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Holding Tank Quandry

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mel

Melinda Carver
I need your collective wisdom with a question re holding tank on 1980 382.....

I don't think the holding tank on Celerity was ever plumbed. Here's why: no hoses or fittings (that I can see) down to or on the top of the holding tank (bottom of bilge). The pumpout deck plate is there but no hose seen (I can see the bottom of deckplate behind the breaker panel but no hose). No evidence there was ever a vent opening on transom on starboard side (only one is present, presumably for starboard water tank; 2 are on port, one for port water tank and other for diesel tank).

One thing that is puzzling is there does seem to be some 1-1/2" PVC tubing (not connected) running from head through main salon bulkhead, presumably behind the port settee, under the galley sink and then it disappears....I can't find it exiting from the cabinet. The head is not connected to the PVC; head is connected to a y-valve to go directly overboard or to LectraSan and then overboard.

Would you all agree with my conclusion? If you agree, how would you go about plumbing it? Would you? What concerns would there be? Should I be concerned that the "space" in the keel for the holding tank is not "empty"? Would you have a yard drill into top of bilge where holding tank should be? I would also be concerned about issues involving leaking of its contents (once plumbed and in use) into bilge as some on list have mentioned. I guess I could have yard reglass the area where bilge bottom turns up...

I have a Lectra-San which keeps me legal outside of no discharge zones (I'm in NC) but I will be needing a holding tank for no-dischrge zones. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated. I may try calling Morgan/Catalina to find out if they can tell me from old records if it was plumbed at factory....

I would appreciate pics of plumbing for holding tank area from anyone with a 1980 382 so I can see what installation should look like.

Thanks for any input.

Melinda
 
I bet either it was never plumbed or when the LectraSan was added, the other piping was removed. I have a plumbing plan if you need it. I believe I posted it awhile back.
 
Jim,

Thanks for info. I have the same diagram but what I am hoping for are photos of the actual installation so I can see (and show yard manager) exactly where the plumbing enters and exits the bottom of bilge.....

Also, I installed the Lectra San..previous owners had boat in FL and had installed a 3 gallon holding tank under head sink. I uninstalled that tank and replaced it with the Lectra San. The little holding tank was still pristine when I bought the boat...guess it made them legal per letter of law. Surprisingly, they had boat for ~7 years and didn't know original design showed holding tank in keel.
 
If the bottom of the bilge is virgin, then placement should be forward at the widest and most accessible area. A macerator in the pumpout/overboard line, with a momentary switch, is an option also.
 
Melinda: Sounds for sure yours was not plumbed or somehow it was removed. (If it was plumbed, you would probably see the "warning light--holding tank 3/4 full" in the head. But if it was removed, one would see teh remains of fittings on top of the tank, it seems to me. I have the pvc pipe--which then joins a hose under the sink and dives into the bilge and goes into the tank. Another hose comes out for the discharge on the starboard side of the boat; a small vent line also, which exits the stern by the fuel vent. plus the "holding tank 3/4 full meter," which has never worked in 11 years. All this piping is below the first bilge access--the long one--and therefore aft of the dust pan access. You can pound on the outside hull to see if it is empty--it will sound hollow. The real problem, it seems to me, is getting into the deep bilge to drill and install fittings. there isn't much room to work. I have worried about what I would do if things break. My tank leaks when full and pressured--along the walls of the bilge, but I never have it completely full now and someday I will reglass along there or have it done properly. I have a Lectra San--I treat the sewage, then discharge into the tank, then, when I am in a fairway, I pump it overboard. (I added a Y Valve and a discharge seacock in the locker just in front of the nav station.)
 
Terry,

Thanks for info...have a couple of questions for you (and/or anyone)....

I thought the holding tank vent line exit was on starboard side of transom (along with vent for starboard water tank).....and that the vent lines for the fuel tank and port water tank were on port....true? You indicated otherwise....or maybe differences between boats?

Where is your "warning light" mounted in the head? And is there a breaker on the main panel labeled as such?

Where does the pvc pipe/hose connection exit from under the galley sink cabinet? Under the floor directly beneath the drawer or aft of the drawer????

Is there a y-valve in the head: directly overboard or to holding tank?

Could you please send me pics of the hose/pipes into/out of bilge area (carverf@ecu.edu)? It would be a huge help in planning with yard manager. I have this vision of them drilling in the wrong place and finding nothing but lead......

One more question...do you (or anyone) know how thick is the bilge floor/ top of hold tank? How deep would they have to drill before finding a presumably "empty" space.

Thanks...i really appreciate any help you or anyone can give me as I start to plan this undertaking. Needless to say, I am nervous about having yard drill "blindly" into bilge area.......

Thanks everyone!
Melinda
 
Melinda,

Do you have 2 short sections of pvc pipe, ~ 1 1/4 in. stubbed out from the bottom of the bilge (top of holding tank). These would be just aft of a partial baffle which is open at bottom. These pipes are visible from the aft bilge access (long one). Forward under the dust pan and on the bilge floor is a polybutylene Qest type fitting for the vent, and a 1 1/4 in. threaded, female pvc fitting with a male plug for a level indicator. These all can be seen on Jim's drawing.

The level light is next to the shower drain pump switch in the head. My boat has vents as you described except only fuel to port. I have no port water tank, but one starboard and another forward under the v-berth. The original "y" valve was probably a gate valve and "T" going into the long 1 1/4 in. pvc pipe under the settee

If you want to call me perhaps when on the boat, I can give a better description.

John Noble
772-567-228
 
John,

There are no pipes or stubs sticking out from the bottom of bilge and no Qest type fitting. As best as I can tell, there are no patches on bottom of bilge as would be expected if they had been removed.

