Suddenly my cabin lights all stopped working. Today I started troubleshooting to find the problem. Does anyone who has done some rewiring, or anyone who has some in depth knowledge of the cabin lights wiring system, know where the crossover to the port side lights takes place ? The major wiring seems to originate along the starboard side with a wiring crossover to the port side cabin lights at some point.
Cabin lights
- Thread starter bwilliams
- Start date
jesse_garman
Jesse Garman
Having rewired my boat last spring. My 'crossover' occured at the mast partners and for what it is worth this is where the one instance of corrosion occured. But if all of the lights failed it sounds like a look behind the panel would be a good place to start.
Bill - I re-wired most of my boat last spring as well, everything but a few cabin lights. Reason I didn't do them was that 1) the lights were all working fine, and 2) it would have meant taking off the overhead cabin liner, and I was already very deep into just about every other part of the boat (engine compartment, hanging locker, mast boot, head sink compartment, electronics locker in front of the nav table, etc). I also found the electrical panel had to be replaced.
As I recall, the wiring for the cabin lights went from the panel to the bus under the nav table, and from there to the hanging locker just forward of the nav table, down through the chase that runs forward to the right of the sole, exiting in the small locker across from the mast boot. This was a real pain to work with, b/c all the wires that used this chase (holding tank indicator light, shower sump pump, cabin lights, mast wiring, antenna, etc) were taped or cable-tied together every foot or so. I ended up cutting all the wires, and pulling out all of them, then re-running new boat cable (with jackets) the length of the run.
A good trick is to disconnect the boat batteries, and use the bus panel under the nav table as a source of power - rig together enough D size batteries in series to get a 12 volt system (you can buy battery holders at Radio Shack), then wire this battery to the cabin lights post on the panel bus (I believe it's position "B"). If the lights then work, you know the problem is from the bus to the electrical panel (probably just a bad switch). If they still don't work, you have a bigger challenge, but I don't see why they all would fail.
One warning - DO NOT USE THE BOAT'S SHORE POWER WHILE DOING THIS WORK! Instead, rig up a dockside extension cord with a worklight, rather than using the ship's shore power connections. Reason is that the AC power bus panel is right next to the DC power panel. One slip and you could be off to that great marina in the sky. Whenever I worked on the electrical, everything was completely disconnected - I even had the batteries off the boat, and used the 8 "D" size batteries for testing (using a voltmeter, ammeter and ohm-meter).
Good luck!
As I recall, the wiring for the cabin lights went from the panel to the bus under the nav table, and from there to the hanging locker just forward of the nav table, down through the chase that runs forward to the right of the sole, exiting in the small locker across from the mast boot. This was a real pain to work with, b/c all the wires that used this chase (holding tank indicator light, shower sump pump, cabin lights, mast wiring, antenna, etc) were taped or cable-tied together every foot or so. I ended up cutting all the wires, and pulling out all of them, then re-running new boat cable (with jackets) the length of the run.
A good trick is to disconnect the boat batteries, and use the bus panel under the nav table as a source of power - rig together enough D size batteries in series to get a 12 volt system (you can buy battery holders at Radio Shack), then wire this battery to the cabin lights post on the panel bus (I believe it's position "B"). If the lights then work, you know the problem is from the bus to the electrical panel (probably just a bad switch). If they still don't work, you have a bigger challenge, but I don't see why they all would fail.
One warning - DO NOT USE THE BOAT'S SHORE POWER WHILE DOING THIS WORK! Instead, rig up a dockside extension cord with a worklight, rather than using the ship's shore power connections. Reason is that the AC power bus panel is right next to the DC power panel. One slip and you could be off to that great marina in the sky. Whenever I worked on the electrical, everything was completely disconnected - I even had the batteries off the boat, and used the 8 "D" size batteries for testing (using a voltmeter, ammeter and ohm-meter).
Good luck!
duane_thompson
Duane Thompson
Hi Bill,
Does the cabin light breaker switch trip? I would start by checking that, then checking for shorts from there. First would be the cigarette type receptacle. Then remove all light bulbs and see if it still trips.
Does the cabin light breaker switch trip? I would start by checking that, then checking for shorts from there. First would be the cigarette type receptacle. Then remove all light bulbs and see if it still trips.
