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Differences between the 5' and 6' draft versions?

WindandCs

WindandCs

New Member
Hey Y'all,
So I'm reading a lot about these boats. I have only "been on" three of them, and they were on the hard. We are likely to end up with one of these boats, however they are all, at the present, unable to be sea trialed. All three are the shoal draft version. I have seen on this forum and spoken with a couple people that all suggest getting the deep draft version for our intended use,.. serious extended voyaging, ocean crossings. Several of the accounts I have read on this forum have been from people on serious crossings, both of the Atlantic and the Pacific. However I have been unable to determine whether they were on the shoal of deep draft boats. One of the accounts was from Bill Beach who crossed the Atlantic to Portugal via Bermuda, and the Azores. He encountered some pretty heavy conditions and was very happy with how the boat performed and how comfortable it was, I would love to know which version his boat is.

I would like to hear form you guys/girls about your experiences with either shoal or deep draft versions of the M382/3/4s. My assumptions would be the deep draft versions point a bit higher, but these boats already point pretty high. I'm wondering if the deep draft versions have better tracking abilities when the boat is off the wind, and whether the LPS is actually higher?

Thoughts, experiences?

Thanks ~ Curtis
 
WindandCs said:
Hey Y'all,
So I'm reading a lot about these boats. I have only "been on" three of them, and they were on the hard. We are likely to end up with one of these boats, however they are all, at the present, unable to be sea trialed. All three are the shoal draft version. I have seen on this forum and spoken with a couple people that all suggest getting the deep draft version for our intended use,.. serious extended voyaging, ocean crossings. Several of the accounts I have read on this forum have been from people on serious crossings, both of the Atlantic and the Pacific. However I have been unable to determine whether they were on the shoal of deep draft boats. One of the accounts was from Bill Beach who crossed the Atlantic to Portugal via Bermuda, and the Azores. He encountered some pretty heavy conditions and was very happy with how the boat performed and how comfortable it was, I would love to know which version his boat is.

I would like to hear form you guys/girls about your experiences with either shoal or deep draft versions of the M382/3/4s. My assumptions would be the deep draft versions point a bit higher, but these boats already point pretty high. I'm wondering if the deep draft versions have better tracking abilities when the boat is off the wind, and whether the LPS is actually higher?

Thoughts, experiences?

Thanks ~ Curtis
Click to expand...
 
There is a 382 for sale in Merritt Island Florida that claims a 7' draft. Not such a good boat for Florida and Bahamas.
 
I think I saw that one Gary. I believe it also had been converted to a spade rudder. Not such a good boat for much of anything with that configuration except going around the buoys as far as I'm concerned.
 
There weren't many of the 6' draft boats built. Since you are on the East coast and may someday take advantage of the ICW, the 5' draft might be a better choice. Just in the area of Deltaville, the 5' draft would be an advantage. The slightly shorter mast on the 382's will also be beneficial in the ICW as you can get under the 55' fixed bridges at Cape May canal, Ft Lauderdale, and Miami.
 
Hi Curtis -
I haven't seen any real numbers, but my guess would be that 90% of 382, 383, 384s have the 5 ft draft.

Per your question, I would say the boat's downwind tracking might have more to do with the rudder size. 383 & 384 have a larger rudder & many 382s have had their rudder sizes increased.

We took our Zia out into some serious ocean conditions this summer & we were very pleased with her performance. We have been out in the ocean a lot, but this was the first time on our Morgan. She tracked & handled winds/waves very well. I've got to say I'm happy with the 5 ft draft. This summer there were times when deeper draft vessels couldn't get out of our moorage, and we cruised right out. While that's more rare on the west coast, it happens a lot on the east coast.

I'm used to 'shoal' keels being more shallow & with bulbs or horizontal fins. I wouldn't call ours a shoal keel, and I think the official description is a modified fin keel? Something like that.
Cheers,
-Mark
 
Thanks Jim!, Yes, I have done the ICW from St. Augustine to Norfolk, so I'm familiar with the "limitations" of it. It was a blast! I am thinking the 5' is going to be the boat for us. As I said we are considering some serious off shore work, but from what I can tell the 5' boats are as good for this as the 6' considering their availability and some other info I just got from John English. There are a couple of boats hear in Deltaville as I mentioned, and I think we're going to get a great price on them, so it looks like we're gonna go for it. Thanks Jim!
 
