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Conversion to tiller

Is a tiller a viabal option on a M383

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WindandCs

WindandCs

New Member
Hey Y'all,... Well I'm expecting some controversial opinions on this topic, and I'm guessing most will be against this idea. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure where the emergency tiller comes into the cockpit, as we're just going to look at two 383s this weekend, but I definitely want to convert to tiller if possible.

So my query is;
1. Did any of the 38s come with a tiller?
2. Has anyone converted to tiller?
3. In your opinions, is the boat too heavy/balanced to be steered by tiller?

I've heard the emergency tiller is a quite contrived contraption on the 38s, but I feel a true tiller with a regular installation would function as any normal stock tiller installation. I also am thinking that the cockpit is long enough to have a tiller with enough leverage to work the boat, which I don't feel would be overly long anyway. I've been on some rather large boats with tillers that worked very well, some Pacific Seacraft 37s come with a tiller and work very well. Of course that doesn't mean a M38 will.

I will explain my position. Not big on wheels for off shore cruising. I like to have my boat as simple as possible, with as little to go wrong as can be. Also, a wind vane works considerably better with a tiller. I know the guys at Monitor have the wheel set available and it works well with a wheel, and I've seen the installation, but IMHO they are still better served attached to a tiller, and I think they agree. Again, more simple, less to go wrong, not as much play in the rig to a tiller as the wheel, and way more room in the cockpit without a wheel, especially at anchor. I think a cockpit with as much room to move around in without obstacles, especially in a seaway makes for a far safer boat.

Our current boat has rack and pinion steering, and while very nice, it can still malfunction easier than a tiller connected right to a rudder post.

Anyway, that is my new thread. I'm not really interested in a debate about the merits of either, just interested in Y'all's opinions about the ability to make the conversion, how you feel the boat will behave in front of a tiller, and can the boat be safely handled with a tiller.

Thanks Y'all, I'm, looking forward to a lively conversation about these great boats!

Peace ~ Curtis
 
I would think the conversion would be fairly easy. The rudder post is directly beneath the aft cockpit seat. The difficulty with an emergency tiller is extending it high enough to clear the seat, and that the wheel pedestal doesn't allow it to come forward very far. With the pedestal gone, just cut out the seat to the floor, and bolt on a tiller. Finish it so it looks nice, but I don't think there is any difficult engineering.

The boat balances very well, and can be sailed without much steering if you have the right sail trim. On almost any upwind point of sail, I don't even use my monitor. I just set the wheel brake and it will hold forever, even follow wind changes or come back into the groove if a gust turns the boat briefly. Downwind requires steering input, but not a lot of leverage, just correction.
 
Thank you Warren, that's really nice to hear! Our boat is the same on any windward point of sail, but she tends to veer whenever the wind gets after the beam. I have been reading that the M38s especially the 382s before the rudder enlargement, don't track well when the wind gets behind the beam. Have you found that to be the case? That's really the only thing I've heard that's not so great about the boats.
 
Interesting John, thanks. A baring could probably be made for the stuffing box? Something to look into.
 
Just thinking a little more about the baring, no baring probably doesn't matter right, there is no more motion within the stuffing box with a tiller, than a wheel, the post still goes through that stuffing box with either arrangement I'm thinking?
 
Having a 384 if it were me i would wait and remove the wheel say after the next haul out. That should give you time to hate or love the wheel . Im sure your crossing oceans after you know the boat ? ! There are wheels that fold . But i relize your concern is the wind vane. Talk to Rolf , He has done the whole east coast with a vane and wheel .
Myself i still love a tiller , alot more feel . With a large boat and large waves the pressure might be to great , Better hope the vane cant fail !
 
Oh for sure Lee! We won't be making the conversion till after we get to know the boat... if we end with it? But as you say, the tiller just has more feel, and I believe they are much more reliable and safer than a wheel. Well, they are, pretty much in all situations, and they leave so much more room in the cockpit. I think everyone got hung up on wheels because they were so novel, looked cool, and they were a "modern" up grade to the family cruising boat... made them feel more like a "ship". But they aren't ships, they're boats. With small cockpits, small cabins, small storage space, and small sails, and they can be handled quite easily with a tiller. A safer, more reliable, more simple machine, that offers safety in it's simplicity and unclutteredness... if that's word? :)

And as far as the vane failing, well they do fail sometimes. Sometimes the vanes break off ( you carry spares and different sizes for varying wind speeds), or a gear sheers, but that doesn't matter because... you still have a tiller! If your vane is hooked up to your wheel, and a wheel cable snaps, or a sheave fails, which happens, you're screwed! Imagine that in a big seaway, scrounging for your emergency tiller, that no one has ever bothered to practice setting up. So dangerous. No wheel for this guy! A good friend of mine was in the Queens Birthday storm aboard "Pilot" a Westsail 32. Tiller steered of course. Out board rudder. He steered by Aries the whole time almost...out of the weather (100knt winds, 60 to 80 ft. seas) and when he did finally have to go out and hand steer, he was able to tuck up behind the coach roof coaming instead of being stuck in the stern behind a wheel. If steering by wheel and a sheave had given way in seas like that... well you can imagine.