Also, there is no level light in head or any evidence that it was removed and hole patched. FYI, Celerity did not have a shower drain pump...shower water drained directly into bilge. I cut the hose and installed an overboard pump/thru hull to deal with it (used a hole in the hull that was available when I installed a new depth sounder forward).

More compelling evidence that the holding tank was never plumbed.....

I'll try to give you a call tonight or tomorrow night.

Thanks for your help!
 
Melinda,
What year is the boat? There were some 38's left when Morgan went out of business and were sold as buyer finish. I believe they were in different stages of completion, even some bare hulls.
 
Melinda: I will try to take some pictures of the holding tank arrangement, but my kids will have to help me send them to you. I am computer stupid.

You are correct and I was wrong. The holding tank discharge is on the starboard side of the boat, by the starboard water tank overflow. (Some day I am going to eliminate that tank overflow and have it just go into the bilge so I don't get salt water into the tanks.)

Let me explain that I have completely replumbed the head. So, I have lots of pipes under the sink and below the hamper trap door. the Lectra San sits behind the toilet, on a shelf I built below the drug cabinet, then is enclosed with teak cabinetry.

The discharge from the toilet goes first to a big y-valve, which splits either to the holding tank or to the Lectra San. The Lectra San discharge then goes to a Y-valve that splits that flow either to overboard discharge or to the holding tank. Both lines to the holding tank connect to the PVC pipe that runs under the port settee in the main cabin.

Then, the holding tank pipe dives into the bilge. From the bilge, a big hose comes up throught the locker just forward of the chart table. That used to go just to the deck pump out. Now, I have another big Y valve on that hose, inside the locker. It splits to go to the deck pump out or into a hand pump, which can discharge overboard through a large through hull I installed in the same locker. That through hull is closed at all time except when I am pumping out.
 
Terry (and all),

Pictures would be greatly appreciated and would help enormously in planning!!! More the merrier of any and all facets of installation. Please send to carverf@ecu.edu. Needless to say, I'll be nervous when the yard drills that first hole....

And your info is invaluable with lots of good ideas of how I want to do this...including the idea of a macerator, y-valve and thru hull in the locker in front of nav station. Does anyone have similar installation (macerator/y-valve) but elsewhere on boat? Keep ideas coming.

Any recommendations or don't buy re brand of macerator?

Another important question I haven't seen an answer for: does anyone know how thick is the floor of the bilge/top of holding tank? How far would you have to drill before encountering the "empty" holding tank space?

To answer Jim's question: Celerity is a late 1979 (documentation says 1980) 382 so most likely factory finished.

FYI, I installed my Lectra San in cabinet under head sink. Had to cut much larger opening and lose the teak door....made a small curtain on a rod. Covered a small piece of wood with same fabric and velcroed wood piece to cabinet face. Then velcroed the rod/curtain to it to cover opening. One benefit: Makes access into the area much easier...no door in way.

I expect I'll have more questions later...thanks to everyone for all of your input! This group is an incredible resource......

Kudos to all of you,
Melinda
Celerity, 1980 Morgan 382
 
Melinda -

Any chance you could ask the original owner what happened? I can't believe Morgan would complete a boat without a holding tank, but perhaps the original owner asked for it, or perhaps the owner later removed the existing set-up and had a yard seal up the holding tank and remove all hoses, possibly b/c of a crack in the tank that led to unpleasant odors aboard.

I just completed a re-plumbing on the head, using a Lavac toilet. The PVC under the settee had to be replaced with hose, as it had a crack in it.
 
Hi Melinda,
Here are two photos. The labeled one is the aft of the two compartments that provide access to the bilge. The one without labels shows the small grey PVC pipe that is the tank vent. The white PVC plug is where the tank sensor goes. I used one from Sailor's Solutions (http://www.sailorssolutions.com/index.asp?page=ProductDetails&Item=TM04) and
http://www.sailorssolutions.com/index.asp?page=ProductDetails&Item=TM01 They will make the probe part with a longer wire if you request it.
Hope this helps. Let me know if you need any other photos and what angles might be useful. I don't know the thickness of the bilge floor because the PVC fitting makes it difficult to tell but I'd guess it's no more than .5 inches thick on average.
Ken (Mary T)
16578.jpg

Aft Bilge compartment

16579.jpg

Forward Bilge compartmnet
 
Melinda,

I wonder if the holding tank was sealed by someone for a reason. This tank is susceptible to sea water intrusion! The keel, especially the aft portion, is very thin and the hull is two halves joined together and any penetrating FG cracks on the aft edge would result in sea water entering the tank. I would recommend caution when drilling into the bilge floor; perhaps a small pilot inspection hole. I only say this because we can't believe a 38 was built without this plumbing. Another thought, maybe your boat was ordered from the factory with a greater lead ballast and this area is part of the keel.

Good Luck!
 
Matt, Jim and All,

I too have the same (and more) concerns (agonizing) about why no plumbing (or remnants) for the holding tank in the bilge, deck pumpout, or vent.....and have had serious procrastination about tackling this very thorny problem. However, soon I will have to have a holding tank since next year I will be taking boat to no-discharge areas and the Lectra san won't suffice....

After I learned that the vent hose would be connected to a fitting on starboard transom, and discovered no trace of one, inside or out, I am almost convinced that it was never plumbed....question is why.

There have been ~5 owners of the boat so unlikely I would be able to trace any but the owner I bought her from (but I may have to try if Morganlina is no help). That owner is zero help despite owning the boat for ~6 years...didn't even know the boat was designed with holding tank in keel and he kept the boat in FL (had 3 gall holding tank under head sink which I removed...never used but made boat legal).

