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Bilge pump Install

Thanks for the fast response Jim, I've got a couple. I don't like digital meters because I'm kind of a dinosaur.
Just not sure about the schematic. I'm dumb and my eyes don't work as well as they used too. My brain seems to get slower too!
Tomorrow I'll go back down and check the direction the pump is turning on each switch. We had a mechanic bypass the auto switch before we came down from Stockton to Long Beach and I think he may have switched the polarity of the orange lead.
I don't think the shower sump pump works either. I haven't got to looking at it yet.
 
So, bottom line, what is the polarity of the orange wire supposed to be? I think positive.
On a side note, I had the fortunate opportunity to meet and talk to Jessica Watson at the Long Beach Boat Show last weekend.

Buy her book, "True Spirit" and you will enjoy a good read. Her circumnavigation in Ella's Pink Lady is an adventure she will remember till she is way older than I am and it's hard to think one could get that old.

What a great story of guts, determination, and preparation! My daughter is 11 and there is no better role model in the whole world!

Go girl!
 
Buy Nigel Calder's book on boat maintenance.
It is the bible of boat knowledge. Color means very little since you have no idea who wired the pump!
Jim
 
I agree with Jim. Your best bet is to first detach the pump from the boat wiring. Then, look up the color coding on the pump, using the company web site downloads section. Test the wires that (eventually) go to the battery, to determine if they're correctly color coded (black-negative, other color(s)-positive).

Note there are TWO positives on most pumps - one for automatic, one for manual. One is usually brown, one is brown with a white stripe. Then, of course, there's the black (negative) wire.
The float switch goes between the brown wire and directly to the battery positive. The brown/white wire should go to the bilge switch on the panel (with another spliced wire to the bilge switch on the engine panel).The black wire goes directly to the battery negative.
I'd strongly advise you to re-wire all the way back to the battery and switch-board, that way you know the proper size wire has been used and it's been wired correctly.
When I re-wired Shepherd's Star last winter, I realized that Morgan had used the orange wire that runs to the holding tank indicator as a positive feed. nothing inherently wrong with that, but I prefer a dedicated wire for the bilge - that way, if there's a break in the wire, only one thing will fail, not two. I was surprised to see that Morgan had used un-tinned, #2 type wire, rather than tinned #3 (ABYC standard). I saw a quite a bit of corrosion on the old wiring, which eventually led me to re-wiring the whole boat.
I also got rid of the float switch, and replaced it with an air pressure switch (after going through about 6 of the float-type switches!). It has worked flawlessly all season, and is not subject to cycling.
 
Hey Matt. When are you coming up to rewire my boat!? <img src="http://morgan38.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif" alt=":)" border="0">

Great instructions. Think I might try to tackle adding a second bilge pump now.
 
If I were to go postal and shoot six co-workers, I'd rather be sentenced to 50 years hard labor with no chance of parole rather than 5 weeks of re-wiring another boat! It's a lot more than I bargained for, but in the end, I'm glad I did it - I know the boat a lot better, I improved the OEM wiring (put some wire protective sleeves in some tight spots, improved the materials, etc), put in some safeguards, re-organized the battery system and have labelled each wire.

If/when you add a second bilge pump, be aware that my second bilge pump didn't work out as well as I'd hoped. I put in a small "automatic" pump that goes on for a second every 5 minutes. If it senses resistance, it continues until there isn't any. I put it in to suck up the last inch or so of bilge water, but unfortunately, after about two months, it wasn't powerful enough to lift the water up the 6 feet needed to push it out of the boat (even with the reduced hose used), so it cycled on and off and wore down the battery. So, I either live with the last inch or so, or find some alternative system. What I do now is manually pump out the last inch after using the engine (it comes in through the stuffing box). That keeps it dry.
 
On a similar subject, I am considereing putting in a second, emergency electric bilge pump. But I don't want to stuff another pump down into the bilge. So, my idea is to have a pump of some sort up out of the bilge, with just a hose going down to the bottom. Anyone have suggestions on what type of pump I should be looking for? (Yes, I know of people that rig something up to run the engine intake line into the bilge, but that is not my current approach.)

thanks.
 