Problem solved. Corrosion on the load side of the cabin light circuit breaker.When I removed the electrical panel from it's mounting, the lights suddenly came on again. I then started feeling the connections on the breaker and found the load side connection was getting hot. Cleaned the contacts, and no more heat build up. Cleaned all the other breaker contacts also. Probably the first time in Sno Virgin's 30 years that this has been done. Anyway, thanks for the input. I know that not too far down the road a complete rewiring is in the works.
Matt,
I did the same thing you did, and found an alarming number of splices and butt-connectors in all circuits. It was as if the boat had been wired from scraps. The section under the nav-station that is accesible from a panel inside the nav-station is actually handy, but a little tight.
Anyway, I bit the bullet and bought a new breaker panel. Since the new panel has more switches I added a couple of buss bars in the nav-station and wired the breakers to them even though the (upcoming) equipment is not installed. Then, I moved the AC bus bars as far away from the DC section as possible, just to feel a little better about it.
My AC electrical system works OK at the panel/buss bars, but only one outlet is working, in the galley. Have you had any problems with the AC electrical? Did you rewire/replace any AC stuff?
Tim
I did the same thing you did, and found an alarming number of splices and butt-connectors in all circuits. It was as if the boat had been wired from scraps. The section under the nav-station that is accesible from a panel inside the nav-station is actually handy, but a little tight.
Anyway, I bit the bullet and bought a new breaker panel. Since the new panel has more switches I added a couple of buss bars in the nav-station and wired the breakers to them even though the (upcoming) equipment is not installed. Then, I moved the AC bus bars as far away from the DC section as possible, just to feel a little better about it.
My AC electrical system works OK at the panel/buss bars, but only one outlet is working, in the galley. Have you had any problems with the AC electrical? Did you rewire/replace any AC stuff?
Tim
Tim -
For the AC, I put in new outlets with Ground Fault Indicators, but left the original wiring for the AC outlets (they tested okay, and would have been difficult to replace). I put in new wiring from the shore power outlet at the stern, put in a new marine-grade kill switch (located under the cockpit coaming), and put in new wiring for the (new) battery charger. The hot water heater wiring was only 2 years old, so I kept that intact as well.
For the AC, I put in new outlets with Ground Fault Indicators, but left the original wiring for the AC outlets (they tested okay, and would have been difficult to replace). I put in new wiring from the shore power outlet at the stern, put in a new marine-grade kill switch (located under the cockpit coaming), and put in new wiring for the (new) battery charger. The hot water heater wiring was only 2 years old, so I kept that intact as well.
It's easy to replace the five outlets. You can get the components at Home Depot. Be sure to get them with a GFI. Mine also have an indicator light that glows when the outlet is "live".
I also found loose wires from the stern. Additionally, the wiring was type 2 and untinned (type 2 is stranded, but with thicker strands - and thus, more easily corroded).
If you do re-wire, pay very close attention to the necessary gauge when pulling cable and attaching ring terminals. I think the original specs were 8 gauge, from the plug-in point to the kill switch/circuit breaker to the electrical panel. Use shrink-wrapped terminal ends as well... I bought most of my wiring supplies from http://www.genuinedealz.com, which had a great selection and the most competitive prices.
Lastly, the wiring run goes from the stern straight back to the electrical panel, and is relatively easy to snake by removing the overhead liner in the quarter berth. The most difficult part is to get it past the tight squeeze just behind the nav table.
I also found loose wires from the stern. Additionally, the wiring was type 2 and untinned (type 2 is stranded, but with thicker strands - and thus, more easily corroded).
If you do re-wire, pay very close attention to the necessary gauge when pulling cable and attaching ring terminals. I think the original specs were 8 gauge, from the plug-in point to the kill switch/circuit breaker to the electrical panel. Use shrink-wrapped terminal ends as well... I bought most of my wiring supplies from http://www.genuinedealz.com, which had a great selection and the most competitive prices.
Lastly, the wiring run goes from the stern straight back to the electrical panel, and is relatively easy to snake by removing the overhead liner in the quarter berth. The most difficult part is to get it past the tight squeeze just behind the nav table.
Matt,
Five outlets? I only have two, one in the galley and one in the head. Where are the other two? I wonder if I have unused AC electrical cable somewhere. I have had the quarter berth headliner off and the shore power wires are easy to find. Eight gage sounds about right from my visual inspection. I always use ring terminals, and I found a shrink terminal that I really like. I like genuinedealz and now buy everything electrical from them.