I will call Morganlina to see if they can help me via hull ID #: was it plumbed at factory? If no, hopefully they can answer question re extra ballast in the space. If yes, then I'll be in a real quandry!!!!

Also, regarding the suggestion that maybe water has entered through a crack and filled holding tank....can you tell by sounding on outside if the tank is empty or has liquid or lead in it?

Thanks again for all of your terrific input and wisdom!!!
 
Melinda,
If your boat still has the markings for where the slings are supposed to go (mine are just below the guard railing along the toe rail) then the aft mark is where the keel ends and the holding tank begins. If you don't have those marks, then you should be able to hear the difference between lead and holding tank by knocking on the aft part of the keel with a wooden mallet or whatever. Where it sounds hollow, that should be where the holding tank is. I would think that a good hydrometer like the kind surveyors use, would be able tell you if the holding tank was full of water. I'm not sure since I've never used one.

Ken (Mary T)
 
I believe the sling marks are stamped into the hull. Sounding should be evident. I do know that the area is "thin"! While crossing a bar in Mexico, I hit and it resulted in cracks on the aft section of the keel/hull interface. When it was repaired, I found a crack running down the aft edge of the keel/holding tank and along the joint between the halves of hull. I was never sure if there was sea water intrusion into the tank(I never looked or tasted). I would seriously consider placing the holding tank somewhere else. It may be cheaper and less risk. The stock holding tank isn't very large anyway. It is a tough decision. Keep us posted!
 
Jim: The story of cracking the hull is not reassuring, you know. On would hope you could bounce a boat off the bottom pretty hard without cracking anything. They should be strong down below the water line. The sides of the keel in way of the holding tank do sound thin when you pound on it, I admit. Where did it crack? How thick was the laminate?
 
If you think about the design of the hull, encapsulated lead with a void(holding tank)aft of the lead; what is the weak point if you ground the boat on the forward lower keel? Any impact will drive the aft upper portion of the keel upward. The stress/damage is dependent on the degree of impact. I believe serious damage can happen to any boat in the same area if you strike anything hard low and forward. My damage was not serious in my estimation, but it still needed to be addressed. I would think that since this area is where the two halves of the hull are glassed together, it is very strong. You can see this area when you raise the sole. I know the next time I cross a bar I will be very nervous and cautious!
 
Ken,

Thanks for the pics! They are incredibly helpful since I've never seen the plumbing "in the flesh".

Could you send pics of each compartment from above the floor, showing the opening into bilge through floorboards so we can see about spacing and also where they enter/exit from under floor?

The plug for the level indicator...do you not have an indicator installed?

The PVC pipe shown in pic...are they both PVC for as much of the length from head and to pumpout as you can see/know about? Or is hose used for part of either/ both runs? Are the PVC pipes 1-1/2" diam?

I did call Morganlina in FL...no help re did the factory plumb the holding tank since almost all their old records were lost in Hurricane Jean when the roof of building was blown off. Boo-hiss. However, I did mention to tech that the boat was made for a charter company (I have complete list of owners from my documentation company) so he said it was highly probable that they did not want holding tank plumbed....would eliminate possibility (probability) of a full/overflowing holding tank.

I'm sure other questions will surface as details of "how and where to" are worked out. If anyone has more suggestions or ideas, send them on! I really appreciate everyone's continued advice and wisdom as I (and the yard) plan to take this project on, either this fall or at latest very early next spring.

I will absolutely keep you all posted!

Thanks bunches,
Melinda
 
Hi Melinda,

The holding tank has been one of the larger projects I completed on my 1980 382 (hull 222) over the past year. Since I purchased her in 1993, I had at times noticed odors from the bilge, but I didn't think about possible leaks between the bilge and holding tank. As others have alluded, the sides of the aft keel tank are thin - perhaps 3/16". I found this out when I was grinding out some blisters when on the hard and I unexpectedly ground right through the keel into the holding tank! I repaired this hole adequately with many layers of glass, but I was concerned that in a very bad reef grounding the floor of the bilge could be keeping the boat afloat. Apparently this happened to an owner in the board archives, and it held up fine. Still, it remained a concern of mine. Secondly, if the yard does not properly block the boat on jackstands (wood blocks under the forward lead part and the stronger very aft keel edge only) then tabbing between the keel/bilge sides and bilge floor can be cracked. My yard did indeed block my boat wrong after some moves around the yard during it's years on the hard in storage. I didn't want to splash her and find out that my holding tank and bilge were connected!
Therefore, I decided to install a holding tank in the head (after seeing a setup on a Jeanneau) and re-plumb it. I used a Todd plastic 13-gallon tank installed where the factory wastebasket was(a tight fit - if I did it again, I'd use a 9 gallon model). This is close to the 15-gallon keel holding tank capacity. It's still vented to the transom. I added multiple Y-valves and an offshore macerator pumpout to the standard deck pumpout option. I used the existing 1 1/2" PVC pipe that routes under the port settee to connect the new tank to the deck pumpout. This is all complete; she is back in the water and all is fine. My final task is to fill in the keel holding tank through either the threaded PVC sensor hole or the original pumpout tube. The material I will use is still TBD; I'm debating 8 lb. structural foam with perhaps a concrete layer.

Anyway, I'm not saying that this is a recommended solution for you; just the one that I undertook. If you would like to see some pictures, I'd be happy take some in a week or so.