It sounds like the conversion won't be too difficult from what Warren has said. we're going to look at the boats today and tomorrow, so I"m pretty stoked. They've both been sitting for a good while, so they could be trashed, but hopefully not. I'll keep ya posted.

Thanks Lee!
 
Curtis,
I've had my boat since 9-1-78
From what I remember in a phone conversation with Ted Brewer years ago was that inspiration for the rudder was from an S&S design which was not successful. My friend had a Cal40 that would track with everything up off the wind with no effort. I literally hated to steer my boat after that. You may remember the late Carl Schumacher NA (Express line (27, 34, 37), the Alerion-Express line (20, 28, 38), and the Capo 30 (which later became the Olson 911-S) and 26.) His office was ion the estuary in Alameda, CA. I approached him with my problem and he graciously agreed to work out a solution. it's 1-ft deeper than the original. Here's a pic 17 years later on it's way out for a new bottom.
We could not be happier.........no bad habits.
Coastie is a 6-ft boat.
 

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Maluhia, also a Bay Area boat, also has deeper rudder but not the forward balanced part Coastal Starlight has under the Skeg. I think it was also a Schumacher design. Jim Ball’s boat, he hasn’t been on the site for a while. I have a 382 with a rudder somewhat like the 384. She doesn’t track quite as well as I would like, but we just sailed 10,000 miles with a Monitor and were very happy. Mostly downwind or reaching. A 382 is a jib driven boat and you have to be prepared to reef the main to create necessary balance. No one has ever reported a wheel or quadrant failure on this site. The Edson system is simple, robust, well regarded and easy to rebuild, which we did before we went off shore. If I were in conditions such as the Queen’s birthday, I would be towing a series drogue and the rudder would be irrelevant.
 
Aye, so it's a sea story ya want?
In 1978 #75 came with an "Orion" brand pedestal, quadrant and push pull cables. In 1980 I was single handing coming back from from the Opening Day celebration on SF bay from the Alameda estuary to Pittsburg via the Sacramento river. This was the first time sails had ever been hoisted. Prior to that it had only been motored. It was an overcast blustery spring day with a freshet and a flood tide (aka square waves) and I had up a new 155! After about the 4th round up in a Carquinez straights the cables pulled though the spiral wrapped sheath and disabled all helm input. (This was a really bad design). I was able to get the 155 down about the time an inbound fully laden freighter gave me 4 ominous blasts. Some how I was able to rig the emergency tiller, and start the engine and avoid contact with the shore or the freighter and limp in to the nearby Glen Cove Marina and regain my composure. I'm certain that it was the customary blessing that is given on opening day that saved the boat. The Edson replacement (circumferentially wrapped) cables have worked ever since.
 
Hey Guys, so thanks for the responses.
Yes John, I've seen pics of your boat on google images, it looks like a great fix! nice job too! For us we want to maintain the protection of the skegg. We are intending to be using this boat for some extended cruising, North Atlantic, South America, South Pacific perhaps?.. but definitely to some diving locals where protection from reefs is important. Not to mention all the debris in the oceans these days. I know lots of people say "well you still have a keel in front of the rudder" but I know of several stories where a cruiser was diving on a reef, a squall came up, and they dragged anchor up on to the reef damaging the skegg but the rudder survived. SV Delos for one. For me, it's simply something I won't leave the dock without. I mean we've all heard stories of boats losing the rudder from hitting something, it happens, it's a real thing. Last winter I know of a guy making a delivery from Hawaii to Cali with a spade rudder, hit "something"... rudder gone, huge hole in the boat, had to get rescued. Which they did after something like 36 hrs of hand bailing because the water was pouring in faster than the bilge pumps (manual and electric) could keep up with. I know another guy from the bay area that made the same modification as you did. His name is Adam, he's over here on the east coast now. Do you know him?

Great story by the way John!! Glad to hear you got out unscathed! Also glad to hear you were able to dig out and assemble the emergency tiller so quickly! Good on ya!! I do know the Edson equipment is very good and dependable as well, but something inside of me says... go tiller! And so I shall. I may even have a custom post made that extends from the cockpit all the way through the rudder so there is not joint in the run.

