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Eliana Haul out.

Warren Holybee

Warren Holybee

Active Member
Eliana is on the hard as of today. The last haul out was in Panama about 2 years ago, for a very quick coat of paint. The paint is in bad shape, but not actually as bad as I expected. That will save a lot of money, as I am going to put off the complete strip down to gel coat. I expect I am going to head to Mexico this November, maybe I will get to it while I'm down there. Or in Fiji.

A few pics. It took less than an hour for me to get the rudder off. The yard will pull the propellor. Cutlass is beyond shot, but I knew that. I also snapped a picture of the HDPE bushing that I made for the gudgeon. I think most use UHMW from McMaster, and I bought some of that to replace the HDPE. I'm pretty surprised the HDPE held up for 35,000nm. I sourced the HDPE from a milk jug. It wasn't anything fancy.

Plan is that it will rain the next few days and the yard won't be working on her. This weekend I hope to get the cutlass done, the new Maxprop on, and the rudder back on.

I also bought some underwater lights. I used to think they were nonsense, until I was in the tropics on a friends boat that had them.

Also some pictures of my dyneema steering "cable". There is an odd corrosion like substance, almost as if the dyneema was metal and reacting with the aluminum/stainless. I think the dyneema will be ok after a cleaning, but I want to know what is going on. I have about 10,000 miles and 2.5 years on the dyneema. I'll end up replacing it very soon, but don't want to disassemble the pedestal right now in the yard.
 

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Thanks for sharing the photos. I have one steering cable that periodically breaks a strand of wire. I can't see any cause. Do you think the dyneema is preferable? What size is that?
 
terry_thatcher said:
Thanks for sharing the photos. I have one steering cable that periodically breaks a strand of wire. I can't see any cause. Do you think the dyneema is preferable? What size is that?
Click to expand...
6mm which is close to 1/4" The boat originally could have had 3/16" of 1/4" stainless cable.

The cause of your breaking strands is probably age/use and a sign that it needs to be replaced. I assume the breaks are part of the wire that goes over the sheave under the pedestal. As it bends between straight and curved, the metal fatigues until it just gives up.

The Dyneema started as an emergency fix, when my cable broke offshore, and I replaced it with dyneema that I had onboard. Because dyneema doesn't fatigue and is plenty strong enough, I decided to leave it and see how it performs. I need to figure out what is going on with the corrosion/buildup, but otherwise I do think it is better than the stainless steel. And a whole lot cheaper if you have priced a new cable from Edson.

Where the dyneema makes a sharp turn and goes through the quadrant there is a bit of chafe (under all that white grime) and I might make a leather chafe guard for that turn.
 
The bottom paint seems to have held up pretty well. If I may ask, what bottom paint did yoy use? thanks in advance.
 
I don't remember. It was done in Panama, some off brand. I was thinking it did poorly. There are a few large areas of bare gelcoat ( trailing edge of rudder, trailing edge of keel, and leading edge of bow) and thats not good after only 2 years imo. I might expect the biocides to fail in 2 years, but really expect the coating to last 3. It adds a lot if expense to deal with bare gelcoat.

Remember, on the west coast we don't haul out often. Its expensive. There is decent sailing, and even racing in the winter. Lay days are $95, and increase rapidly for longer stays. The yard is full, and its a several week wait to get hauled. Many boats haul only every 3-5 years. The annual haul seems to almost never happen.
 
Mitchell S Allen said:
Warren what yard are you at, and are they allowing you to do any work yourself?
Mitchell
Click to expand...
Berkeley Marine Center. They said i can DIY, live aboard, and do almost anything i want. Almost because i would need lots of special equipment to sand anything myself.

I'm letting them do the heavy lifting (sanding) and the actual painting which itself isn't so expensive.
I'm doing stuff that with my familiarity with the boat i can get done quickly. Dropping the rudder was only 45 min by myself. That might have been billed half a day-$500. They are now going to pull the prop as they have a puller for it. Then ill do the cutlass and install the new prop, and reinstall the rudder.

If i have time ill do the underwater lights. The challenge there is that i want to install them at the correct depth, and need to drill from the inside out. I'm not sure how to do that.
I plan one on each side, in the locker forward the chart table, and exactly across from that under the galley counter, behind the hot water heater.
Its raining and the yard stops work in the rain, so i expect Eliana will be on the hard a couple weeks. They don't charge lay days until they are done with their work, so that gives me more time.
 