Get a sailboat surveyor , and have a sea trial . No money unless sea trial ! I'm sure you understand.
 
Well that's just it Lee, there is no way to have a sea trial. All three of these boats are on the hard and not able to be sailed. I can check the engines and electronics or whatever there is for electronics, and have a survey, but that's it. One of the boats is in the middle of a complete refit. The other side is however, that one or two of the boats might be free, and the other will be... very affordable!
 
If the boat was not able to have a sea trial, the price should reflect that. Been looking at Morgans for a while now and haven't seen one that had a 6 foot draft, indicating to me that few were built. I think that the 5 foot draft boat will do fine off shore. Knew a couple that took it from Australia to florida and was heading home when I met them... They had no complaints about the boat.
 
Hey Bob, Yes I've talked with a member here that says he thinks most of the 6' boats were in the Bay area. There definitely weren't many of them built. And from talking with others who have been sailing them across the Atlantic, the 5' foot boats do well. One guy I talked with said when talking with Ted Brewer, that he said the 6' keel was supposed to make the boat stiffer, but it ended up making them slower. They also had to put in a bigger engine for which the weight wasn't accounted for in the original design, so they were stern heavy. They solved the problem by putting led ingots in the bow to bring them back to a level WL.

Yes by the way, the price for these boats is reflected in the price! :)
 
We had the situation of not being able to have the sea trial, I don't really know what happened as the broker was in the middle, but the boat was suddenly hauled, winterized and unrigged even though the seller knew we were serious and we had arranged for a survey, to include a sea trial, but they hauled the boat before he could get there. When he arrived they had even shrink wrapped it, so he did it anyway in the dry. The surveyor found out by almost accident that the boatyard riggers had condemned the Hyde furler, in writing to the seller. That wasn't revealed to the broker. The Hyde furler is a strange one today as there is no forestay and the furler is the structural tie that holds up the mast. So that would have been serious money to replace.
Foolishly I kept going, should have backed out then and there. But I am not rational at such times.
We tried to get the seller to agree to an escrow amount from the purchase price, to be held by the broker, and to be paid only in the spring when the boat had been launched and we could sea trial it. When the seller balked at that we finally backed out, too many warning flags flying.
I think the sea trial proves everything is there and working, or reveals what is not working. But it is not a detailed inspection of every item. Much of it you can see in the dry, but not everything, like that furler, and many things are marginal but still working.
In retrospect we found a better Morgan 382 that had quite a few upgrades and I'm glad it worked out the way.
My two lessons learned, though I don't intend to buy another: Be very objective and rational, there are lots of Morgan 38 boats on the market. The second is that a free boat is not free if it needs a lot of stuff. Especially for crossing oceans you will need a lot of equipment and refit items. If you have several boats to compare you have to add up the items you will need to spend on each, and the more expensive boat may have already had those and actually be cheaper in the long term. Boat owners like me and the PO poured money into this boat which will never sell for what is in them. You want to find one of those boats.
 
Interesting story Stephen. Glad to hear it worked out as it did.
So the boats we are looking at are pretty haggard inside. The hulls and decks look Pretty good at first sighting. I'll be sounding them and using the moisture meter throughout the entire boat should we go in that direction. Frankly, what I'm looking for is a good hull, deck, rig (not including standing rigging just the sticks) and interior. We're basically gonna refit the boat from stem to stern, and I'd rather have almost a blank slate, than tear up a decent boat trying to piece together a puzzle of wiring, mechanics, and gear.

The advice about being rational and objective is great advice. It would have been a problem before, but I've become very clear and focused in my search for a good boat, and have serious criteria in what I'm looking for, what I'll compromise on, and what I can affordably/practically change in a boat to make it work for us. One of the main reasons I've gotten serious about the M38s. Honestly, they weren't even on my list. I knew about them, but had ruled them out for some reason that I can't remember. It was an accident of sorts that they came back on my radar. And more coincidental that there happened to be several of them in the two boat yards near where we currently lay.

