all ears for your wealth of experience.
To be honest, my Grunert Baysider II does really well as is and costs me about 60-75 amp/hrs a day (24hr). Mind you that's not using the water cooling pump and just the air cooling fan.
Comments? suggestions? I'm all ears for your wealth of experience.
I removed a shelf in my ice box which had been screwed into place and then probed into the hole with a wire. There was what appeared to be a low density foam sprayed in the interstitial space. I have spoke with another owner of a 384's and he told me that the interstitial space in his box was empty. I assume that Morgan believed that they could create a "dead air" zone without foam at one time. I am not going to alter or augment the insulation in my ice box until it proves to be insufficient.
I think the ice box design is far and away the thing I like least about my boat. It's right next to the engine compartment and doesn't seem sufficiently insulated. I installed an Adler Barbour Cold Machine and put the compressor in the port cockpit locker. Wrong on both counts. The Cold Machine (without water pump) runs about 75% of the time. It draws down the batteries, so I have to run the engine to recharge. The engine heats up, so the frige has to work harder. I installed a 150 amp alternator to cut down charging time, but when anchored out for a few days I still need to run the engine well over an hour morning and evening to keep the batteries up.
I recently added an inch of rigid foam to the interior of the box. I really haven't had a chance to see what improvement this brings.
Next time it's an engine-driven cold plate.
I recently added an inch of rigid foam to the interior of the box. I really haven't had a chance to see what improvement this brings.
Next time it's an engine-driven cold plate.
<div>Jay,This is off the subject, but I couldn't find your e-mail address any where. In the second archived board you had mentioned writing a newsletter covering port light replacement. I need to do this job myself now and I was wondering if you ever published the article? Thanks.Eric
"SPARROW"
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"SPARROW"
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<div>Don, We have had our 382 since 1984, and it had the A/B large vertical Cold Machine installed when we bought it. I have found that, after the unit chills down and has completed it's first set of ice trays, I test it for run time vs. down time. As soon as the downtime becomes less than the run time, I add freon. I've found that after 15 years of use, I've had to add gas twice.
I don't have the water cooled model and my cooling air is from a port sail locker mounted fan (like yours). Perhaps our insulation is, by chance, better. I installed four 6 volt golf cart batteries in around 1990 for an extended cruise and, while I thought they were expensive, they proved to be much more effective and far less expensive than my previous 12 volts. I finally had to replace them last year after 8 seasons. During that time, I inadvertently left the unit run while we left the boat on a mooring in Nantucket for 7 days. When we returned, the unit was running and the ice was still frozen!
I'd suggest a larger battery bank, and a freon recharge! Good luck! Mick MacMullan
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I don't have the water cooled model and my cooling air is from a port sail locker mounted fan (like yours). Perhaps our insulation is, by chance, better. I installed four 6 volt golf cart batteries in around 1990 for an extended cruise and, while I thought they were expensive, they proved to be much more effective and far less expensive than my previous 12 volts. I finally had to replace them last year after 8 seasons. During that time, I inadvertently left the unit run while we left the boat on a mooring in Nantucket for 7 days. When we returned, the unit was running and the ice was still frozen!
I'd suggest a larger battery bank, and a freon recharge! Good luck! Mick MacMullan
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OK, So I guess that no one has actually removed the counter top from over the ice box, thereby exposing the insulation or lack of it, for the purposes of adding additional insulation. I believe there is either no or very little insulation. I have seen ads from insulation mfgrs which is on the principle of a thermos bottle and installation of this insulation panel is inside the box vs. between the box liner and the bulkheads. I'm sure you guys have seen the ad. My opinion on the ice box insulation apparently is the same as all other owners, it's poor at best. My thoughts are to remove the box liner and install this new type insulation $$$, then replace the liner. I'm sure it's going to be quite an undertaking. At this stage, it's only in the "thought" process.
Thanks for all the input guys.
Fred
Thanks for all the input guys.
Fred
I don't understand the fuss. Unless it is the climate you sail in. We sail Long Island Sound to Maine. 150lbs of ice is good for more than 7 days during July and August. I have A.B. refridgeration and use it only when we are powering. I don't find a short falling, but again I wonder if there is a temperture difference in the area that you sail? I never considered using only the A.B. because we keep the boat on a mooring. Not being plugged in, it would take to long to cool the box down without ice. Does any body sailing off a mooring use refridgeration only? How long does it take to cool? Does it get realy COLD, my ice box does?