Best Regards,

Rick Kehoe
S/V Green Flash
Gulfport FL
 
Rick,

I think what you did is great! I only have a problem with your statement "(wood blocks under the forward lead part and the stronger very aft keel edge only)". I would not recommend the wood block under the aft keel edge. The blocks should be place under the encapsulated lead keel only! The aft edge of the keel is not structurally strong! Damage can result when the boat is set with a block on the aft edge, especially if the crane operator tilts the boat bow up, even slightly with such a block placement. It is very easy to sound where the lead ends and the holding tank begins. The yard boss/crane operator must know there is a holding tank, or large void, in the aft portion of the keel and not assume ballast is in all of the keel. That is one reason for the owner to be present when the boat is hauled or moved in the yard.

Jim
 
Does anyone else sleep less well at night knowing that part of the keel structure of the 382 is only 3/16 inch thick and that setting the boat on its keelcan cause damage? I have never had a boat before that wasn't able to sit on its keel on the hard. I consider this news, after owning the boat for 10 years, appalling. Next time you want to brag on this boat, think about that. If I didn't need the damn holding tank where I cruise, I would surely fill it up and try to find some way to increase the strength of the hull somehow.
 
Well there is no reason to keep the holding tank where it's at. There are other locations. You can always fill the holding tank with lead and resin or resin only. Any owner must weigh the risks involved. I believe the major risk is in the yard where the weight of the boat can be placed incorrectly. That is why I said the owner should be there whenever the boat is set or moved on the hard.
 
Terry, your post is mind boggling. How can you own your boat for 10 years, which is probably at least one tenth of your lifetime, and now hear something on the list that scares you about your own boat? Didn't you already know about the tank? Haven't you had to take care in a yard every time you've hauled her? And if you've known all along, why would you keep a boat that doesn't allow you to sleep at night? Everything I've read on the board up till this thread boasts about this boat and the thousands of miles people have sailed them all over the world. I don't think I've ever heard of one sinking because of a failure of the keel. Your post comes across like this is some kind of death trap.

My suspicion is that the keel forward of this area is of significant strength to support the weight of the boat and that the glass between the portion of the keel with the tank and the bilge is sufficient to prevent any kind of rupture from allowing sea water intrusion. So an uncommon grounding that causes damage to this section would not sink the boat but require repair. I'm no naval architect, but would have to point to the lack of incident and breadth of use to point to the fact that these boats are very safe.
 
Larry, sorry to boggle your mind. I have been sailing for 50 years. I like much about the Morgan, and yes, I know many of its faults and keep her none the less. I have to balance the type of sailing I do, my expectations for the boat, and my limited financial resources.

I know I have to be careful when blocking the boat--but only because the folks on this board were kind enough to warn me. It was surely not something that I or my boat yard would ever have thought of. I think you just shouldn't build boats that cannot sit safely and easily on their own keel. This is especially true if you might be sailing overseas where using an old fashioned drying grid might be your only way to work on the bottom. I have always thought that was a significant design or construction flaw. But, I am not sailing overseas, and so, I keep and sail the boat and it has served me quite well.

Given the thin hull, that reaffirms my view that the fact that the holding tanks leak into the bilge is another significant construction flaw. There was a fellow who ran a Morgan onto a reef off of Sucia Island, in the American San Juans. He credited the holding tank design with saving his boat--because the bottom and the tank were holed badly by the reef, but the water did not enter the boat. Well, he was lucky that the tank didn't leak like most of ours do.

Of course, there are other flaws with the boat that I will not list here. There are also some fine things about the boat. But these boats are far from perfect.

Despite doing lots of upgrades and constant maintenance, I had no idea that the sides of the hull in way of the holding tank were only 3/16 inch. Did you? Have you ever drilled through there? I never have. I think that is much too thin and that may explain what I consider to be the the unreasonable weakness of the boat when she is hauled out. And yes, I may discuss this with a naval architect and/or boat builder to see if there is something I can do to reassure myself or correct the problem.

I know this board is full of people who love the Morgan 38 and who think it is one of the best boats around. As I believe I have written before, it seems as if ownership has destroyed the objectivity of some of the owners. This boat is pretty good, but there are many better, and I think it does not harm any of us to be honest about flaws, including significant ones.
 
Terry,

You may consider this a flaw, but I do not. A good yard should always sound the keel and the hull to determine where to place blocking and supports when any vessel is set on the hard. As far as grounding, even if the holding tank fills with water, as it would with waste, why would it sink the boat. There is a glassed bulkhead between the tank and the bilge.

I stand by the need for the yard to do their job right and sound before placing any blocks. Doing this will prevent unnecessary damage, i.e. gel coat cracking that the yard would be responsible for. The owner of any boat should be present when their boat is hauled or moved I believe. There are many inexperienced yard workers!

I do not believe there is any boat out there that claims to be unsinkable. The Brewer 38's are now reaching 30 years old and may not be as flashy and fast as some new ones, but I believe they are just as good and safe with proper maintenance. I know of many Morgans that have traveled the world without difficulty. Sure, there may be better boats out there, but I bet all of them have "flaws". The Morgan is a good boat as many reviews have stated over the years.

If you decide to obtain the opinion of a surveyor or marine architect, please let us all know the result. It would be interesting to know if any sailboats are intentionally grounded to test hull integrity. Like a vehicle, the result would be based on speed, what it strikes, and where on hull.
 