I've talked to everyone I could, to find out about the hull and deck, how they sail, and whether or not they could be true off shore passage makers. Once I was convinced that those criteria were met, I started to look at what I didn't like about the boats to see if I could affordably and practically change/rebuild/or do with out those things. So far,... and I've thrown a lot of boats out the window... the M38s are making the grade. And I'm no boat guru, I'm not! And I don't want to sound like I have my head up my butt either. I just know what standards I want my off shore boat to be built to. I know that we all have our idea of what that boat should be, and I really don't expect anyone to share my ideals. If I could afford PSC 40, a Bowman 40 or a V42 I would buy one in a heart beat. But I see a tremendous amount of potential in these boats at a seriously affordable price, even for one that's set up already. They are really affordable, and a lot of boat for the money. Plus...the owners forum is great! So active!
 
I have a 6 foot draft boat. I have no way to directly compare with 5footers, but I will say this: Ted Brewer told me that she might go to weather a little better than a 5foot draft boat, but it would be a tiny difference. He never told me the 6foot draft made them slower and I find that hard to credit. I do not believe the story of bigger engines. Plenty of 5foot boats have the bigger Perkins. So that has nothing to do,with draft. I am sure the 5foot boats have more than 120 degrees positive stability, old us sailing measurements confirm that, and that is the cut off for ocean going boats. Five foot drafT gives a little more flexibility in anchoring, but is one foot important? I don’t know. These are pretty good old boats, but they are not without flaws. Depends on how you will use a boat. We all say we want to sail around the world, but few of us ever actually do so.
 
Hey Terry,
Thanks for the reply. I can't speak to the stuff about the deeper draft, going slower, bigger engine. It would seem to me the deeper draft would point higher. If it was slower it couldn't be by much right?

My question to you is about the LPS rating of >120. What is the criteria that you know of that makes these LPS ratings higher. I would be very interested in finding that info.
Thanks Terry :)
 
WindandCs said:
Hey Terry,
Thanks for the reply. I can't speak to the stuff about the deeper draft, going slower, bigger engine. It would seem to me the deeper draft would point higher. If it was slower it couldn't be by much right?

My question to you is about the LPS rating of >120. What is the criteria that you know of that makes these LPS ratings higher. I would be very interested in finding that info.
Thanks Terry :)
Click to expand...
What are you referring to as LPS rating?
 
John, simply put it's how many degrees the boat can lean over before it "turtles". 110 deg. is generally considered a minimum for offshore work (if I recall correctly).
Old school designers (like Ted Brewer) usually were conservative in these matters.
A shoal draft Bene or Hunter, perhaps not so much.
 
dave_a said:
John, simply put it's how many degrees the boat can lean over before it "turtles". 110 deg. is generally considered a minimum for offshore work (if I recall correctly).
Old school designers (like Ted Brewer) usually were conservative in these matters.
A shoal draft Bene or Hunter, perhaps not so much.
Click to expand...
Okay...I thought that was “righting moment”...we lay Wild Oats in her side sometimes just to show new sailors it’s not going to go over. Then back to the usual 12-20 degrees depending on the breeze.
 
Hey guys, I think 120 deg. is the rule for off shore. "limit of positive stability" is what it is Dave, it's a pretty important number, but there are many other factors that can move that number higher or lower, that aren't necessarily considered when rendering that number. It's a guideline, but it should be taken seriously when considering a boat for off shore cruising... I don't like to say off shore "work"... I'm going cruising to "not work!" :)
 
Curtis, I have a 6' draft boat as well, have yet to do a lot of blue water sailing and as Terry mentioned I have had little time is a 5 footer. I do not feel it is slower, my guess is sort of the opposite. John in his Wild Oats and I are both currently on Lake Champlain. John has his boat set up for racing where I am always carrying full fuel, water, anchors and lots of "stuff" to make my weekends aboard comfortable. He and I had a bit of a run up the lake this summer and I was happy with how Namaste performed. He was faster and able to catch me but I was flying a smaller head sail than my normal 150. I have been in some weather off the coast of NJ, the boat sailed well with me then as a novice captain. The rudder has not been upsized, might consider that in the future. The engine is a Perkins 4-108, that makes 6 kn at 2200 RPM.
 
