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Bilge pump Install

D

dry_martini

Jimmie
For the first time I need to replace the bilge pump in the forward section of the deep bilge. The old one was held in place by a Jerry-built bracket and I would rather do a more solid installation. I understand the bottom of the bilge is the top of the holding tank so I am reluctant to drill holes there.

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Jimmie
 
My 6 foot draught is impossible to reach. I attached the pump to a vertical board so it would remain up-right and so I could raise it for cleaning and refit when needed.
 
Jimmie
My Electric bilge pump, which sits over the holding tank, isn't fastened to the bottom of the bilge at all. It is bolted to a teardrop shaped piece of fiberglass that is slightly smaller than the floor of the bilge. When it is sitting in place it keeps the pump in an upright position and also allows the pump to be easily lifted from the bilge for servicing.

Jim
 
I thru-bolted mine to a piece or 1/4 fiberglass board that was cut to fit on top of the tank. It also makes a platform for the bilge switch. Because it spans front to back and side to side the pump has no where to go. The board was gelcoated so it was easy to keep clean as well. Also made removal easy as well.It also made it easier to position the pump where you want it to go.
 
Our bilge pump (Rule 1750 ghp) is attached to tha same fiberglass piece as Jim's and Sam's. I also attached a Rule enclosed float switch to the same piece. The setup works well. However, the pump cannot completely empty the bilge. When the pump runs, it draws the level down to perhaps 1/2" deep and the float switch turns the pump off. Then the water pumped into the 1" dia. hose that leads from the pump to the discharge drains back into the sump. This leaves about an inch of water in the bilge which is fairly close to the turn-on point for the float switch. I have not had a problem with cycling - I suppose I could while sailing but I typically control the pump manually.

I had considered putting in a check vavle but I don't like the line restriction and loss of pump flow. It also traps water in the discharge line.

What are others' experiences? Any different set-ups or do you just accept that the the bilge is never dry?

Thanks.

-Alan

Paragon, Lake Lanier, GA
 
Alan,

I just went and bought a Rule 2000 gph pump and installed it as suggested. Now the pump starts normally but will not shut off. I never had this problem with the old pump (with much less capacity.) Since the pump works perfectly when I pull it out of the bilge I am thinking it is sucking so hard that it keeps finding enough of the residual water to prevent the shutoff from working. I plan to call Rule tomorrow and see if they have any ideas.

Jimmie
 
I think that the lowest part of the bilge is back by the galley sink. I placed a Rule 1700 in that hole with a check valve. I used the existing cold box pump-out hose run for the exit. the hole is only 1/2 and with the check valve kept things pretty dry. it is a tight fit.

The Rule 3500 bolted to the fiberglass board was a secondary pump. It was on a manual only switch. The bilge pump float switch mounted there was for the smaller pump (set aft). That way the switch was always a little higher than the pump. It did keep the upper end of the bilge dry and you could run the lower pump on mamual remove as much water as possible.
 
Guys: Try mounting the float switch on a 1/2 inch piece of plywood on the glass piece, recycling will not be a problem.

Dick
 
The rule float switches are junk. I went through 3 of them before I found a Groco air pressure actuated bilge pump switch. The switch is mounted up under the galley sink where it is safe from moisture (relatively). From the switch, a small plastic tube extends into the bilge to a plastic bell fitting that is mounted on the fiberglass board that the bilge pump is fastened to. When the water level in the bilge rises, the air pressure in the bell increases which actuates the switch and turns on the pump. I installed this switch over 10 years ago and it works perfectly.
 
I'm glad you mentioned the Groco switch Jim. I have replaced my Rule switch so many times, I can't remember how many I have replaced.
Are you sure they still sell your model Groco? Is it available at Defender or West?
Larry
 
All bilge pump switches have problems. Never buy a cheap switch, keep your bilge clean, install any switch correctly and check it frequently. Install a bilge pump cycle counter to know how many times it runs!
 
Larry
Go to Groco.net, follow;Products, Pumps, Switches & acc. The bilge switch is Model # AS-100 with a MSRP of $59. The web site should be able to lead you to a distributer. I think I got mine from Defenders when the were in New Rochelle. This is the best damn switch I've ever seen on a boat. I installed a by-pass switch across the groco switch to turn the pump on manually from under the galley sink.
By the way, Bonnie needs your address so she can send Deanna a quilt pattern or something.