Hi all,

I didn't mean to start a controversy or raise undue concerns regarding my comments. My estimate of holding tank thickness especially is only a rough guess. Maybe it's 1/4". I have owned Green Flash since 1993 and plan to own her many more years. I have singlehanded the boat over 2000 miles through the Bahamas and Florida with no issues, and of the 500 or so 382/3/4's, a number have circumnavigated. And I do believe that the floor of the bilge is sufficiently strong. When we are talking about leakage into the bilge from improper yard blocking etc, it's small leaks that can result in odors, not sink the boat if the tank is punctured. The chief design Engineer (along with Ted Brewer) of the boat coincidentally lives a few houses away from where I used to rent a slip and I'll try to stop by and ask him for opinions, which I will be happy to post. Jim, you mentioned that the rear of the keel should not be blocked (only the forward lead part), and I'll defer to that; I just recall that I had read that the back edge of the keel is somewhat stronger in the archives. My boat was moved frequently by the yard when I was out of town and I couldn't verify correct blocking. BTW, a search of the archives under "holding tank" will pull up many additional discussions of this subject, and I'm not aware of anyone who has planned to relocate it as I have done. Nonetheless, I'm happy with my setup and the new location in the head. It's an option, especially if the keel HT was perhaps never plumbed as in Melinda's case. And I wouldn't have spent the last two 95 deg. Florida summers barrier coating, Cetoling, rewiring, re-rigging, etc. if I didn't love the Morgan 382 and plan to live aboard and sail her many more years!

Rick
 
I just spoke with a surveyor in Florida and he said he has never heard of a problem with the Morgan 38 holding tank resulting in sinking or taking water and he has surveyed many. Nothing has been noted in any publication he has read. He also indicated that with any boat, if you strike ground or any object hard enough, you will most likely do serious damage that may even result in sinking.
 
Ken,

Thanks for the additional pics....they were very helpful. I had to strip and anchor Celerity for Hannah's visit to Eastern NC and now I have to put her back together. I may have questions for you and some of the other owners at a later date when we begin to actually take on this project.

Seems to be controversy over size of holding tank space under bilge...I've heard/read it's 10-20 gallons. Anyone know for sure?

I see there has been recent discussion about placing holding tank elsewhere...I wonder about feasibility of placing it under V-berth in bow....plumbing around behind the shower would probably be a nightmare..anyone done this or have thoughts, pro or con?

Thanks,
Melinda
 
Regarding plumbing around/behind the shower - this winter, I'll be tackling putting in new plumbing for the shower.

Several others have already done this by cutting a hole beneath the fixture to gain access to the innards of the shower fixture. They patched up the hole by putting in an access plate. So gaining access isn't impossible. However, if you were to put a holding tank in the forward cabin, you'll need to have enough room for 2 sizable hoses (d=1-1/2 inch) plus a venting line. I may be mistaken, but I believe the bulkhead between the head and forward cabin is a load-bearing bulkead. I'd hate to weaken the integrity by drilling holes through it.

I suppose you could have a deck pump-out above the head, rather than put the waste forward on the port side and pump it/suck it out on the port aft area where it was meant to be plumbed to, but then you'll have quite a long run from the holding tank to the pump-out location and venting location (assuming you keep them "as is"). Plus, any leaks and you'll be in a smelly cabin.
 
Melinda & Matt,

You can drill through the bulkhead, but avoid the tabbing area near the hull. I would recommend round instead of square holes.
 
I thought I had dodged the holding tank bullet, but alas, the holding tank on Shepherd's Star has been deemed damaged.
It really stinks (no, really!)

A fiberglass expert has cut a viewing hole through the keel into the holding tank to determine the extent of the damage. Based on the photos taken, there is no tabbing on the tank to the keel. There are some delaminated areas from the tank to the Fiberglass-Reinforced Plastic (FRP) that could be due to the force of
blocking and the softness of the FRP, which broke filler from the tank bonding areas.

In order to repair the damage, he will cut and remove large sections of the keel in order to glass the tank to the keel and tab the vertical wall, then close up the keel and reinforce with additional FRP tabbing.

Another option suggested would be to simply repair the bottom of keel and close the access holes, leaving me without a holding tank, which is not really an option!

I have pictures of the damage and the inside of the tank, in case anyone wants to see what the construction looks like from the inside. I'm sorely tempted to sell exclusive viewing rights to the highest bidder to help offset the expensive repairs, but given the excellent free advice I've recieved from this site over the past two years, I think that would be in very poor taste - so I'll be happy to forward the pictures to whoever can post them on the site. However, the last time I posted pictures, they were much too large. Can someone let me know how to "shrink" the pics?

As this work progresses, additional progress photos will help other owners with questions and concerns about their holding tanks, how they were constructed and ways in which they might suffer damage or fail. Anyone in the Mamaroneck, NY area is free to come by and see the damage and repairs first-hand.

On a brighter note, I finished the re-plumbing job, and now have new faucet fixtures and a new showerhead, all-new PEX piping and have the ability to isolate leaks via a Seatech valved manifold.
 
Hi Matt, Melinda, etc.

I referred to my holding tank work in an earlier post in this thread. I'm happy with it.

The system is working fine as far as deck pumpout is concerned. I used the existing PVC pipe (previously used to route head output to the keel HT) to route pumpout from the new HT to the deck fitting. I haven't tested the macerator pumpout option yet, but I have no reason to think it won't be fine.

My installation uses a Todd plastic 13-gal tank mounted where the trashcan is usually installed in the head, and two Y-valves used to select different options.
I said last year that I would take photos. I did, but had no luck posting them on the board. I could email them to interested parties. The boat is in the Gulfport FL (St Pete) marina if someone local wants to see the installation.

Rick
 
Jim -

Thanks for your help on this. I just sent the pics via e-mail. I expect that some interesting facts will come out as the work gets done regarding construction of the holding tank and the boat.
I will probably use this opportunity to put in a 3/4 fill gauge.
 
