• Welcome to this website/forum for people interested in the Morgan 38 Sailboat. Many of our members are 'owners' of Morgan 38s, but you don't need to be an owner to Register/Join.

Handrail attachement

P

paragon

Alan & Cheryl Shedd
I've searched the site for information on how the handrails are attached to the cabin top. I need to refinish them and rebedding them at the same time looks like a good idea on a 25 year-old.

As best I can tell, they are screwed to the deck, not thru-bolted. Can someone confirm this? When I re-install, it seems like thrubolting would be preferable other than having to remove the headliner and the fact that the fiberglass headliner in the head cannot be removed.

I like the idea of matching the bolts up with handrails installed on the inside but I haven't evaluated whether that makes sense placement-wise. Not crazy about drilling holes in the head head liner for bolt access then plugging the holes on the inside. I wonder if I could set a t-nut into a hole from the top and pour epoxy around it to set it in place.

Any thing I need to watch out for if I decide to remove the headliner? Any comments and suggestions or updates appreciated.

Thanks.

-Alan
 
Alan,
great to see you experience the boat! smart.

The handrails on my 382#046 are just screwed into the cabin roof - no backing plates or thru-bolts.
The only way I know to remove them is to pop the teak plugs and remove the beefy screws, do your repair, replace with new plugs, chisel off the excess and sand down.
I refinish them on deck, taped off. Too much work to take them all apart each time.

If there's a better method, I'm all ears.

I do see the merit of securing them from below for all but the bathroom. The one's up front hopefully should never have any real load on them anyway - more for cosmetic. The rear ones are where someone more than likely grab on to in case of a fall.
However, they DO hold very well just the way they are. For both trans-At's and the heavy weather sailing in the Med, I had my flattened dingy strapped down to them in all kinds of weather. I can report that only the port forward handrail (over the head) loosened. I popped the plugs, filled the deck holes with epoxy, rebeded, and voila - off and runnning again.

Look somewhere back in the archives to study up on the deck structure(4x4 wood inlays embedded). The deck's really strong and quite fixable should water get in to a tile.

Keep up the good stuff - your boat's going to be the gem of your marina at your pace!

Enjoy!

by the way - happy new year!

Tony
 
The teak handrails on my 383 were thrubolted, with nuts and washers on the inside. If you are replacing or repairing existing rail, use flat head machine screws, so that the countersunk shape doesn't split the wood, then fill with a teak plug. It's not such a bad job to remove the headliner, and a 1" hole in the fiberglass head-liner can be easily plugged with a stainless button. I think the tee nuts epoxied on the inside would work well.
 
Alan,

The rails on my 383 were not thru bolted. I suspect if some are it was done after market. I think the stock installation is certainly secure enough to preclude the necessity of thru bolting unless you want to use the rails to tie heavy things to. As far as matching up an interior hand hold the existing rails are too far outboard to make the interior position useful.

Jimmie
 
Alan and Sheryl: this is a job I too have meanat to do since I bought the boat in 1997. Never got to it,so many other projects, but I think it is a very good idea. One of my hesitations is that to do it right, you need to overdrill the hole, plug it on the bottom, then fill with epoxy, then redrill for a smaller through bolt. Of course, you can just drill through, but that risks rot in the plywood and if you are doing it, better do it right. So, given my sloth, it never got done at all. Same with my inboard jib tracks, which sit at home in the garage and have never been installed. I am, nonetheless, also glad to hear Tony reassure us all. Anyway, let us know how the job goes.
 
If you thru-bolt the handrails you run the risk of leaks! Think of all the holes through the cabintop.
Jim
 
There is a risk of leaks either way. I'd go with the through bolting (which will happen when I replace the original hand rails in a month or so) to insure a solid thing to grip in a seaway.

The wood screws are leaking, by the way.
 
Hi Bill:

I will be interested to read of your project. Please write details and provide photos if possible when you do your rail replacement. I've shifted that project on my boat to a lower priority - we are trying to get the bottom done, the cutlass bearing and shaft installed, thru-hulls, etc, so we can relaunch the boat - yard fees are mounting up and the rest - including putting the engine back in can wait till after the boat is floating.