Can I ask why? Would it be 110 or 12 volts? There are many above ground pool/spa pumps out there but use big amps!
Jim
 
Terry -

If you do this, you need to make sure that the pump will be self-priming. The standard Rule bilge pump will not work, as they are not self-priming (they need to be sitting in water in order to work). You'll need something like a Flojet or Jabsco, which can self-prime up to 8 feet or so, but only pump out about 60 gallons per hour. (5 gallons per minute).
If you want a higher flow, you'll need to go with the neoprene impeller type, much like you find on the raw water intake. The problem there is that you need a lot of power to spin the shaft - which is why some like to have a valve on the raw water intake. If the boat starts to flood while they're on it, they can switch the valve to suck out the water in the bilge. I guess you could rig up that kind of pump to an electric motor, but then you'd have to either have a ton of batteries, or use it only when the engine is running (and the most efficient way to do that is to hook it up directly to the engine, rather than a dedicated electric motor).
Note that it cannot be automated, where the pump turns on if water is detected in the bilge. That's the crux of the problem.
I'm trying to figure out a way to have a "sipper" style pump to suck out the last inch that's totally independent of power needs - some kind of wave-driven mechanism that will take out the last inch while the boat is bobbing at a mooring.
One last thought for emergency pumps - the most dependable is a hand operated pump. Edson makes one (verrrry pricey at $600 and up), but claims they pump out up to 1800 gallons per hour, using a 1-1/2 inch or 2 inch hose. The question is, can the captain and crew maintain that pace for more than an hour or two?

Matt
 
Wow! Thanks for the help. Now to decide wether to buy a trawler and motor down the ICW or put the mast down and motor down in the Morgan.
We sure love our Morgan sailboat. It's getting cold here in the NE and keeping our Morgan here might work out better than motoring for 1000 plus miles on the Morgan.
Wish the Morgan was already down in Key Largo now. That's where we want to go.
 
One other consideration is particles and chemicals in the bilge water. The best style pump is either a centrifugal (Rule bilge pump) or a diaphram style (like the whale gusher).
 
Also, if you do decide to use an impeller type or Flojet/Jabsco, you'll need to put in a fine mesh screen on the intake, which will further reduce the effectiveness of the pump.
 
Sounds like a bad idea, in the end. I have a Whale Gusher--or whatever came with the boat, but it doesn't have the capacity if a true emergency pump for a boat as big as the Morgan. I may go to a bigger hand pump and leave it at that.

thanks for the thoughts.
 
I think you're more than safe if you simply recondition the whale gusher pump, which is rated at about 12-16 gallons per minute. That covers about a quart every second - quite a high rate of leakage. Reconditioning kits can be had from Defender Industries for about $50.
With a fiberglass hull, we have a lot less to worry about than those with wooden walls. Not that I'm speaking from experience, but I'd bet that any serious leak would come from a failed hose, damaged prop or damaged rudder. While these all might happen at any time, chances are higher that they'd happen when the boat is being used. If the boat springs a leak while it's being used, you have the advantage of fighting the leak while the bilge pump (and perhaps a crew member, manning the whale gusher) helps to keep the boat dry. Of course, if a hose fails when you're not on the boat, and the boat's at a mooring, and the battery gets worn down... so long, boat!
So, examine all through-hulls regularly, test sea cocks, close them if you're not going to use the boat for a while, keep the bilge clean, maintain and test the manual and electric bilge pumps regularly, and keep wooden plugs next to each of the through-hulls, and you'll sleep a lot better at night.
 
If you are not onboard, any leak is serious as was the case in this or another thread. I have to ask, what is the percentage of time are you on you boat compared to it sitting unattended? Your bilge pump(s) are the the boat saver and deserve utmost maintenance and testing to insure function.