Terry, it's good to hear moving to the 384 rudder has maybe helped a bit. The boat we are looking at is a 382 with the rudder mod to the 384 version. It's very good to hear that she can run in front of a monitor well, and that you were happy with that arrangement. I'm curious, how hard do you think the monitor had to work to keep her on bearing? Yes you are correct about the rudder being useless when towing a drogue, and I too would be either towing a drogue or lying to a sea anchor. In that particular storm it appears the people that towed drogues didn't fair so well. Apparently no one hove to a para anchor, but one of the accounts I read in the Drag Device Data Base suggested that would be their tactic if they were to ever be in such a storm again. Their drogue failed... they got launched off a huge wave I believe. You might be interested in this website, it's a fantastic website full of actual accounts of people using drogues and para anchors on fishing vessels, mono hulls, and multi hulls. It also has some great scientific explanations of the dynamics of water movement. Fascinating. http://dragdevicedb.com/

We looked at a couple of 382s this past weekend. Both were in pretty bad shape inside, but the hulls were good. We could them both for free, and are considering that, but don't want to pay the storage at this point. then to get rid of the one used as the parts boat would be almost impossible. further investigation is needed :0
 
My boat is a 383 with the taller mast/shorter boom, but built early enough that it had the 382 rudder (w/o the factory mod to add area to the top of the rudder).
The stock rudder really isn't a problem. Long before it causes a round up you can feel it starting to slip & cavitate. It tells you to shorten sail. If you have a tiller, one would have to be inexperienced to let it go too long before reefing (in my opinion at least)
If you're racing where over canvassed is a way of life, John's rudder is to die for and a 6' keel would be great. What's Bob Perry's saying? " Don't cut the balls off the boat!"
I had a boat with a 6' keel. (A good thing it was made of lead, and a long chord at the hull). I specifically shopped for 5' draft when I bought the Morgan for Lake Ontario. In the Chesapeake??? 5' all day long. My boat came from Oxford.
Curtis - one of my favorite things is sitting across the helmsmen's seat, back to leeward watching the jib telltales. Steering with one foot on the wheel. Keeping the jib driving the boat. The wife to sitting up to windward keeping an eye for crossing traffic. Hours and hours of sailing bliss crossing the big lake. Don't discount the wheel if serviceable. Good place to mount a cockpit table too.
 
Hey Dave :)
After talking with a couple different peeps on here, I'm hearing the sail trim is the key to keep the boat on track when running. sounds like shortening the main is the key. Which is really the key with all the more modern jib driven boats I would say. We've run across a couple of 382s that we can get for a song, albeit they both need a ton of interior work. The hulls and deck at first look are pretty sound.

You know, I like a wheel too. My last boat, a Rhodes 32 (Chesapeake) was a tiller and I love the feel. Our current boat is a Contest 31, with a rack and pinion wheel system, and it's really nice. I like it as it's novel to me, I grew up with tillers on Lightnings. It's especially easy around the dock. But I still prefer a tiller. And since we're looking to this boat for some serious voyaging, running before an Aries or a Monitor, the tiller is going to the way to go for us. Doing crossings, you're not really at the helm too much, and the wind vanes steer a tiller better, and I think the tiller translates the feel of the ocean even to the cabin when the helm isn't manned. For day sailing and short trips I am liking the wheel however.

We are also looking at a 382 that is in the middle of a refit. The job so far has been well done, but the people are abandoning the project as life has taken them elsewhere. One of the things they did was change/rebuild the rudder to the 383. I don't believe they've changed the mast and boom... and the traveler yet, but that will be something we would definitely do! One of the things I like so much about the tiller is when you're laying on the hook somewhere, it lifts out of the cockpit. So with the tiller... and the traveler out of the cockpit it'll be a ball room! :) I'll have to figure out a table somehow!
 
My advice would be to look carefully at the forward bulkhead for damage from water intrusion. Look in the head cabinet facing aft. There's a panel in there. The old plastic ports leak and destroy the bulkhead. A chain plate ties in there and on port its hidden by the head module. It can look ok if you pull the lamp box off from the salon side. A bugger to repair. No surveyor will ever dig that deep!
These "free" old boats can cost you so much time and money you may be better off paying more for a boat that's been taken care of and is functional. I mean do you want to work or sail? Life's too short if you ask me. Good luck.
 
Sound advice Dave! That is something I will look at for sure! Any other areas of concern you might be able to lead me to would be greatly appreciated.

We have a 4 yr plan to cast off. Getting "a bit" of a fixer upper at a good price is really the best bet for us. That said, we don't want to get into any structural repairs/work. Rotted bulkheads are a no go for us! Rewiring, new lighting, strong, sound ground tackle system, steerage, new rig of course before we go, engine, water maker, refrigeration,.. all the systems I'm going to build or rebuild before departure, plus some custom things that I won't go off shore without. But structural work such as bulkheads, or major delam is a no go. Thanks again for that tip!
 