Tim
Five outlets? I only have two, one in the galley and one in the head. Where are the other two? I wonder if I have unused AC electrical cable somewhere. I have had the quarter berth headliner off and the shore power wires are easy to find. Eight gage sounds about right from my visual inspection. I always use ring terminals, and I found a shrink terminal that I really like. I like genuinedealz and now buy everything electrical from them.
Tim
In addition to the ones in the head and galley, I have outlets at the aft end of the pilot berth, one on the aft end of the open cubby on the port side above the settee and the fifth is in the forward cabin on the stbd side inside above the hanging locker.
Our boat is a M382 built in 1981.
-Alan
Our boat is a M382 built in 1981.
-Alan
Alan,
My previous post shows that I can't add. I'm three outlets short not two! The previous owner had installed a TV/VCR on the starboard side by removing a cabinet door. It looks like he sacrificed an outlet there for the TV. I removed the (very old) TV and the wiring. As far as the V-berth and the pilot berth, there is no evidence that an outlet ever existed in either place. I suppose when I get into it I can outlets anywhere I want.
Matt
Good point about the GFI version of AC outlet, particularly on a boat. The existing outlet in the galley and head are both GFI, but only the one in the galley works. The outlet in the head is badly corroded. I think I might replace it with one of those weatherproof outlets that go on the outside of a house/patio.
Tim
My previous post shows that I can't add. I'm three outlets short not two! The previous owner had installed a TV/VCR on the starboard side by removing a cabinet door. It looks like he sacrificed an outlet there for the TV. I removed the (very old) TV and the wiring. As far as the V-berth and the pilot berth, there is no evidence that an outlet ever existed in either place. I suppose when I get into it I can outlets anywhere I want.
Matt
Good point about the GFI version of AC outlet, particularly on a boat. The existing outlet in the galley and head are both GFI, but only the one in the galley works. The outlet in the head is badly corroded. I think I might replace it with one of those weatherproof outlets that go on the outside of a house/patio.
Tim
The five outlets I have match what Alan has.
My three port outlets are wired in series, as are the two starboard outlets. For this reason, I only needed two GFIs at the start of the series (one in the galley, one on the stern bulkhead of the pilot's berth). Note that any outlet wired to a GFI is similarly protected, ASSUMING YOU'VE WIRED IT CORRECTLY! It's not difficult, but you can't just wire it up without looking for LOAD and LINE, and wiring it appropriately. To not do so means the GFI will not operate correctly (which puts you at risk of life).
My head outlet was so badly corroded that I had to take out the entire box, and replaced it with a plastic box. Why in the world did Morgan use standard steel junction boxes? That would never pass ABYC standards today...
My three port outlets are wired in series, as are the two starboard outlets. For this reason, I only needed two GFIs at the start of the series (one in the galley, one on the stern bulkhead of the pilot's berth). Note that any outlet wired to a GFI is similarly protected, ASSUMING YOU'VE WIRED IT CORRECTLY! It's not difficult, but you can't just wire it up without looking for LOAD and LINE, and wiring it appropriately. To not do so means the GFI will not operate correctly (which puts you at risk of life).
My head outlet was so badly corroded that I had to take out the entire box, and replaced it with a plastic box. Why in the world did Morgan use standard steel junction boxes? That would never pass ABYC standards today...
Rich -
You are correct - I checked on this. AC outlets are always wired in parallel, or else they would not work. However, when wiring GFI to protect more than one outlet, the GFI has labels for LINE and LOAD, so that the tripping mechanism will work for any of the outlets. That's what led to my confusion, since the GFI will only protect outlets wired after them (LOAD).
You are correct - I checked on this. AC outlets are always wired in parallel, or else they would not work. However, when wiring GFI to protect more than one outlet, the GFI has labels for LINE and LOAD, so that the tripping mechanism will work for any of the outlets. That's what led to my confusion, since the GFI will only protect outlets wired after them (LOAD).
All it would mean is that nothing would work unless there was something plugged into each outlet on the port or starboard side, with each device in the ON position, right? That would be pretty confusing, no doubt!