Sorry for the sermon but I have witnessed it many times while living aboard in a marina and cruising.
Jim
 
Well, here's the latest on my bilge pump wiring question. First off, here's the wiring layout: I've got a positive orange lead from the manual switch, a positive brown from the auto switch, and a negative black lead. When I wire the brown to one lead of the float switch and then connect the other float switch lead to the brown lead on the pump and the black lead to the black lead on the pump and actuate the float switch, all is well.
If I then connect the orange lead to the brown lead on the pump and the black lead to the black lead on the pump and run the manual switch, all is well.... until I activate the float switch. Everything runs for a few seconds but the ammeter shows a draw of 15 amps and the breaker blows.
So I hooked up a second pump by disconnecting the orange lead from the first pump. I can run two pumps with no problem.
So I'm just going to plumb for running with two pumps. That's better anyway.
But I'm still curious what is going on?
The pump is a Rule 1500 (it only has a black and a brown lead) and the switch is a Rul-a-matic.
 
I may have spotted the problem from what you said, but I may also have mis-read... my comments are in parentheses. Hoepfully, this might give you some other things to examine.

here's the wiring layout: I've got a positive orange lead from the manual switch, a positive brown from the auto switch, and a negative black lead. When I wire the brown to one lead of the float switch and then connect the other float switch lead to the brown lead on the pump and the black lead to the black lead on the pump and actuate the float switch, all is well.
(This is fine, the wiring is done correctly - the auto switch is between the battery positive power and the pump, and the pump's negative wire goes back to the battery. You should have a properly sized fuse between the battery and the switch, close to the battery).

If I then connect the orange lead to the brown lead on the pump and the black lead to the black lead on the pump and run the manual switch, all is well.... until I activate the float switch.
(This MAY be the problem - since you've already hooked up the auto switch and the pump, you should only have to connect the orange wire to the brown lead on the pump, AT or AFTER the connection from the auto switch to the pump, not BEFORE. And did you wire up 2 black wires? You only need one).

Everything runs for a few seconds but the ammeter shows a draw of 15 amps and the breaker blows.
(It sounds like 1-you have two negative wires, 2-a short has been created somehow, blowing the circuit. Also, you should have a properly amped fuse between the battery and the switch, to protect against a fire in the wire - what gauge wire do you have from the battery to the switch? From the switch to the pump? And are all wire connections crimped and heat-shrunk, ABOVE the bilge water?).

So I hooked up a second pump by disconnecting the orange lead from the first pump. I can run two pumps with no problem.
(Not really - if one pump is on "auto" and the other is manual only, you really only have one pump when you're not on the boat. And when you're on the boat, you can only control one pump, not two).

So I'm just going to plumb for running with two pumps. That's better anyway.
But I'm still curious what is going on?
The pump is a Rule 1500 (it only has a black and a brown lead) and the switch is a Rul-a-matic.
(What model Rule-a-matic?)
(Lastly, a blown fuse/circuit breaker could be caused by an over-worked pump - check impeller through the inlet opening to be sure it is not jammed or stuck with debris. Check hose to make sure there's no blockage, and water can flow freely - I usually stick a garden hose nozzle in it, and SLOWLY shoot water into it until it comes out outside the boat.)
 
Orange lead is hooked up after the float switch. otherwise it wouldn't run on manual. Also, only one black lead.
Both pumps run fine when hooked up individually. Plus I'm testing them out of the bilge.
 
Ya got me stumped... Is the bilge hose clear? I'm assuming both pumps have separate hoses, as well. Otherwise, if there's a Y connector, you'll be pumping from the bilge up to the Y connector, and having the pumped water flowing back into the bilge.
 
Duane,
The brown lead uses the auto bilge breaker on the electrical panel to feed 12V. The orange BP lead is supposed to be fed thru the positive terminal on the ignition switch. My boat has a separate in line fuse on that wire coming off the key switch, then to the on-off switch on the engine panel, then to the pump.

It sounds like you are feeding both brown & orange thru the breaker. The combo of the two pumps exceeds 15 amps. On my boat, these two (orange & brown) wires are fed separately sharing only the return (black) to the negative bus.
Just a guess.
 