Hi David, cool, thanks for getting in on the post. Yes, I would think that the 6' boats would not be slower and would maybe point a bit better. I haven't been on either, but that's usually the case with the deeper draft. Unfortunately there just aren't many of the 6 footers out there, I think I would prefer one. But from what I hear the 5' boats point pretty high, I hear up to 35 deg. which is pretty damn good. It also seems as thought they sail as designed as the 5' version so I don't feel to terrible about getting one... or I wouldn't :) It looks like we're getting close to buying one at this point, so I'll keep the forum posted. Thanks again for posting your story.
 
I have never really measured how close my boat points toward the wind. However, because of apparent wind, I often look up at the Windex and it is pointing straight ahead and I’m still sailing. Mine is a 5’ version.
 
Hey Tom, Of course the apparent wind moves forward as boat speed increases. I don't know the formulas to calculate the ratios, but it's safe to say that if your apparent wind says the boat is going almost straight into it, you're sailing pretty darn close to true wind.
Thanks for that Tom!
 
Well first of all these boats don’t sail any closer than 29.8 degrees apparent to the wind. Thats really pushing it and those are Just mathematical calculations. More likely depending on the conditions 35-40 degrees aparent in rough water.
That’s not “pointing” contrary to popular belief ...real “pointing” is when sailing close hauled between two marks you have less leeway.

If you can sail two boats a distance of say 3-4 miles or more and arrive at the distant Mark closer than the other boat you have out pointed them. There is so much to all of this, VMG and more it’s why racing sailboats is often referred to as “chess on water”.

What’s the difference you ask? In a word...Leeway...Some boats may appear to be “pointing” higher or closer to the wind than you and indeed they may be but if they have a lot of sideslip or leeway they are not really pointing better just sailing closer to the wind than you. If you get there first closer to the mark...you pointed better not sailed closer to the wind.
Now throw in a 7-8’ deep draft thin keel appropriate sized rudder and you not only can sail close to the wind but “point” or track closer to you mark. JBoats, X Yachts etc.
Our Morgan’s are not pointers. They have fat keels with a longish chord.
But ...They are excellent “reachers”. Our Fat keels designed like the modified version that Brewer came up with have tremendous lift (because of induced drag) and the keel provides good directional stability for long distances without the constant steering fatigue from a “racing keel”. It’s on reaches we can make gains as well. We have all the polars and on paper it looks decent...we also have some very fancy laminate racing sails. It’s a real challenge to get any speed over 6.2 knots close hauled if sailing a proper VMG and course. We can hit 9 knots on a good reach...if the water is lumpy we can really make gains. All this and I don’t see much difference between the 5-6 foot drafts in these boats.
Dave’s boat sailed just fine...barbecues and all including a small headsail. I think they were actually sailing a little higher than us...great sailing boats for intended purpose.
 
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Yes John, well put. And answered my actual question, which I never really asked...which was how do the two keels compare in regards to leeway. For cruising that is what I'm concerned with. Not speed, not "pointing" ability. One of the reasons I discounted the Whitby 42. Beautiful and supposedly seaworthy boats, albeit slow. But they make bad leeway. Great explanation Dave, thanks!
 
If you foot off and make some speed you can minimize leeway. The 5' draft boat's not a pig by any means. It'll go to wind with other highly regarded cruising boats. But racing around bouys isn't its strong suit. Pinch up you lose speed and go sideways. Where as a thin fin keel just gives up speed when pinching.

When I'd do an 8 hour A to B sail, I'd plan for 5 deg. leeway. It would work out.
Plus don't forget you have a 50 hp Perkins. The boat is one hell of a motorsailor, with the diesel burning 1/2 gal an hour. If you're cruising great distances maybe you can't do that. But I found a ticking over diesel gave me tremendous windward ability. Made the keel act deeper, sheeting main & genny tight, I could pinch and sail at good speed very close to the wind. Instead of a 12 hr, tacking course, I could go (almost) straight at my destination.
Where ever I wanted to go, the winds on the nose! Could never figure out why.
 
WindandCs said:
Well that's just it Lee, there is no way to have a sea trial. All three of these boats are on the hard and not able to be sailed. I can check the engines and electronics or whatever there is for electronics, and have a survey, but that's it. One of the boats is in the middle of a complete refit. The other side is however, that one or two of the boats might be free, and the other will be... very affordable!
Click to expand...
Hi Curtis. I'm looking for just such a boat (free or very affordable). Where are you looking, if I may ask?
 
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