Larry
Larry
No I didn't. I got sidetracked on an on article where I interviewed Pete Brown on the construction of the 38xs. I'm having trouble getting it finished. I have replaced the portlights and can advise you on the subject if you will e mail me. It wasn't a difficult job if you are handy with tools. jdgreen@deq.state.va.us
<div>Larry,
If you put 150lb of ice in your box do you have any room left for food? :^)
I run a watercooled DC frig which runs about 50% of the time, at best. If I want to keep the box below 40 degrees it runs about 75% of the time. Down here on the lower Chesapeake temps can become rather warm. I'd like it if the frig only ran 25% of the time. I'd hate to think of how long the frig would run in the tropics, probably 100% of the time.
Fredd
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If you put 150lb of ice in your box do you have any room left for food? :^)
I run a watercooled DC frig which runs about 50% of the time, at best. If I want to keep the box below 40 degrees it runs about 75% of the time. Down here on the lower Chesapeake temps can become rather warm. I'd like it if the frig only ran 25% of the time. I'd hate to think of how long the frig would run in the tropics, probably 100% of the time.
Fredd
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See the stuff in Good Old Boat about "super insulation." Depends on whether it is dealing with radiant heat or ambient (?) heat. Dealing with radiant heat won't help. the only real super insulation uses vacuum technology, and I don't even know about that. I can't remember which of the firms sells that stuff.
I think the box is underinsulated, just on principle. I have an engine driven cold plate, however, so seem to do okay, although now the unit needs tuning of some sort and it is beyond me. If I ever have time and money, I think I will add some insulation. More always helps. Doing it on the inside is easiest, I guess, even if it lessens space. The box is awfully big, really, so a little loss wouldn't hurt, I think.
I think the box is underinsulated, just on principle. I have an engine driven cold plate, however, so seem to do okay, although now the unit needs tuning of some sort and it is beyond me. If I ever have time and money, I think I will add some insulation. More always helps. Doing it on the inside is easiest, I guess, even if it lessens space. The box is awfully big, really, so a little loss wouldn't hurt, I think.
Fred,
We have plenty of room for food. In 12 years I have been at a slip 3 times while cruising. My wife and I like out of the way places, and we avoid crowds (the quiet life). That means we don't get to go out to eat. We carry enough food in the ice box (we don't eat from cans, we like fresh food) to hang on a hook for at least 5 days or more. I have heard from friends that the Chesapeake is very hot during July and August. It is not cold here but I woould say the average days are 82 to 96, and the evenings 65 to 75. We do get at least one hot spell every summer (4 to 6 days) that might hit 100 or so. In the New England area there is usually a gentle cool breeze in the evening. The difference of how well we hold ice might be the difference of our locations.
We have plenty of room for food. In 12 years I have been at a slip 3 times while cruising. My wife and I like out of the way places, and we avoid crowds (the quiet life). That means we don't get to go out to eat. We carry enough food in the ice box (we don't eat from cans, we like fresh food) to hang on a hook for at least 5 days or more. I have heard from friends that the Chesapeake is very hot during July and August. It is not cold here but I woould say the average days are 82 to 96, and the evenings 65 to 75. We do get at least one hot spell every summer (4 to 6 days) that might hit 100 or so. In the New England area there is usually a gentle cool breeze in the evening. The difference of how well we hold ice might be the difference of our locations.