Jim
 
Just to add to the thoughts...

I too use the Rule 2000 with float switch like described above (yep, rule switched are junk). I'll be installing a Groco if I can find one.

I don't like check valves in pumps for the same reason you guys don't. My sollutuon was to install a second small 500 GPM unit with a float swtich lower than that of the 2000 GPM unit...AND a check valve in line with the 500 GPM unit.

My thoughts were that the small unit was just to help keep the bildge dry not for any "real" problem. The 500 GPM unit does the work but the real pump is the un-restricted 2000 GPM unit.

Vic
 
True, a broken thru hull fitting 2" in diameter, 3 feet below the waterline will let in 136 gallons/minute (8160 gph). Virtually no pump - even the ones the Coast Guard air drops - can keep up with that. The good news is the pressure is very low - 1.3 psi. A finger in the dike, a sock stuffed in the hole, or a collision matt can make the difference between sinking and floating.

-Alan
 
I Posted something on this subject a number of days ago and it is not on the board. Have I become an unwanted poster? Adminster please reply to me.

Dick
 
The link below is for the Groco bilge pump switch Jim suggested. $36 seems like a good price! I had a problem with excessive cycling with hinged type switches - the differential is too small. I found that an Ultraswitch - high differential model solves that problem, but they are complicated in design and not reliable. They do not stand behind their products, and the owner, Bob is about as big a jerk I have run into for a long time.

Jim, does the Groco solve the cycling problem? Does anyone else have other suggestions?
http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|51|299222|84462|316439&id=211405

John
 
John
I've had the Groco switch installed now for 14 years now. It has been bulletproof. There rarely is a lot of water in the bilge so I really don't have much experience with the pump cycling excessively. What I do know is that in those 14 years I have replaced the pump 3 times while the switch still works fine.

Jim
 
Jim,

I installed the Groco, and it runs for about 3 seconds and shuts off. This is just enough the partially fill the hose. So the water runs back down and the cycle continues. There does not seem to be any differential, at least not the 1 3/4 in. Groco claims. (I am in touch with them.) I do not have a check valve and the switch is 1 in. above the bottom of the pump.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
John
 
I had a similar problem with a different kind of switch. You need a check valve.
The hose with water in it is about 10 feet long and all of the water will run back. A check valve fixed the problem.

Bert
 
I use a check valve on my manual pump. But you should be aware that it safety experts counsel against it, because you do not want to increase the risk of failure or even reduced flow in an emergency. i balance the risk between a check valve and a manual pump that, despite manufacturer claims, was always losing its prime.
 
I had the same problem. I installed a 2000gmp pump with the float switch set about 8" off the bottom of the bilge. This pump had no check valve.

Then I installed a small 500 gpm pump with internal float switch and a check valve. This pump was to keep the bilge sort of dry and keep the big pump from cycling.

It works like a charm.

Vic
 
John
Sorry I didn't get back to you right away. It sounds like your bell fitting for the air hose is too high. The bottom of the bell must be at the same level or lower than the bottom of the pump. If it is set too high the air pressure calls for the pump to shut down too soon. Try lowering the bell. On Dana the pump and the bell are mounted on a thin piece of fiberglass that sit in the bottom of the bilge. The switch stops calling just when the bilge pump stops sucking. I don't use a check valve and the last hose full of water drains back down into the bilge. That isn't much water and I never found it to be an issue. Next week when I go out to the boat I'll take a photo of the pump and the bell.

Jim
 
Does it have a vented loop? I would also be concerned with it being below the waterline if the boat was talking water. The exit point must be above the waterline at any point of heel or when motoring.
 
Sorry, but the bilge pumps are rated at gallons per HOUR (gph), not per minute (gpm). The company I worked for, before retiring, made fire pumps that put out 2000 gallons per minute and they needed 2-10 inch intakes to be able to supply that amount of water. Just a clarification.
 