-Alan
 
I would think long and hard about drilling 18 holes thru the cabin top into the interior. The slightest failure to seal the holes will certainly lead to leaks and deterioration. My boat is 33 years old and although I have taken the handrails off one time they have been stepped on, jumped pm. tied to with heavy objects, fallen on and accepted every known abuse that a sailboat can dish out racing and cruising. They don't leak !! They are sturdy and never failing. They don't need thru bolting. Jim Hudnut/Stella Maris
 
Interesting conversation about the handrails. I haven't had to take mine off yet. But back in 1988 I installed two dorade boxes with s/s 4" vents. Because the vents are large and sit high they seemed to be possible targets that might be grabbed by someone in a ackward moment on a rough sea day. So, I attached aluminum L bars to the cabin top, spread a layer of silicone and through bolted with fender washers. Then I did the same to the dorade boxes. The reason why I am telling you this, is that after 17 years of service there have been no leaks. When I made the decision to install them back in 88, I was very worried about drilling through the cabin top and creating a leak. As far as the handrails are concerned; I would consider into my decision making, that if the originals have been attached for 20 + years as screw on, and have serviced a well sailed boat without failure, why look for trouble.
Larry
 
Anyone care to fill me in about how to attach handrails without drilling holes (either with screws or with thru-bolts)?

Mine are screwed in place using wood screws and they are already leaking. I'm pretty sure that the factory installed them with screws (as a standard approach), so the holes are already there.
 
Bill Hardie, if you know that they have never been removed in the past I would remove, re-bed with somithing like 5000 and re-install. If they have been removed in the past you may have to remove and epoxy the holes, re-drill and install with bedding compound. JHudnut/Stella Maris
 
agree with all that, but I would really not use 5000 or you'll have a bear of a time getting them off the next time.
By the way, I have taken the large handrail off twice in 10 yrs to rebed and completely sand down and do new Cetol. The front ones have been more often due to using them as tie-downs for the dingy.

This line of questions has been great - go back and read over it - look at how experience over intellect won out - that's the beauty of the board!

Smooth sailing and fresh warm breezes!
Capt Tony
s/v Papeche
'78 M382 #046
 
Bill Hardie. I notice that no one actually answered your first question. There are only two ways to reliably install hand rails on deck. You either screw them in the cabin top or you thru bolt them into the saloon. Either way requires re-sealing. I think you will find that they were installed by Morgan Yachts with 3 to 3 1/2 inch wood screws, not thru bolted. If you have a head liner in the cabin thru bolts would be ok because you can cover them. Without an accessible headliner you are going to have exposed cap nuts lining the ceiling. My boat, a CM38, would have 7 cap nuts exposed along each side of the cabin. Not very good idea as far as my aesthetics are concerned Jim Hudnut/Stella Maris
 
But therein lies the rub. There HAS to be holes so it doesn't matter whether they are screwed or thru-bolted. I suppose that part is a matter of preference. I'd prever thru-bolting just to be sure of the strength.

We're about to replace ours since over twenty years of sanding and refinishing, they are about a third of the size of the originals. The existing holes will be plugged/sealed, and new ones drilled for the attachment. We've got the headliner, so covering the undersides is no problem, but if there were no headliner, I'd probably go with using a second handrail below to back the one on deck for two reasons: 1 - it'd look good in the process, and 2 - give you more stuff to grab in a seaway.
 
A problem that I see with the screwed in handrails is that if they are leaking, you may not know about it. The screws go through the first layer of glass then into the core material. If there is a small leak the water will stay in the core and eventually cause a greater amount of damage. If you thru bolt you can protect the core with epoxy where the bolts penetrate. I like Bill's idea of putting a matching set of handrails inside the cabin. It is a lot of work to do that job.

Jim
 
Think I'm going with a bedding compound instead, and probably do the edges with silicon. I've not had good luck with the 5200 on the large ports.
 
We were, but the suggestion to use 5200 to bed something on deck brought to mind that the 5200 I used to bed the large ports was NOT a good idea. I suspect that 5200 isn't a decent bedding agent.

Sorry to have (supposedly) swapped tracks.
 
Bill
After having the 5200, that I used to seal the large window, fail, I brought the problem up with the 3M people at a boat show. The answer they gave was that the 5200 is subject to UV degregation, especially when the sunlight is magnified through the plexiglass window. They then said I would have to use a chisel to remove the window. That spring when the numerous screws holding the window were removed, it fell off in my hands and the 5200 crumbled away like dust. I now use West Marine silicone sealer and the windows never leak. If I was to rebed the handrails, it would not be with 5200.