To correct myself, the three port outlets are wired in PARALLEL, as are the two starboard outlets, with the GFI being the first outlet from the electrical panel. If the GFI trips, all the other outlets will not work. I put little "GFI Protected" stickers on all the outlets to reflect this.
To correct myself, the three port outlets are wired in PARALLEL, as are the two starboard outlets, with the GFI being the first outlet from the electrical panel. If the GFI trips, all the other outlets will not work. I put little "GFI Protected" stickers on all the outlets to reflect this.
Thanks guys! I found similar results onliine with diagrams etc. The interesting thing about GFI (now known as GFCI) is that they trip with as little as a 5 milliamp current difference between the "hot" and "commom" sides of the circuit. Pretty cool. What still has me scratching my head is why I only ended up with three outlets (counting the old TV) instead of five. I guess these boats are all a little unique.
Tim
Tim
jose santin
Member
I suggest that you buy a cheap outlet test cube and plug it into all of your outlets, this will verify that all outlets are wired correctly.
AC wiring consists of three conductors, the black one is the "hot", the white one is the "common", and the green is "ground" . If you put an AC voltmeter btween the black and white you will read 110v, if you put the voltmeter between black and green you will read 110v, if you place the voltmeter between white and green you should read close to 0v.
If you switch black and white, the appliance will probably still work but you have just created a dangerous shock hazard.
As a side note, the ABYC changed the DC ground color from black to yellow to avoid confusing DC ground with AC "hot"
Jose
AC wiring consists of three conductors, the black one is the "hot", the white one is the "common", and the green is "ground" . If you put an AC voltmeter btween the black and white you will read 110v, if you put the voltmeter between black and green you will read 110v, if you place the voltmeter between white and green you should read close to 0v.
If you switch black and white, the appliance will probably still work but you have just created a dangerous shock hazard.
As a side note, the ABYC changed the DC ground color from black to yellow to avoid confusing DC ground with AC "hot"
Jose
Alan,
As it turns out the outlet in the head actually does work even though it is badly corroded. I have not replaced it yet, but I will soon. I never did find an outlet in the quarter berth, and I am not sure I need one there anyway. There is an outlet in the V-berth that I missed. Its above the locker under the port pretty far back.
Jose,
Your info about wiring color is, of course, correct. I found an outlet on the starboard side center inside a locker with the black wire connected to ground which explains why it never worked. I still have a sore spot on my hand from that little adventure. The original owner's manual is still on the boat and has a wiring diagram. It's not much but it helped. I took all the outlets apart an made sure they were wired correctly. Now they all work including the GFCI.
Tim
As it turns out the outlet in the head actually does work even though it is badly corroded. I have not replaced it yet, but I will soon. I never did find an outlet in the quarter berth, and I am not sure I need one there anyway. There is an outlet in the V-berth that I missed. Its above the locker under the port pretty far back.
Jose,
Your info about wiring color is, of course, correct. I found an outlet on the starboard side center inside a locker with the black wire connected to ground which explains why it never worked. I still have a sore spot on my hand from that little adventure. The original owner's manual is still on the boat and has a wiring diagram. It's not much but it helped. I took all the outlets apart an made sure they were wired correctly. Now they all work including the GFCI.
Tim
Tim -
There is no outlet in the quarter berth - but there should be one in the pilot's berth, that small berth above the starboard settee, which most use for gear storage... which must be the one you found (your locker originally was a berth - see some pics on the photo gallery).
It's somewhat scary that it was mis-wired, especially as it would create a dangerous shock hazard as Jose pointed out. That cheap outlet test cube can be had for about $10 at Home Depot - I used it on the boat to verify the wires, but also used it around the house and found that the contractor who did our recent kitchen overhaul had mis-wired two outlets. Worth every penny!
Matt
There is no outlet in the quarter berth - but there should be one in the pilot's berth, that small berth above the starboard settee, which most use for gear storage... which must be the one you found (your locker originally was a berth - see some pics on the photo gallery).
It's somewhat scary that it was mis-wired, especially as it would create a dangerous shock hazard as Jose pointed out. That cheap outlet test cube can be had for about $10 at Home Depot - I used it on the boat to verify the wires, but also used it around the house and found that the contractor who did our recent kitchen overhaul had mis-wired two outlets. Worth every penny!