Well, I'm getting closer. I hooked the orange and brown feeds for the bilge pump together without hooking up the bilge pump. I could hear the blower motor turn on. It didn't turn like it does when the blower switch is turned on but it still spins. After a few seconds, the breaker trips. So I suspected back feed into the circuit. I disconnected leads to the l.e.d. on bilge, blower, and compass switches in the cockpit. Everything works well except the led lights don't turn on.
So now it's a matter of tracing more wires. The shower pump seems to do the same thing.....
In the schematic 382-213, I notice what appears to be a switch that connects to both the blower and the compass. I haven't found it yet but suspect that if it is bad it could cause the problem. Is it a voltage regulator?
Pretty bizarre...
 
Voltage regulator? Nah. I'd guess high resistance in your ground circuit.

Your blower and bilge pump are (supposed to be)separate circuits. They do share the negative bus bar in the engine compartment by the 1/4 berth access.

Look at where the negative BP wires connection, where they join & run back to the neg bus bar. If thats pristine:

Start at the battery, clean terminals, clean the bus bar & wire ends, clean the wire that grounds the bar to your engine, and clean the negative batt cable at the engine. Also look at where the negative BP wires are connected and run back to the neg bus bar.

I'll bet the problem disapears.
 
I second Dave's suggestion. When I re-wired last winter, I noticed that the grounding wire from the negative bus to the engine block was very small (something like 14 gauge), and I replaced it with a 2 or 4 gauge tinned wire. The blower's negative wire was attached directly to the neg bus bar, and I remember the wiring of the blower was a bit screwy - mine had triplex wire to the blower, with the ground (green) wire not attached anywhere. Guess the factory was short of duplex that day! I can't see why the blower and the bilge pump would be linked - perhaps Morgan thought that if you manually pumped out the bilge, you should ventilate the engine area at the same time??

Again, you may also have a problem with a clogged hose, which will overtax the motor and blow the breaker.

On your 382-213 electrical drawing (for Yanmar engines), what you're referring to is the cockpit control panel, and the blower and compass both clearly have separate switches. I see that the Perkins drawing (382-233) shows separate switches for the blower, bilge and compass on the control panel. PERHAPS Morgan wired all boats for the Perkins option, but the Yanmar option didn't have a bilge switch in the cockpit, and some earlier owner mistakenly hooked it up to the blower? I assume you have a Yanmar - can you tell me if there are two or three switches on the cockpit control panel.

Finally, when you say you've disconnected the leads to the LED and "everything works well", do you mean the bilge no longer blows the circuit? If so, sounds like the LEDs are wired in parallel (which is correct), but maybe they should be replaced?? (I don't think they're LEDs, they're probably lamps).
 
We have the Yanmar. We have led rocker switches in the cockpit for blower, bilge, and compass.
The blower motor only has two leads running to it.

With the green wires removed from the led rocker switches, everything works as it should with no blown breaker, except the led lights don't turn on.

Somehow the green wires seem to be connected to a positive lead which also feeds the blower motor with a small amount of voltage. I know that because when I completely disconnected the bilge pump and connected only the two positive feed wires, some small amount of voltage turns the blower motor and blows the breaker.

I'll trace the wires and replace the led rocker switches when the boat gets back from Catalina next week.

Thanks for the ideas.
 
Something doesn't gel here. On the 382-213 diagram, the only green wire I see is clearly marked as "not used". On the 382-233 (for the Perkins), the only green wire I see is from the alternator to the power line between the 60 amp fuse on the starter motor and ammeter.

If everything except the LEDs work, I'd still be suspicious that something ain't quite right. If the wiring is connected in any way to the engine, I'll be the first to say I know I'm out of my league, so I'd advise you to have a mechanic or electrician look at it, unless some other Morganite can shed light. If it feeds into the motor wiring, you don't want to mess with that without knowing what you're doing...

I know it's frustrating, but if I were you, I'd re-wire the whole bilge thing until it works properly, and I'd put in an hourmeter in the system, so you know when/if it's been busy while you've been away.
 