Jim
 
You may want to consider 3M 4000UV It is not as tenacious as 5200 so you can possibly disassemble it later. It is supposed to have UV inhibitors, and is suitable for above and below the water.

From 3M website:
Resistant to weathering, saltwater, and stresses caused by joint movement. Seals between mechanically fastened joints on wood, fiberglass, metal and most plastics above and below the waterline. Applications include sealing deck to hull joints, thru-hull fittings, window and door frames, deck hardware, navigation lights, hatches and porthole frames. It is also paintable.

While I've used silicon for bedding hardware, recent review in Practical Sailor rated polysulfide caulks superior to silicon for this.

-Alan
 
I would just add this. Most everyone I have run into describes 5200 as tenacious ( or a similarly strong word ). A description of "crumbling away" defies everyone else's experience. Perhaps coating it to prevent UV is all that is necessary to keep a "tenacious" bond. If that is the case I don't see why using it to seal the screws / bolts would be a poor choice.

As for thru bolt vs screw, I agree with the assessment that simply screwing them into the deck could allow leakage in between the laminates; however, the following comment about epoxying the holes for thru bolting could be applied to the screw down process with a correspondingly strong barrier.

If done properly I don't think there is any difference in the exception of how the interior looks, IE exposed bolts, area covered by the headliner, or matching handrails inside.

Larry
 
Okay, I'm going to put my 2 cents in. I really don't know anyone who has ever had a good experience with 5200. Yet I always hear it recommended, and see it being used for various tasks around the boat yard. I tried it once as a glue. The result was no great shakes. I never tried it again.
Now what I'm going to say might raise a few eyebrows. I use silicone calking compound for everything around the boat. I use an outdoor 40 year life span silicone. I don't care what brand it is. I know it works because I have been useing it on several boats, over many, many years. What ever I put on does not ever leak. One example that I can tell you about is that in 1986 I installed 3 new bronze thru hull fittings on my then 23 foot, 1963 O'day Tempest. The following year I bought Southerly (M382). I gave the Tempest to my son. We still have the Tempest and I also work on it every year. The now 20 year old thru hulls are still perfectly dry.
If your eyebrows are still a bit raised I can tell you from very long experience rather than PR articles and product hype that you can go into any good hardware store and buy a tube of outdoor 40 year life silcone, use it and never have a problem. That is if you want to listen to a life time of experience rather that an article that you read.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Just kidding....I read the same articles and they really sound convincing. I just know better from my experiences. But you really have to do what makes you comfortable.
Larry
 
jimcleary said:
A problem that I see with the screwed in handrails is that if they are leaking, you may not know about it. The screws go through the first layer of glass then into the core material. If there is a small leak the water will stay in the core and eventually cause a greater amount of damage. If you thru bolt you can protect the core with epoxy where the bolts penetrate. I like Bill's idea of putting a matching set of handrails inside the cabin. It is a lot of work to do that job.

Jim
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,

Just bringing this old post back up. My handrails are leaking so I intend on rebedding. My plan is to use the same type of screws that were used prior but over drill the holes and fill with epoxy first.
Are you saying that the original screws would only screw into the core and would not go all the way through the cabin ? That would make my life a lot easier for the epoxy filling part.
 
Fortin024 said:
Hi Jim,

Just bringing this old post back up. My handrails are leaking so I intend on rebedding. My plan is to use the same type of screws that were used prior but over drill the holes and fill with epoxy first.
Are you saying that the original screws would only screw into the core and would not go all the way through the cabin ? That would make my life a lot easier for the epoxy filling part.
Click to expand...
The handrails, at least on mine, are near the corner of the cabin top, and there is no core there. The screws go through the cabin top, but only through fiberglass.

There isn't as much bite as there could be, especially if the screws have ever been overtightend. I had a screw pull out when I grabbed a rail for balance.

It's a lot of work, but for a lasting and safe repair, remove the headliner and replace with screws with nuts underside. No need to re drill holes as there is no wood core involved.
 
I replaced mine with stainless specially built by the folks in California that do stainless work for Catalina. Don't recall the name. They built in the curve for me and have a bolt that screws into the rail from below. They were not that expensive, The head issue is easily resolved: drill holes through the head module where necessary to access the rail attachments, then cover with a strip of varnished teak.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top