Agree with Dave...
All too often “the best laid plans” ...life is short. Can’t tell you how many times people we knew who worked long and hard on something, houses, boats, projects...only to find themselves unable to live their dream because of an accident, died of cancer, heart attacks, divorce, etc. find a balance that work’s.
 
Agreed Dave!! Actually the peeps with cheap boat that's in the middle of the refit jumped ship. I've seen it all too often as well. However this is where we lay. We're 1 yr in to a 5 yr plan. Work, cruising kitty, a dog that is definitely not going cruising, are all factors in our time frame. So there's time to do what we need to do. That said, I want a good foundation from which to start. We simply can't afford a cruising boat "ready to go" which there isn't really such a thing anyway. I'm also excited to build another off shore boat, that parts fun too. But I'm not one of these peeps that makes a canvas bag for my canvas winch covers! :) When it's time to untie the lines we will. We're chomping at the bit to leave. If we had plenty of $ we would. We're gonna build a serious boat! Can't leave now anyway. If I die before I can cast off... I'll have bigger things to worry about :)
 
If a Morgan 38 is in my future (888 days to go!) then a tiller is on my list for her. I like the feel of a tiller, as my first boat (Nor'sea 27) had one and I liked it. I also like the fact you can get it out of the way when at anchor to open up the cockpit. Sure you can take a wheel off, but the pedestal is still there....
Other mods I am thinking of is to remove the head and put a pullman berth there, then put a composting head where the chart table is. Close off the quarter berth for more storage. Close off the Vberth forward of the pullman for storage, accessed from the deck hatch. Would probably wait for most of that till I get to Thailand or the Philippines and have the work done there. By the time I get there I will know for sure if its what I want or not.
Still, would not want a boat that did not show and survey well. As was said life is to short. If my 403b has more money in it than planned, then I might go with a West Sail 43 or a Tatoosh 42 or Slocom 42... but still leaning towards the Morgan.
 
“I'm expecting some controversial opinions on this topic”
Kind of funny...seems like you already have your mind made up...
 
I feel the need to pitch in on this question of converting to a tiller. Steering a boat with a tiller is wonderful. The touch of the tiller in your hand, the reaction of the boat to the smallest push or pull. I love the feel of a tiller. But there is also the reality of making a Morgan38 into a tiller steered boat.

The rudder stock is buried in the wheel locker and the shaft ends inside that locker. To attach a tiller, without replacing the rudder with one with a longer shaft, you would have to modify the top and front of the locker. That locker is open to the interior of the boat. Somehow the rudder shaft would have to be sealed with a gland to keep the water out from above. Then how would you access the spaces in that locker to the right and left of the shaft. I'm sure an innovative person with good fiberglassing skills could devise something. But would it be worth the cost?

Then there is the issue of how much room you will have in the cockpit when not sailing. That is true, but think about the room you won't have in the cockpit when you are sailing. If the room at anchor is a problem, the Edson company makes a handy little gizmo that allows you to remove the wheel and secure it on the stern rail.

The third thing is the rudder itself. Hanging behind the skeg is a large unbalanced barn door. Try hanging on to a tiller for 7-8 hours in a big following sea with that arrangement. If you can find a tiller on a boat as large and heavy as our Morgans, you will find it drives a well balanced rudder. I've had this discussion with Naval Architect Chuck Paine. He has developed a balanced rudder that works for a full keel aft hung rudder. But unless the boat is designed and built with that configuration in mind, it's just too cost prohibitive.

So, while I agree that a tiller would be nice. In reality, it's just not practical on our Morgans.

Jim
 
Right on Jim...well said...there are other boats designed with tillers...the old sea captains couldn’t wait for a wheel...I also have sailed both extensively ...I do like the feel of a tiller...but that’s another story...lol...I’m sure it’s doable but don’t know if it’s worth it on a boat designed this way. Maybe we will find out. :) everyone has a right to try something new...my gosh look at those keels on the Volvo ocean racers... :)
 
John

Look at the new design the New Zealanders have come up with for the AC75's. Port & Stbd articulating wings and NO keel at all. So much for going back to having the sailors just sailing the race. I think they should retire the name "America's Cup".

Jim
 
jimcleary said:
John

Look at the new design the New Zealanders have come up with for the AC75's. Port & Stbd articulating wings and NO keel at all. So much for going back to having the sailors just sailing the race. I think they should retire the name "America's Cup".

Jim
Click to expand...
That’s for sure...Peter Isler wrote a whole story on the new tech entering into calculating and navigating the vessels...even trimming the sails adjusting ballast ...who needs to even be on the boat? Know one! Like driverless cars on water...not much fun
 
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