Here are Matt's pictures of the damage to the holding tank portion of the Morgan keel. Certainly reason to NOT block under this area of the keel!
16705.jpg

Damage and improper blocking

16706.jpg

Underside of tank roof

16707.jpg

Inspection

16708.jpg

Interior Damage

16709.jpg

Tank Interior

16710.jpg

Interior Damage
 
Matt: Could you help us understand what happened to your keel and holding tank. I am confused by the pictures and the description in your post. Did your holding tank fail? Did it leak into the bilge? Did the keel fail or crack? Did your yard cut off the back the keel for repairs? Do you now have a holding tank in the keel or did your fill it in with something (epoxy?). What finally was the repair and what did it cost? I looked for other posts and couldn't find something to explain to me what happened. Thanks.
 
Terry,

The boat was improperly set and blacks were place under the holding tank portion of the keel. The result is the fracture you see. That is why it is extremely important to NOT place the weight of the boat on this part of the keel! A good yard will sound the keel before placing any blocks. I advice being in the yard when your boat is hauled and set to prevent this.

Sorry about the pictures, but that is the way they uploaded.

Jim
 
Terry -

I am the second owner of the boat. I acquired the boat in February of '07 from a foundation, which had received the boat from the son of the original owner.
From what I was told by the foundation, the original owner bought it in '79 when he retired, used it for 4-5 years as a sailing boat and went up and down the New England Coast. Once he hit 70, he used the boat as a summer place, kept it on a dock in Boston Harbor. He developed Altzeimer's and passed away, leaving the boat to his son. His son tried to sell it and left in in the water for 2 straight years before donating it to the foundation. With the exception of a new hot water tank, everything on the boat was original. The boat was hauled out of the boat graveyard in Boston and trucked down to Rhode Island in early January '07.
The survey, done in Jan '07, pointed out that the bottom needed to be grinded down and repaired (among lots of other items).
I started work on the boat in February of '07 and have done lots of work to literally everything. As I did not trust the original head to be in working order, I did not use it and did not use the holding tank. The boat was hauled out and set up on blocks and jackstands during Winter '07/08. The bottom part of the hull did not leak that Winter.
Last year I finally installed a new toilet (Lavac, which works beautifully). The original PVC piping underneath the settee was replaced with sanitary hose.
I still did not use the holding tank (made sure the guests on board "went" before they came on board).
The bilge was mostly dry for the season, though there was one week late in the summer when the Rule bilge switch died and the bilge filled with 3/4 with water, which I think was from rainwater or a loose stuffing box. I replaced the switch and the bilge did not have any more accumulation and the hourmeter did not show any significant use of the bilge pump (just about 6 minutes over a two month period).
When the boat was hauled and blocked this past fall, I was there to tell the operator to block only the front half of the keel and the extreme back end. Of course, he didn't block the very end, and the holding tank started to leak with a foul-smelling oily liquid. However, we both agreed that the damage on the keel was NOT recent.
Here's what I think happened... the boat was damaged either 1) once or twice by the original owner by an accidental grounding, 2) repeatedly over the years from the owner's yard when it was hauled, 3) from one of the two or more yards that handled her immediately prior to my getting her, or 4) from the trucker who brought her from Boston to Rhode Island. The damage was not enough to sink her, but did result in some seawater getting into the holding tank, which picked up some of the remaining "stuff" on the walls and led to the smelly discharge. Last fall, when the boat was hauled, the improper blocking finally led to enough damage to break the tank, leading to the discharge.
There are two rows of pics, four on the top and two on the bottom. The first picture in the first row shows the starboard side of the keel after grinding, with the original damage on the extreme bottom edge of the keel. The camera is almost on the ground, looking up.
The second was taken inside the tank looking up. Note how clean it looks!
The third is a shot of the lower keel, showing the amount of grinding done by the yard. Note the hole cut by the yard to inspect the inside of the tank.
The fourth shot shows the inside of the tank looking straight down. Notice the extra junk of resin lying there.
The fifth (second row) shows the inside looking forward, and the sixth shows the inside looking aft.
The fiberglass guy told me it could be repaired one of two ways. The first would be to grind out the impacted areas and patch it up, estimated at $2,500. The other way would be to remove both sides, build a true tank (rather than using a void), and then glass it in and cover it with new fiberglass and sealing it in place, for $7,500. After speaking with Jim, I opted for the first option, as it is the original design and lasted 30 years.
The fiberglass guy also told me the blocking wouldn't harm the boat, but I think he's wrong in this case. While it can take some abuse, Jim is absolutely correct that the yard must be told when blocking to avoid the holding tank area. If they don't properly block the area, some damage will most likely result, though it might not be apparent for a number of months or years. Being there when the boat is blocked is vitally important, b/c even when I told my current yard, they still messed it up.
 
Thanks.. This is very helpful. I have a 6 foot draft, so my keel foot is smaller than on a 5 foot draft. Nonetheless, I do as others suggest, and block only under the lead. I am curious about your instructions to block under the lead and then at the "extreme back end" of the keel. I don't have my yard do that last bit at the trailing edge. Wouldn't that also threaten damage? Or are you assuming that there is enough strength in the vertical construction of the trailing edge of the keel to allow blocking back there? That seems risky, too, since you are then blocking on the forward end of the keel and the after end and leaving the holding tank area unsupported in the middle. But, I am no structural engineer.
 
Terry -

Although I'm not a structural engineer by trade, I did study Mechanical Engineering in college. In thinking about this issue, one alternative that would address the issue of where to block and where not to block might be to block the entire keel. Since the very bottom of the keel is a flat surface, the force of the weight would be borne by the lead, and the opportunity for an uneven and excess force on the holding tank would be eliminated.

Think about it this way. Imagine extending your index finger and your pinkie, then stretching a rubber band between them. If you then push your fingers down on a table-top, no matter how hard you push, the stretched rubber band would not get deformed. But, if you put your fingers on either side of an object (say, a 1" block), the rubber band will stretch. If you put your index finger on a 1" block and the rubber band on another and pushed down, the rubber band would also stretch. Now imagine the rubber band is the holding tank, and you see the problem. Not a perfect analogy, I know, but it points out the benefit of blocking the whole keel.