Matt
Matt,
I misunderstood the term Pilot Berth thinking quarter berth. What does the test cube do that my multimeter does not do?
Jim,
I assume you don't mean a breaker on the dock. The only master breaker that I am aware of on the boat is the one on the panel.
On second thought, about a year ago I was having what appeared to be connection problems at the shore power plug. I removed a badly corroded galvanic isolator (I think that's what it was) from under the stern coaming. It was a real bear to get to. I put new connectors on the internal wire and reconnected to the plug in the coaming. I wonder if I took the breaker with the isolator. Something else to look into.
One other thing that I did not check (but will). The GCFI in the galley protects galley and head outlets. I did not check to see if it protects starboard side outlets. If it does not, I will probably add another GCFI on that side. Thanks again.
Tim
I misunderstood the term Pilot Berth thinking quarter berth. What does the test cube do that my multimeter does not do?
Jim,
I assume you don't mean a breaker on the dock. The only master breaker that I am aware of on the boat is the one on the panel.
On second thought, about a year ago I was having what appeared to be connection problems at the shore power plug. I removed a badly corroded galvanic isolator (I think that's what it was) from under the stern coaming. It was a real bear to get to. I put new connectors on the internal wire and reconnected to the plug in the coaming. I wonder if I took the breaker with the isolator. Something else to look into.
One other thing that I did not check (but will). The GCFI in the galley protects galley and head outlets. I did not check to see if it protects starboard side outlets. If it does not, I will probably add another GCFI on that side. Thanks again.
Tim
Tim -
The cube simply verifies that the hot wire, common wire and ground wire are all wired correctly in the outlet. Your multi-meter won't be able to test this. When you plug in the cube, it has three LEDs that will point out any flaws (ground not connected, hot and common switched, ground and common switched, etc).
The breaker Jim refers to is indeed located under the cockpit coaming, and it is a bear to get to. I replaced mine last winter, and added a galvanic isolator (my vessel did not come with one). When I installed the new master breaker, I put on an LED indicator that showed if the shore power was properly wired and the ground was grounded. If a source of shore power is improperly wired, all your outlets will be, as well. I now keep the main switch in the off position until I'm ready to plug in, then I check the polarity prior to putting it in the on position.
Lastly, if the GFCI in the galley was wired correctly, it protects the head outlet. The port side wiring is a separate circuit (at least on my boat!). I have a GFCI in the outlet in the pilot berth. It's easy to test using a multi-meter and hitting the test and reset buttons on the GFCI.
Matt
The cube simply verifies that the hot wire, common wire and ground wire are all wired correctly in the outlet. Your multi-meter won't be able to test this. When you plug in the cube, it has three LEDs that will point out any flaws (ground not connected, hot and common switched, ground and common switched, etc).
The breaker Jim refers to is indeed located under the cockpit coaming, and it is a bear to get to. I replaced mine last winter, and added a galvanic isolator (my vessel did not come with one). When I installed the new master breaker, I put on an LED indicator that showed if the shore power was properly wired and the ground was grounded. If a source of shore power is improperly wired, all your outlets will be, as well. I now keep the main switch in the off position until I'm ready to plug in, then I check the polarity prior to putting it in the on position.
Lastly, if the GFCI in the galley was wired correctly, it protects the head outlet. The port side wiring is a separate circuit (at least on my boat!). I have a GFCI in the outlet in the pilot berth. It's easy to test using a multi-meter and hitting the test and reset buttons on the GFCI.
Matt
Matt,
Thanks. It sounds like the cube has some kind of logic inside like everything does these days. I will pick one up. I'm pretty sure that port and starboard AC outlets are on separate circuits on my boat also so I will add another GFCI.
I really need to address the issue of the shore power plug. Since LEDs are diodes, I suppose you wired it so that current flowed through from the hot (black) wire to the common (white) wire?
Tim
Thanks. It sounds like the cube has some kind of logic inside like everything does these days. I will pick one up. I'm pretty sure that port and starboard AC outlets are on separate circuits on my boat also so I will add another GFCI.
I really need to address the issue of the shore power plug. Since LEDs are diodes, I suppose you wired it so that current flowed through from the hot (black) wire to the common (white) wire?