Wow, very good!
When I hauled out at Spaulding Last October, they wouldn't allow me to anything. I wanted to bore a hole for the propane vent tube. I had my tools with me, but nope. They were going to charge an hour, $140. Something I did later from my tender in 10 minutes. That was one of the smaller issues I had with them. Very disappointing.
 
When I hauled out at Spaulding in 2016 I was able to DIY, and they were very accommodating with lending tools, giving free advice, etc. I think everything changed during Covid. From what I understand, Berkeley just recently allows it again.

Spaulding also had really good prices. But there was a near catastrophe launching my boat, when is spun unexpectedly and the cranes cable tangled with the standing rigging. There was no damage and I was replacing the rigging anyway, but I'm not willing to take that risk. I just don't think their crane is appropriate for boats our size. Their specialty is smaller wooden boats, and I will leave them with that.
 
I agree, their crane is at, or close to its limit.
I know that the yard changed hands, but not sure if that was after your experience or not. Sometime I'll relate my disappointment when we see each other again.
I'm hoping the next haul out, I'm able to do out of the country. Sonata is nearly ready to go.
I was in Maine looking at a Swan 43 in October and spoke with a yard there about some work it required. Their prices were at least $50 less per hour than SF Bay.
 
At some point i do need to strip Eliana to gelcoat, but the 11k that would cost is a bit steep. Mexico, particularly southern Mexico, is the cheapest "nearby" place to go.
A friend with a westsail 32 had is hull stripped to gelcoat, a barrier coat, then 2 coats of ablative, for a bit more than $1500. 4 guys working 8 hour days for 7 days to complete it.

Here, the material alone is more than $1500. An 4 guys 8 hours a day for 7 days is about $30k. The difference is obscene.

Anyplace around Bandaras Bay is L.A. prices. The yards and marinas there are owned by American investors and they are American boats that get work done there.
 
No stripping machine. When I say strip, I only mean paint. If someone is so careless they can't remove paint without also removing the gelcoat, they shouldn't be near any boat.
 
Thanks warren. I misread the total time on your bottom paint. Yea that doesn't look that good. I hope that was an ablative, not a hard coat. Have you been applying ablative?
 
Working on installing the Prop today. And crap.
I will need to shorten the shaft by about 2" I was hoping not to have to do that, but am not surprised. What concerns me more is that the nut for the Max prop is very long and inserts deep into the prop. It doesn't seem that I have enough thread on my shaft to install it. So I might need a complete new shaft. I have no idea how long that will take or where to get it (locally) until Monday. Lay days are $95, so I really wanted this done without paying $1000 for my boat to sit waiting for parts. I guess I can just hope for more rain, because if the yard can't finish the paint then I won't get charged any more days.

Also, Are there different threads for prop nuts, or are they standard? When ordering the MAX prop there was no indication of threads, only shaft size. The look the same, but seem like they might be different. Close enough the nut almost threads on, but I don't want to force it.
 
Hooo Boy!
All the machinists I knew are long departed.
Cree should know one. Take the shaft and the prop to him or Svendsen's or KKMI. There is a solution.
I had to shorten my shaft at anchorage with a carbide blade many years ago. By doing so I gave up the coupling keyway, but the set screws on the Aqua drive coupling have held fast....so far!
If you watch enough YouTube you could probably do it with a hand held drill motor while holding it in your teeth.
I'm just up the road, Text me or I'll just drop by tomorrow to help you hold your umbrella
510-*719-0227
 
john english said:
Hooo Boy!
All the machinists I knew are long departed.
Cree should know one. Take the shaft and the prop to him or Svendsen's or KKMI. There is a solution.
I had to shorten my shaft at anchorage with a carbide blade many years ago. By doing so I gave up the coupling keyway, but the set screws on the Aqua drive coupling have held fast....so far!
If you watch enough YouTube you could probably do it with a hand held drill motor while holding it in your teeth.
I'm just up the road, Text me or I'll just drop by tomorrow to help you hold your umbrella
510-*719-0227
Click to expand...
I am staying on board tonight and will be working here tomorrow. Berkeley. It would be great to see you. I have spent the last 5 hours or so working on getting the shaft coupling off. I have about an 1/8" left to go and am taking a break. But it is moving steadily so I expect to be victorious soon.
 