The only danger then would be a yard operator who doesn't do a smooth and even job placing the boat down on the blocks. It should go down nose first, and up tail first. This would keep the aft part of the keel from getting banged up, with concurrent damage to the holding tank walls.

In any case, blocking only under the lead is probably the safest bet.

Also, not blocking the middle at all where the holding tank is does not pose a threat to the holding tank. If it is strong enough to withstand the water pressure, it is certainly strong enough to be "suspended" on land, so to speak. Think back to the stretched rubber band between the two supported fingers...
 
The initial placing of the vessel on the hard should not place the entire weight of the boat anywhere. Setting is a balanced act that must support the boat equally at different points on the hull and under the keel. Matt is correct that a flat plank can be placed under the entire keel for balance but the actual setting must be horizontal to the surface the boat will set on. The crane operator is the key. If he lifts the boat higher in the bow and attempts to lower it on blocks set under the aft portion of the keel, damage can or will result.
Jim
 
Again, this is very useful. My concern, expressed some time ago to the shock and dismay of Larry Brown, was that the boat could not be set on her bottom in a tide grid or the bottom of a bay far from home in order to do repairs or bottom cleaning. If she will sit safely on the entire keel, as the tide goes out, (balanced against the tide grid uprights or with poles), one of my concerns is assuaged. (Of course, old style tide grids we used when I was a boy are no longer allowed in our country, but they surely exist elsewhere. I guess if their keel supports are not solid-but are instead consist of several separated "blocking" cross members,as I remember-- one would have the same risk. Of course, at my age, the chances I will have to careen the boat on a beach somewhere has become highly unlikely. I appreciate learning from you all, however.
 
Matt: sorry, a couple more questions. The round hole in the side of the keel--it looks as if there is something just inside the hole--something grey. Is there a "tank" inside the keel, or is the keel the "integral tank." I am confused. Since I am confused, I am not sure I have made my question clear. If not, let me know.
Also, how thick was the lay-up where you cut the nice round hole?

thanks.
 
I just wanted to chime in that my dismay at the fact you couldn't simply rest the boat on any length of the keel was my lack of understanding how the keel was built. I don't have this tank as I have the centerboard CM38. I would (and did) assume that Ted Brewer would have designed the keel in a way that would distribute the load on any point on the bottom of the keel to the leading and trailing edge of the keel. Kind of like an upside down header across a doorway. Then with the side panels it would give rigidity to keep the shape from twisting forward or aft.

This was without an understanding of how the design was implemented. The fact that blocking can cause damage is exactly why there needs to be a site like this to let people know that this potential exists. And although it doesn't apply to me, I can see this as a priceless fact to those new owners of the 38x boats.

Larry
S/V Ridiculous
 
I think everyone should know that damage to the holding tank area of the keel will not result in sinking because this area is a watertight compartment. But the damage can be expensive to repair, as with any other portion of the hull. Knowledge is the key in preventing problems. The owner needs to inform the yard of the keel holding tank when hauling anywhere in the world and be there if possible.

Jim
 
Terry -

The round hole was cut by the fiberglass guy, in order to examine the inside to determine the exent of damage. You can just see half of the cut-out piece in the bottom left of the picture.
The grey "thing" you see in the 3rd photo inside the hole on the starboard side is actually the port side of the inside keel. Along the top left edge is a bit of shadow, which reflects the depth of the space - it is about 5 or six inches across, if memory serves. Remember, the holding "tank" is nothing more than the void created by fiberglassing the area where there was no lead.
Back to the analogy of your index finger and pinky. Extend both fingers and point them down, then wrap a peice of paper around the two fingers - it will form a hollow space. If you then put more material on the open slot by the tips of your fingers, voila! You've created a holding tank in the fashion of the Morgan 38. Again, there was no internal tank inside the cavity - the cavity itself was the tank. And to re-iterate Jim's point, the damage did not result in sinking the vessel, though seawater did manage to seep into the tank. Photo #2 above shows the underside of the bilge from the holding tank view, looking up. THAT area is watertight, so any damage to the tank would not sink the boat. I could launch the Shepherd's Star as is and have it last a season or two without sinking, despite that 3" hole in the keel (though I won't!)
The fiberglass walls are about 3/8" thick, which doesn't sound like much until you try to grind through it. But like any material, strength will diminish as area grows - think of plate glass - it's difficult to break a 1/8" thick piece of glass that's 4 square inches in size (2X2), but a piece of cake to break a 1/8" piece of glass that's 100 square inches in size (10X10). Same thing with FRP, and when/if you rest the entire weight of the boat on the holding tank area alone, you are subjecting that area of the keel to forces it was not designed to withstand.
Imagine what would happen if you rested the front end of the keel on a rigid steel beam 1" thick sitting crossways underneath the boat - nothing much, perhaps some crushed and damaged gelcoat and chipped paint. The lead would not allow for any significant deformity. But if you did the same to the holding tank area, the sound and sight of the fiberglass getting ripped through as 8 -plus tons pushed a 3/8" FRP skin against the beam would probably never be forgotten. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to my local parish to light a candle to the patron saint of fiberglass boats to make sure it doesn't happen to the Shepherd's Star!
By the way - showing my ignorance - what is a tide grid?
 