I know, I know, I'm giving advice without full knowledge of what Duane is facing. But like most advice, it's free and he can choose to ignore it. And I do advise to consult an expert.

Again, if I were faced with a similar situation, I'd rip it all out and re-wire it so that I know it was done correctly.
 
Sorry, I did not mean you specifically Matt. I met trying to isolate an electrical problem without having the 'hands on' ability. Again, sorry! I do agree with the suggestion rewire with proper wire.
Jim
 
Jim -

No offense taken. I'd love to see what Duane is faced with, but he's probably several hundred miles away - so we're stuck with a verbal picture, which presents a big challenge for accuracy in diagnosing a problem.
 
Our boats can have a bad case of bilge spaghetti. It's more time efficient for a mechanic to simply rewire a circuit than trouble shoot where the problem is. Time is money as they say.

I can't calculate the # of hours I had in trying to figure out why I was blowing the 50 amp fuse feeding the engine circuit. (A botched repair on the engine harness behind the fuel filter). We're talkin weeks! Let see at $75/hr... I should have ran new wires.
 
As many of you are aware from my earlier post on the "Hull Thickness in Bilge and Holding Tank" thread, I removed the section of the bilge floor that housed all the holding tank plumbing. This provided access to the former holding tank, an area on Pilgrim that I now refer to as the lower bilge. The entire black water system is now installed below the counter in the head.

Our plan is to install one manual bilge pump and three electric bilge pumps. The manual pump a Henderson Mark V, will remain in the cockpit. The three electric pumps are mounted in the bilge area at differing elevations.


19916.jpg

pump diagram


The diagram above is organized by elevation and does not reflect the fore to aft installation of the pumps in the vessel.

I constructed mounting brackets for the lower two systems.

19917.jpg

aft bracket



19918.jpg

fore bracket


The base of each bracket rests on the floor of the lower bilge and the flange at the top of the bracket is screwed to the floor of the upper bilge.


19919.jpg

lower bilge


The high capacity bilge pump is mounted in the upper bilge.


19920.jpg

upper bilge


For more details on the installation check out our...
https://plus.google.com/photos/105725086102693499228/albums/6041062483308638961

And the posts tagged with "Bilge" on our website...
http://m382pilgrim.blogspot.com/
 
Jeff, can you describe the HT level sensor? How did it work? Would it be easily replaced with a more modern version? A picture eould be nice of the device if possible. Thank you
 
I've considered those bilge pump switches. Have you any previous experience with them to vouch for their quality? Or, will the be the first time that you've tried them?
 
Ken - I enthusiastically endorse the Ultra Safety System Pump Switches.

http://www.tefgel.com/contain.php?param=pumpswitch_price

The switches I am installing on Pilgrim were installed on our Morgan 34, C'est la Vie. in 1998. We purchased C'est la Vie in 2005 and sailed her over 15,000 miles. During that time we had one issue with the lower switch when after a particularly rough passage from Wilmington, NC to the Abacos the lower pump came on and then refused to turn off. The rough passage stirred up some long deposited greasy sludge from the depths of the bilge. This coated the float mechanism and caused it to remain in the on position. Fortunately the switches are easily serviceable. The image below is from cleaning the float and the base of the switch after the crossing.


19925.jpg

yuk


After cleaning the tube and the float the switch returned to working flawlessly.

The one down side to these switches is the cost. Ouch.

Aqualarm is making some very similar looking float switches that cost significantly less.
http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-12234242&id=744053

Aqualarm also has a very nice looking pump monitor panel that includes a on-off-auto switch, a fuse holder, a cycle counter, and an alarm.
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-12234242&id=1650563
 
A quick question,,,i have a charley Morgan 38,1971,hull 68, on my breaker panel, I have a switch for the aft bilge pump, and another for rear bilge pump, as I look into the bilge below the ,trans, and shaft, there is a bilge pump, forward{towards the bow} of that one about 2 feet or less, is another one, is that one the forward pump?
 
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