Tim
jose santin
Member
Tim,
In order to test reverse polarity you wire a light (small 110v bulb or LED ) between the neutral and the ground ( white and green) wires coming into the boat. If this light comes on it indicateds that you have reverse polarity. This light or LED is placed on the input side of the main breaker, so that you can test polarity before you throw the breaker switch.
The LED's used for AC have a series resistor that limits the current flowing through them. These are the same LED's used for 12v but with a different value resistor in series with the diode.
The LED will only conduct during half of an AC cycle, but since the polarity is alternating at 60 times a second you see a steady light.
Hope this explenation helps.
Jose
In order to test reverse polarity you wire a light (small 110v bulb or LED ) between the neutral and the ground ( white and green) wires coming into the boat. If this light comes on it indicateds that you have reverse polarity. This light or LED is placed on the input side of the main breaker, so that you can test polarity before you throw the breaker switch.
The LED's used for AC have a series resistor that limits the current flowing through them. These are the same LED's used for 12v but with a different value resistor in series with the diode.
The LED will only conduct during half of an AC cycle, but since the polarity is alternating at 60 times a second you see a steady light.
Hope this explenation helps.
Jose
Jose,
I stopped by the boat yesterday and checked the starboard side outlets. They are not protected by the GFCI in the galley as I suspected. So I will put in another GFCI outlet. I also noticed that my (new) panel has a reverse polarity LED built in. I thought that it did, but just had not looked recently. So I will put a breaker on the shore power plug, and possibly a galvanic isolator. Should be set after all that.
Tim
I stopped by the boat yesterday and checked the starboard side outlets. They are not protected by the GFCI in the galley as I suspected. So I will put in another GFCI outlet. I also noticed that my (new) panel has a reverse polarity LED built in. I thought that it did, but just had not looked recently. So I will put a breaker on the shore power plug, and possibly a galvanic isolator. Should be set after all that.
Tim
maluhia
Jim Ball
matt_fahey
Matt Fahey
Tim -
Don't mess with AC! If your new panel is a Bluesea panel, it will tell you if your shore power has reverse polarity BEFORE you throw the switch to the on position (assuming, of course, that you've wired it correctly). As Jose said, it's a matter of where the hot wire is fed into - there's no "logic" or semiconductors involved. If the hot is fed to the black, the red LED will not light up. If it's fed into the white, it will light up.
You absolutely need a breaker on the shore power plug - I think code requires that it be within 6 feet of the plug. A galvanic isolator on the ground is an excellent idea to add further protection from galvanic corrosion.
If you aren't 100% sure of the AC wiring, pipe up and ask - you don't want to go to that great marina in the sky yet, 'cause you won't be the captain any more!
Don't mess with AC! If your new panel is a Bluesea panel, it will tell you if your shore power has reverse polarity BEFORE you throw the switch to the on position (assuming, of course, that you've wired it correctly). As Jose said, it's a matter of where the hot wire is fed into - there's no "logic" or semiconductors involved. If the hot is fed to the black, the red LED will not light up. If it's fed into the white, it will light up.
You absolutely need a breaker on the shore power plug - I think code requires that it be within 6 feet of the plug. A galvanic isolator on the ground is an excellent idea to add further protection from galvanic corrosion.
If you aren't 100% sure of the AC wiring, pipe up and ask - you don't want to go to that great marina in the sky yet, 'cause you won't be the captain any more!
Matt,
Yes, I do have a Bluesea panel. The LED is not lit up, so the panel thinks all is well.
Jim,
Thanks for the link. The ELCI is interesting. I have never heard of this device before, but I want one.
I stopped by Home Depot yesterday. I did not find the test cube thing, and there was no one to ask at the moment (typical). I will try again later because I want to test the house as well. I did pick up another GFCI outlet for the Starboard side of the boat's AC branch circuit. That should be the easy part. The ELCI and breaker are going to be a royal pain, but worth it.
Thanks again guys. I have learned more about AC in the last week than I though possible.
Tim
Yes, I do have a Bluesea panel. The LED is not lit up, so the panel thinks all is well.
Jim,
Thanks for the link. The ELCI is interesting. I have never heard of this device before, but I want one.
I stopped by Home Depot yesterday. I did not find the test cube thing, and there was no one to ask at the moment (typical). I will try again later because I want to test the house as well. I did pick up another GFCI outlet for the Starboard side of the boat's AC branch circuit. That should be the easy part. The ELCI and breaker are going to be a royal pain, but worth it.