<div>Don,
The control board is the "circuit board" which controls the on-off cycle and reads the signals from the thermocouple in the refrigeration unit itself. It cycles the compressor and cooling fan on and off. I had mine replaced a number of years ago when I had it recharged. Apparently, Adler Barbour suggested this in the late 80's or early 90's as their original boards were starting to develope difficultlies! It's a small unit on the compressor/fan unit that is attached with a couple of screws and plugs into a couple of the wires on the control harness coming from the box itself. Hope this answers your questions. Mick
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The control board is the "circuit board" which controls the on-off cycle and reads the signals from the thermocouple in the refrigeration unit itself. It cycles the compressor and cooling fan on and off. I had mine replaced a number of years ago when I had it recharged. Apparently, Adler Barbour suggested this in the late 80's or early 90's as their original boards were starting to develope difficultlies! It's a small unit on the compressor/fan unit that is attached with a couple of screws and plugs into a couple of the wires on the control harness coming from the box itself. Hope this answers your questions. Mick
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eric_m_marshall
Eric M. Marshall
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I don't have a Morgan, but have tackled this problem in So. Cal. Instead of tearing the galley apart, I drilled holes in the ice box liner and injected foam into the voids. The foam comes in cans from Home Depot or other such hardware stores and is used to insulate around electrical outlets, etc. in houses. After the foam sets up you can then tap around the box and listen for thuding to find any residual voids. Then seal the holes with silicon. This alone greatly improved our refridgeration.Later I got some 1" polyethylene sheet closed cell foam from McMaster-Carr, an industrial supply house in Santa Fe Springs, CA (LA County). This won't degrade if it gets wet and has pretty insulating properties. They also have PVC sheeting that can be cut to shape. These were bonded to the inside of the ice box with 5200 and the PVC sheeting sealed around the edges with silicon. Now, even on the warmest days (low 90's: water temp 70) our refridge only runs about 30%.The glacier Bay insulation you talk about is good, but very expensive. This entire job cost me </div>
I don't have a Morgan, but have tackled this problem in So. Cal. Instead of tearing the galley apart, I drilled holes in the ice box liner and injected foam into the voids. The foam comes in cans from Home Depot or other such hardware stores and is used to insulate around electrical outlets, etc. in houses. After the foam sets up you can then tap around the box and listen for thuding to find any residual voids. Then seal the holes with silicon. This alone greatly improved our refridgeration.Later I got some 1" polyethylene sheet closed cell foam from McMaster-Carr, an industrial supply house in Santa Fe Springs, CA (LA County). This won't degrade if it gets wet and has pretty insulating properties. They also have PVC sheeting that can be cut to shape. These were bonded to the inside of the ice box with 5200 and the PVC sheeting sealed around the edges with silicon. Now, even on the warmest days (low 90's: water temp 70) our refridge only runs about 30%.The glacier Bay insulation you talk about is good, but very expensive. This entire job cost me </div>
<div>I did the same thing Dave did. We had 2" of original Ureathan foam glued to the outside of the box. There was more space under, behind and ahead of the box but no way to get at it. Drilled a bunch of 3/8" holes on 6" centers and let fly with the foam in a can. Take it slow. Start from the bottom and work your way up slowly. When the foam reaches the adjacent holes stop and let it set. It took about 12 cans at around $6 each. Our AB Cold Machine (Air cooled) used to consume 70 ah / day in summer as measured by our Link 10. It's now down to about 35-40 ah / day. When cruising with 2 teenagers we can go 2.5 days between charging our 200 AH house bank and still keep a minimum 40% charge. The box temperature stays more uniform too. We filled the holes with tapered wooden (maple) plugs from Home Depot. One other thing to check is to make sure the drain hose has an "S" bend with some water in it otherwise cold air will continuously drain out. It's not a small loss.Nick
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<div>I have a question for Don Reilly re: the 150 amp alternator. Your engine run time seem excessive. The AB pulls 5 amps with equates to 120 ah/day maximum. How big is your battery bank and what kind of regulator do you have? You need at least 400 ah of battery capacity to take advantage of the big alternator. That would be 6 golf cart batteries of equivalent. We put a 3-step regulator on our 90 amp alternator last year. If our 200 ah bank is down 50% (measured by Link 10) and we start the engine we get the full 90 amps for about 45 minutes. Then the voltage rises and the amps back down. When cruising and heavy using we draw the batteries down to 40-50% remaining then run the engine until the amps drop below 50. That usually brings them back to above 90%. Once every few cycles it's a good idea to bring the batteries up to full charge but that usually coincides with a lengthy stretch of motoring.Lots of books have been written about batteries and charging. I've read a few and it's a complicated process.Nick
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you guys have no idea about heat. in key west the water temp in the summer is about 90. we have an ab unit that works great but uses too much amps in my opinion due to the poor to none existant insulation of the frig. i have no choice but to reinsulate my frig as it is totally ineffective. has anyone taken there frig out to do this or is there another simpler way. in answering keep in mind that i live aboard here in the margarritiville.
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