I just installed a MaxProp last spring. It requires a shorter shaft, as you have learned. Critical to have it short enough so you can install the MaxProp zinc without dropping the rudder. Measure carefully. Also, you will need to shorten or remove altogether the stub of the shaft log that sticks out from the boat. Then you have to redrill for cutlass set screws. Mark Pearson took his off altogether. My yard just cut part of it off. I wish I had removed it completely. I have very little room to install a shaft zinc. I have had my machinist cut some donut zincs as thin as he can so they will not obstruct the cutlass water lubrication. And, of course, in future, the rudder will need to be dropped to remove the prop which, previously, I could just do without dropping the standard prop. But . . . the MaxProp really improves sailing performance. Good luck.
 
Dang the wind!
I am just cleaning up and getting ready to call it quits for the day. The shaft and cutlass are out. I don't know what is wrong and why the prop nut for the Max-Prop doesn't fit the shaft. I looked up the SAE specs for shaft sizes, and best I can tell the shaft is correct with 7/8"-9 threads. And the original nut spins on very easily. I am worried maybe PYI sent me an incorrect nut, but I don't have a way to measure the threads.

A huge thanks to John who stopped by today and is going to drop off the prop and shaft at a machinist to evaluate what is wrong, and shorten it by 2".

The other thing I did was install a pair of underwater lights. Of 8 screws (4 screws for each light) the last 2 screws broke in the fiberglass. Crap. They are both on the top edge of the light, so there isn't any support there. I'm not sure if I need to drill them out, repair the glass, and then re-drill, or if I can just glue the light on with 5200.

I am hoping it rains enough this week that the yard can't work on my boat to get time for the prop work to get done, and so I can work on it more next weekend. I could do without the wind, though.
 
I’ll do a rain dance for you, Warren.

I wish I could remember more details on what I did. Terry has a much better memory than me. I had the work done at a yard here that does very good work, but they charge big bucks. I guess I had money back then!

The Maxprop was worth the cost and suffering, though. Significant sailing performance gain. We went from getting last place in club races to first place. I hope you get a great payback too.
 
I spoke with both the Machinist and PYI today. The Machinist can't look at it until tomorrow, but said the prop itself definitely fits the shaft correctly but he still needs to measure the threads on the nut.

I spoke to the actual machinist at PYI that machined my prop, which was nice to be able to do. He checked his notes and the prop and nut were both machined to 1"- 1/4 shaft with 7/8-9 threads then test fitted to a shaft in house. He said they have had this issue before, and that the threads on the shaft were just a bit too tall, and re-tapping the shaft fixes it. If so, that is an easy fix, but a delay and money I really need to save.

This haulout was going to max out my credit card before this issue, and over the weekend a fence blew down at my rental property, so I have that unexpected expense too.
 
Got the estimate for the shaft. $626. Ouch.

That includes:
Fixing the threads
Shortening the shaft
Cut a new keyway and dimples for the coupling
Fit and reface coupling
Check for runout

I checked the price for a new shaft online, and the price was about the same for a new shaft.
 
I hate haul outs. A huge expense that shouldn't be, and always a PITA dealing with other peoples problems and mistakes.
I still have no date on when I might get my shaft. For how long it is taking, I could have ordered a new shaft, cut and ground to my specifications, cheaper and faster. Why do I even bother trying to support local businesses?

The hull is painted, except the rudder which is on the ground and the squares for the jack stand. There are dozens of puffy areas where the paint did not adhere, the port side is especially bad. I am asking them to fix those.

I'm not sure if they are charging me lay days or not yet. I am hoping not, and that they won't charge me extra for making them fix their shoddy work.

I pray I will never have to haul out in California Again. Had I known of all these issues I've have put it off another year and did it in Mexico or Fiji. This whole thing is already a $10,000 haul out and expenses are still growing. And it's going to exceed the limit on my credit card, and I am going to have to dip into other sources in order to pay for it all.
 
I am sorry you are suffering the boat yard blues. My yard is not cheap, altho much cheaper than California rates, I expect. Small yard in Portland that let me help install my new engine. Not major stuff, but things I could do without help.

Did you cut off or reduce in size the stub of the shaft log that sticks out from the stern? Necessary so you can remove and replace MaxProp zincs.
 
Yes, i removed the stub. Shaft is to be shortened by 2", and the threads need re tapping to fit the max prop nut.