Thanks again guys. I have learned more about AC in the last week than I though possible.
Tim
maluhia
Jim Ball
Before purchasing and installing ELCI, this would be another resource to read.
http://www.lindequipment.net/main2.cfm?id=33C91EFB-1372-5A65-3BFC0A3C3BF1DD5D
The ELCI and GFCI are essentially the same thing with different trip points for different applications. I also considered installing ELCI, but came to the conclusion that GFCI would be best, at least for my application
http://www.lindequipment.net/main2.cfm?id=33C91EFB-1372-5A65-3BFC0A3C3BF1DD5D
The ELCI and GFCI are essentially the same thing with different trip points for different applications. I also considered installing ELCI, but came to the conclusion that GFCI would be best, at least for my application
Jim,
Thanks again. If I can't find one of these at Home Depot, I will just order online. I installed another GCFI on the starboard side outlet circuit yesterday. All outlets are good now.
Russel,
I looked online at ELCIs, and the Blue Sea version kept coming up for about $200. If I understand this, the ELCI would protect equipment that is wired directly to the AC panel. In my case, that would be the water heater and the battery charger. An ELCI may not be worth it, but I definitely do want a breaker at the shore power plug.
Someone mentioned a "Smart Plug" so I looked that up also. It is a neat design and protects against poor connecttion at the plug and overheating by using a thermal cutout. However, I'm not sure if I like it so much at $189.
I have never had a real melt down as shown in the Smart Plug web page, but I have often observed some charring on the plug. This is something that will not be prevented by the breaker on the dock. The poor connecttion increases resistance and the current actually goes down so the breaker will never trip. The increased resistance is the cause of the overheating.
Probably additional support of the cable to provide strain relief at the plug will do the trick, as well as just plain being careful. Currently, I am bow-to the dock which leaves very little slack left over in the shore power cord. It'something to consider.
Tim
Thanks again. If I can't find one of these at Home Depot, I will just order online. I installed another GCFI on the starboard side outlet circuit yesterday. All outlets are good now.
Russel,
I looked online at ELCIs, and the Blue Sea version kept coming up for about $200. If I understand this, the ELCI would protect equipment that is wired directly to the AC panel. In my case, that would be the water heater and the battery charger. An ELCI may not be worth it, but I definitely do want a breaker at the shore power plug.
Someone mentioned a "Smart Plug" so I looked that up also. It is a neat design and protects against poor connecttion at the plug and overheating by using a thermal cutout. However, I'm not sure if I like it so much at $189.
I have never had a real melt down as shown in the Smart Plug web page, but I have often observed some charring on the plug. This is something that will not be prevented by the breaker on the dock. The poor connecttion increases resistance and the current actually goes down so the breaker will never trip. The increased resistance is the cause of the overheating.
Probably additional support of the cable to provide strain relief at the plug will do the trick, as well as just plain being careful. Currently, I am bow-to the dock which leaves very little slack left over in the shore power cord. It'something to consider.
Tim
jose santin
Member
Tim,
When you refer to the plug, I am assuming that you are talking about the shore power cord connector? If you see charring at the shore power cable or the boat receptacle this menas that you have a weak connection and that you should replace both. These connectors wear out over time and when the connection is less than perfect it starts overheating and the charring occurrs. Charring means that there is heat due to a bad connection, this also means that there is a voltage drop at the connector and you will get low voltage in the boat. This is specially true in summer when you run the AC and the water heater and the coffee pot, with all of these things going the current draw is very close to 30 amps.
Morgan placed a houseold breaker box under the coaming next to the inlet recpetacle. I removed it ( it was rusting badly) I used 8 guage jacketed three conductor boat cable from the receptacle straight into the AC panel. If you want you can place a galvanic isolator between the green wire ( AC ground) and the battery negative ( dc ground). Do not connect AC and DC grounds together directly. You are better off with no connection at all.
The rusted out breaker box had a fuse in it that connectged the two grounds together( ac and dc ), it was not a galvanic isolator.
As I have stated before, Morgan did a real shitty job on the electrical system of the boat, on my electrical panel they had used bus wire to make all of the DC connections and then they had soldered ( cold soldered) the wires going to the breakers to that bus wire. The wiring used was not marine grade tinned copper.