Thanks for the follow up, Matt. 3/8" thickness in this part of the boat is reassuring, actually. On sinking, many of us have holding tanks that leak a little if full--so they are not exactly water tight. I have tried to repair mine, but not yet been successful. It is hard to get my hands and tools into the bilge to do the work. Tide Grids: When I was a boy (in the 50s), just starting out sailing, many folks did not go to yards to "haul" their boats. You went to your marina's "tide grid" a series of very stout timbers laid along the shore, like railroad ties, only wider and stronger. Along one side of the grid were pilings and cross members. You took your boat over the tide grid and lashed up to the side pilings at high tide. When the tide went out, your boat was high and dry and you could scrub and paint and do whatever you needed to do as long as you got done before the tide came in. Of course, all the toxic materials went right onto the beach. Back then, just before fin keels got popular (I saw the first Thunderbird sailing in Gig Harbor, Washington) most folks had long keeled boats, or fishing trawlers, boats that sat very comfortably on a tide grid. My dad's 40 footer had a long flat iron keel, about a foot wide, so she could sit upright on a grid. In fact, she was designed to sit on her keel in far away places, balanced by poles (booms, etc)placed in buckets in the mud.
 
I went to the boat this past weekend, and the fiberglass guy has completed the patch. So I won't be able to get any more pics, unfortunately.
I'm surprised how fast he got this done, considering the amount of work he has in the yard.
 
A brief update on plumbing of my never-plumbed holding tank. Believe it or not, I located a former owner of this boat from a copy of the title search for my documentation. They owned her in mid-80's and he confirmed that the holding tank was not plumbed by the factory.
So I held my breath and drilled a 3/8" hole in the floor of the bilge in area where the holding tank vent would have been. Was I relieved to find an empty space; no water, no filler of any kind! I "corked" the hole and added Lifeseal around it to keep any bilge water from entering until I can get started (for real!) on the project. That has been delayed since my retirement (I should be retired as I write) has been postponed for about a year.
Thanks to all of you for your advice and encouragement. I'll keep you posted when the project finally moves forward.
 
Hi all,
I am thinking about replacing pomp out
section of the holding tank hose ( smells bad). I measured OD of about 2,25", so I suspect its ID is about 1.825( has a red stripe) ? Does anybody know the ID of that section? Also how to access the deck fitting? Looks to me like I need to remove the electrical panel? Your advice would be very helpful.
Tom
 
Have you checked the vent line? They do plug up with salt. Also I would flush the holding tank system with bleach water solution and let it sit for a day or two.
Jim
 
Hi Jim,
my vent is ok, It was plugged up when I got the boat.( I am in Chesapeake) I will do the Clorox flush, beats hose replacement. My holding tank is currently partially filled with pink antifreeze and I am staying on the hard for another winter, while stripping my bottom, and working on other projects.
Anybody replaced pump out hose? I checked the deck fills offered on line and
all of them are for 1 1/2" ID hose, so 1 7/8" sounds kind of non standard?
Thanks,
Tom
 
What about adding clorox to the tank now? Fill it all the way to the deck fitting and let it sit. You may have to clamp the vent line partially.
Jim
 
I would add 1/3 or 1/2 cup/gallon. Fill to the top an let it stand for some time. It is safer than the antifreeze.
Jim
 
Tomasz -

Also be advised that my experience with the orange anti-freeze is that it smells horrible after some time sitting. The yard my boat is in put it in the water tanks, and when I re-plumbed the boat last spring, I had to flush the whole system twice to get rid of the stink.
I can't imagine the pump-out section would ever get bad (it doesn't have the waste sitting in it, like other areas of the system).

Matt Fahey
Shepherd's Star
 
Water tanks/entire system should be totally empty with no additives, Holding tank the same. Fuel should be FULL with additives.
Jim
 
Okay
Now it's my turn for a Head/Bilge Waste problem!
Went sailing came back 6 hours later the cabin smelled awful! Checked bilge: Brown water about 5-6 inches deep. I am assume ing fermented urine, etc. Yuk!

Yes I am also assuming that the holding tank overflowed from too many people using it the 2 weeks. About a dozen or so. SHould have kept a better eye on the use.
The sensor did not indicate full. So I assume also it is not working at all.
How or where can the holding tank waste get into the bilge? Any suggestions of how to fix it?
 
You won't we able to fix it until you know what is wrong. You should start by emptying the holding tank. Fill the tank with a colored water by pumping from the head and look for leaks throughout the system.

Bleach should not harm your FG. Good Luck!
Jim
 
What kind of colored water? I don't want to permanently stain the bilge. What "coloring agent" is what I am asking? Food coloring would stain. Is there something made specifically for this?
Also, Do you think I can I do this at the "pump out" station? Never having had this unpleasant experience before I am looking for all the advice I can get...short of selling the boat. ha, ha.
Thanks

We have no intention of doing that by the way. We love the way our Morgan sails... just not the way she smells right now.
 
Food coloring should not stain the resin of FG. You have to pump out the holding tank before you do anything. Do you believe food coloring is worse than oil?

What exactly, is in you bilge? You seem to indicate it is from your holding tank.

You can always take it to a yard for advice or repair.
 
Hi Jim
Unfortunately, unlike San Francisco, we are located miles from what I consider to be a "reputable Yard". So we are sort of in a "do it your-self" mode much of the time here. Otherwise, I would not hesitate to hire out some help.
That said the color is putrid brown (not oil) and it definitely smells of holding tank fumes.
No one used it for solid waste as far as I know the last few months but maybe someone snuck one or two by while I was up top enjoying the view!.
 
Bottom line, both bilge and holding have to be pumped out somehow. Either offshore or a pumpout station. You can then pump water, either sea or fresh, and fill the holding tank while looking for leaks. The leak could be anywhere in the line from the head or where it attaches to the top of the tank. It could be the floor of the bilge. It just takes time and persistence.
Jim
 
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