If My measurements are correct that will barely be enough, leaving just enough room to change the prop zinc, but not much extra. I found a large performance increase (reduced cavitation) when i inserted my drive saver moving the prop aft. So i want the prop as far aft as possible.

If 2" isn't enough, i can remove the drivesaver for another inch.
 
Well, good news. Prop and shaft are done. They said it took much longer than estimated (4 hours instead of 2 to fix the threads) but somehow was $200 cheaper than the estimate. I didn't question that but don't understand it.

Shaft and prop are installed. I had to ditch the drive saver for enough room to service the anode. Not a big deal. The prop is as far aft as space will allow and that is what i want.

Need to install the rudder still.
 
I also removed my drive saver but was able to install an R&D flexible coupling that also acts, they claim, as a shock absorber. Available from PYI Marine.
 
terry_thatcher said:
I also removed my drive saver but was able to install an R&D flexible coupling that also acts, they claim, as a shock absorber. Available from PYI Marine.
Click to expand...
I saw those. How thick are they?

Got the rudder installed today. Still need to install the quadrant etc., but all the underwater work is done. If figure about 2 hours to install the quadrant and connect the steering, and about 2-3 days to clean the boat and put everything away. It is truly a mess.
 
Total Cost for the Haulout, $9800 and some change:

Maxprop $4280
Propspeed, shaft packing etc. $342
Antifoul bottom job $3649
Additional sanding and prep $545
Underwater lights $400
Misc supplies $200

The bottom is "ok" at best. They had to re-sand and reapply some large areas because the existing paint is in so poor condition, and it really needs to be stripped all the way down and start over, but I can't afford to do that at prices in the US, (or at least the West Coast). It would have added another $10k. So, maybe in Mexico or Fiji.

I'm a bit concerned about the rudder. There was some rusty water on the ground where it was sitting. I couldn't verify if it was seeping from inside, or if it was from the exposed shaft at the gudgeon. The exposed shaft was quite rusty (but seemed fine once cleaned and polished) and there was a clear rust stain on the outside of the rudder where that rust dripped down from it.

So, concern, but nothing I can do about it. Honestly, when I got back from my circumnavigation I though hard about keeping or selling the boat, and I might have made the wrong choice. With a proper bottom job forth coming (eventually if I can ever afford too) and rudder replacement, along with the work I have done this past year, I will have spent more in two years on the boat than what it is worth. I could have sold it, and in a couple years time had saved enough in mooring and monthly maintenance to buy a much nicer yacht and been ahead. I actually did do the math, and it worked out to my having $100k in cash in 5 years vs. keeping Eliana in good shape.

It's sad, but difficult for me to justify trying to maintain and own a boat of this vintage.
 
Warren: I feel for you. We all face this dilemma. But some of us have more resources (in my case, a spouse who worked until recently and made more than I did before I retired), so the trade-offs don't seem so hard.

I would only say: there are a lot of younger boats out there, even with reasonable reputations, that may not be as well made as they claim. They have "internal glass units" or even bulkheads that are glued, not tabbed, to the hull. They have lead or iron ballast hung off the bottom of the boat not with bronze bolts, but with stainless steel. (Terrible idea.)

You can check the rudder, as I did, by drilling some holes near where the steel plate joins the rudder post. I found some rust, but not on the welds themselves. If there is significant rusty water draining out of the bottom of the rudder, however, that would be concerning. I eventually bought a new rudder from Foss Foam, but they are not cheap.

I wish I could offer more. We are all in awe of your voyages. You are one impressive sailor. Hang in there.
 
Yeah, well who buys a boat because it is a good financial decision anyway? What made the choice for me to keep Eliana was 2 part. The first was that if I bought a $100k boat in 5 years, it would still need 3-5 years work before I really liked it. That would put my next cruise at 8-10 years from now. I am not going to play that game of always putting it off into the future. I have done a lot to Eliana that I really like, and continue that process, and mostly could go right now. My semi-firm date is this years Baja haha.

The second part is that life would surely get in the way, and in 5 years I wouldn't have 100k, I would be just as broke as I am now.

I was looking mostly at Bob Perry boats of about the same size and vintage. Well, built, faster/better sailing, and gorgeous interiors. Labor and Teak were both cheap in Taiwan, so the interiors are all solid teak with excellent craftsmanship, and no veneers. About 2x the cost of a Morgan, and seem to hold/grow value better. And not that the Morgan sails bad, but the keel shape with the holding tank in it does really slow it down and hurt pointing ability.