In short, I have replaced every wire on the boat.
Its a great boat, just not perfect
Jose
When you refer to the plug, I am assuming that you are talking about the shore power cord connector? If you see charring at the shore power cable or the boat receptacle this menas that you have a weak connection and that you should replace both. These connectors wear out over time and when the connection is less than perfect it starts overheating and the charring occurrs. Charring means that there is heat due to a bad connection, this also means that there is a voltage drop at the connector and you will get low voltage in the boat. This is specially true in summer when you run the AC and the water heater and the coffee pot, with all of these things going the current draw is very close to 30 amps.
Morgan placed a houseold breaker box under the coaming next to the inlet recpetacle. I removed it ( it was rusting badly) I used 8 guage jacketed three conductor boat cable from the receptacle straight into the AC panel. If you want you can place a galvanic isolator between the green wire ( AC ground) and the battery negative ( dc ground). Do not connect AC and DC grounds together directly. You are better off with no connection at all.
The rusted out breaker box had a fuse in it that connectged the two grounds together( ac and dc ), it was not a galvanic isolator.
As I have stated before, Morgan did a real shitty job on the electrical system of the boat, on my electrical panel they had used bus wire to make all of the DC connections and then they had soldered ( cold soldered) the wires going to the breakers to that bus wire. The wiring used was not marine grade tinned copper.
In short, I have replaced every wire on the boat.
Its a great boat, just not perfect
Jose
Jose,
Yes, I meant the shore power cord connector. Every thing you said about resistance, current, and overheating is addressed (in theory) by the "Smart Plug" product. Still not sure if I want to spring for it, but I never have really liked the twist and lock marine connectors. They just never seem to fit right, always sort of loose, and the rings that screw on to tighten the connection are always cracked.
Anyway, I have suspected for some time that I need to replace the receptacle and plug at the boat end of the cable. I have no idea how old the shore power cable is, but the cable is probably Ok. The connectors are the weak link.
I stuck my head in under the helmsmans seat yesterday and looked up (very painfully) and noticed something I had forgotton: butt connectors at a distance of about a foot from the recepticle. I have never seen such pervasive use of butt connectors anywhere. It's not pretty, like the boat was wired from scraps.
When I replaced the headliner, I had the quarter berth stuff taken apart for a while and I could look up and just see the shore power cable routed along under the toe rail. It looks like it will be difficult if not impossible to remove. I will probably just route a new cable along side of it. Then I will have truly replaced every wire in the boat except for the engine. I just downloaded a wiring diagram for the engine, and I am looking at new gages.
The galvanic isolator is not a bad idea. My previous boat sat in a marina beside a large power boat with air conditioning running 24/7. When we hauled her the prop was in really poor condition.
Tim
Yes, I meant the shore power cord connector. Every thing you said about resistance, current, and overheating is addressed (in theory) by the "Smart Plug" product. Still not sure if I want to spring for it, but I never have really liked the twist and lock marine connectors. They just never seem to fit right, always sort of loose, and the rings that screw on to tighten the connection are always cracked.
Anyway, I have suspected for some time that I need to replace the receptacle and plug at the boat end of the cable. I have no idea how old the shore power cable is, but the cable is probably Ok. The connectors are the weak link.
I stuck my head in under the helmsmans seat yesterday and looked up (very painfully) and noticed something I had forgotton: butt connectors at a distance of about a foot from the recepticle. I have never seen such pervasive use of butt connectors anywhere. It's not pretty, like the boat was wired from scraps.
When I replaced the headliner, I had the quarter berth stuff taken apart for a while and I could look up and just see the shore power cable routed along under the toe rail. It looks like it will be difficult if not impossible to remove. I will probably just route a new cable along side of it. Then I will have truly replaced every wire in the boat except for the engine. I just downloaded a wiring diagram for the engine, and I am looking at new gages.
The galvanic isolator is not a bad idea. My previous boat sat in a marina beside a large power boat with air conditioning running 24/7. When we hauled her the prop was in really poor condition.
Tim
I am having intermittent outages of the ceiling cabin lights in the v-berth, outside the head, and over the salon table as a group on my 384. They must all connect somewhere near the compartment across from the head. Anyone know for sure where the connections might be? There isn't any hidden circuit breaker in this system is there? Thanks for your assistance.
Ray
Ray