What is the inside composition of our rudders like? Is the filler too solid to cut or split the rudder to make a repair? My thoughts would be to either cut it in half, clean everything up, fix the welds/plates, and then glass it back together, maybe using foam instead of hard/heavy stuff. Or, if the hard stuff is too difficult to get out, then maybe remove a 2 square foot rectangle on one side, fix the welds and close it back up.

The reason I am thinking of a repair, is because there is a good boatyard in Fiji that isn't stupid expensive where I think they can do that type of work reasonably, and I expect to be hauling out there next. That will probably be where I finally strip all the paint and start over with new barrier coat. The only thing that would be difficult is shipping in a new rudder from the US.

My gut is that it is like yours, some rust maybe, but not the welds. I'm not even sure its coming from inside, as the shaft at the gudgeon was really rusty. I think the UHMW sheet that works great as a bushing also lets it rust. The rudder was standing next to the boat for a few days of rain, and there was rusty water on the ground after the rain.
 
I have gone through the same dilemma regarding our boats. The Morgan's are well built for the most part, and very nice. I don't have any point of reference as far as speed and offshore work. I've never raced Sonata. Although she did the Pac Cup some years before we owned her.

I am aware of our PHRF rating. Not terrible for a boat like her. I would LOVE to have a little more space down below.
I have Jonesed for boats such as the S&S Swan 44, Baltic, and Bob Perry designs. I went as far as Maine to look. But it would be the same as you point out.

Getting another boat up to snuf and the extra expense due to size, etc. I can't quite justify. Like you I can't do the time. I'm 66 and I need to be sailing.
Sonata is an incredible boat, and pretty much ready to go.
 Mitchell
 
Warren Holybee said:
Yeah, well who buys a boat because it is a good financial decision anyway? What made the choice for me to keep Eliana was 2 part. The first was that if I bought a $100k boat in 5 years, it would still need 3-5 years work before I really liked it. That would put my next cruise at 8-10 years from now. I am not going to play that game of always putting it off into the future. I have done a lot to Eliana that I really like, and continue that process, and mostly could go right now. My semi-firm date is this years Baja haha.

The second part is that life would surely get in the way, and in 5 years I wouldn't have 100k, I would be just as broke as I am now.

I was looking mostly at Bob Perry boats of about the same size and vintage. Well, built, faster/better sailing, and gorgeous interiors. Labor and Teak were both cheap in Taiwan, so the interiors are all solid teak with excellent craftsmanship, and no veneers. About 2x the cost of a Morgan, and seem to hold/grow value better. And not that the Morgan sails bad, but the keel shape with the holding tank in it does really slow it down and hurt pointing ability.

What is the inside composition of our rudders like? Is the filler too solid to cut or split the rudder to make a repair? My thoughts would be to either cut it in half, clean everything up, fix the welds/plates, and then glass it back together, maybe using foam instead of hard/heavy stuff. Or, if the hard stuff is too difficult to get out, then maybe remove a 2 square foot rectangle on one side, fix the welds and close it back up.

The reason I am thinking of a repair, is because there is a good boatyard in Fiji that isn't stupid expensive where I think they can do that type of work reasonably, and I expect to be hauling out there next. That will probably be where I finally strip all the paint and start over with new barrier coat. The only thing that would be difficult is shipping in a new rudder from the US.

My gut is that it is like yours, some rust maybe, but not the welds. I'm not even sure its coming from inside, as the shaft at the gudgeon was really rusty. I think the UHMW sheet that works great as a bushing also lets it rust. The rudder was standing next to the boat for a few days of rain, and there was rusty water on the ground after the rain.
Click to expand...
The interior of the rudder is hardened glass slurry of some sort. The plate is welded to the post at several points, but not along the whole post. I believe it would not be possible to split the rudder and rebuild it. The shell is effectively bonded to the interior because of its construction. I think water intrudes into the interior at the points where the post enters the rudder on top and at the gudgeon (unless there is shell damage). On the new Foss Foam rudders, they left a caulking indent around the post that they fill with 5200. I have a UHMW bushing as well. It has not caused rust. Like you, I would rather have a Perry Fairweather Mariner (WestSail) 39. Great offshore design. But I didn't find one when I was looking and it is too late now. Good luck.
 
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