Sorry, but the bilge pumps are rated at gallons per HOUR (gph), not per minute (gpm). The company I worked for, before retiring, made fire pumps that put out 2000 gallons per minute and they needed 2-10 inch intakes to be able to supply that amount of water. Just a clarification. Dave
 
GPH also has a relationship to the height the water must be pumped, i.e. from the bilge to exit on the hull.
Jim
 
My auto-bilge float switch appears to work properly but the pump works for a couple of seconds and then blows the breaker.
We ran a separate line directly from the battery to the manual bilge switch and then to the pump. It works fine. I checked for debris around the pump and it's ok.
Could it be the float switch of would you expect a bad connection? The switch and pump are both Rule.
Thanks!
 
Duane -

Two years ago, I had a similar problem, and it turns out the auto switch was the culprit. It suffered a short inside the (supposedly) waterproof innards. This year, I replaced the float switch with a pressurized air switch, which will engage when water starts rising up a tube, forcing a diaphram shut, thus closing the circuit. I figured there's too much that can go wrong with the mechanical float switch (jammed open, corroded innards, cycling on and off with boat rocking, etc), so I took it out of the picture.
I think Rule makes cheap junk, but I also think it's the best cheap junk out there... IMO, a fortune can be made by someone willing to build a better bilge pumping system.

Matt
 
OK. I'll simply bypass the float switch and see what happens. It's a new switch so I figured it must be good.....

Thanks,
Duane
 
Might also want to diagram out the wiring, and relace with 14 or even 12 gauge wiring, including the switch in the cockpit. Somewhere, you may have some abraded insulation, resulting in a short that's causing the circuit to blow - and raising the potential of either a swamped boat, from a non-functioning bilge pump, or a fire from a short - two of the most common causes of boat loss (though the circuit breaker seems to be protecting you from the fire).
 
If a Rule pump is jammed it is likely to overheat, melt and cause the windings to short and if not fused properly burn. I've seen it happen, I've also seen a Rule paddle switch melt. Beware
 
All electrical components should be fused for protection.

Bilge pumps and bilges should be maintained. Bilge pumps should be checked frequently for effectiveness by adding fresh water and then monitoring time it takes for evacuation. Two pumps are even better!
Jim
 
Jim,

I had the same problem. I spoke with a pump expert at Rule, and he told me the pump was worn, and pulling more current than it should. This condition is symptomatic of an old pump that is worn out. I replaced the pump, and have not had another problem in several years.

As a chemical engineer with 25 years of industrial experience, have worked with my share of pump problems. I believe this to be a technically viable observation based on my experience with impeller pumps. Of coarse, this is only one of several possible reasons for the breaker to be tripping.

You can take my comments or leave them. Being negative about suggestion of others is not within the spirit of this board. Jim, although I normally respect your input, you have a habit of being a "Know It All", and negative toward input of others.

John Noble
 
hey bill,
i live in a house full of engineers and work in the field with them.they are not always correct.
keep up the good work.
woody
p.s.
the board is great source of info. and you Bill are a big part of it!
everyone is invited over for raccoon stew this weekend.
 
I had a blind-in-one-eye raccoon on my workbench once that stayed for two days before he/she decided to move on. It was very ugly!

I'll bring the catchup!
 
Dear Folk,

Most bilge pumps are vane pumps. Any sort of accumulation of "crud" on the vanes will cause extra effort for the pump (more amps for the same amount of water pumped).

I was racing Oconee on a night race around the Pamlico sound a few years back when I went below and found water almost to the cabin sole. The bilge pump had kicked out. I reset the breaker and it ran for about 5 min. and kicked again. What's goin' on I saz to my self???

I kept the pump going by resetting until the race was over and then dug into the pump. It was a rubber band that had been sucked into the blades. The pump was drawing way too many amps - friction just plan friction. Ware on the blades over time will also cause the pump more friction or failing bearings.

Oh. The cause of the high water was a split in the "torpedo" tube hose that connects the cockpit drain. I replaced the hose.

Fairwinds and Rum Drinks,

Vic
 
Well, I too had assumed the pump was drawing too much amperage so I replaced it. The brand new one did the same thing as the old one. Now I have a spare. It runs for a couple of seconds then trips the breaker. The wire gauge idea is interesting. The gauge of wire leading to the pump is much heavier that the actual leads on the pump itself. Makes sense because of the longer distance it travels. But what surprised me was that all the connectors on the breaker panel are all simply pressed on bayonets.

I thought the breaker switch might be bad so I changed it out with another and the same thing happened.

The float switch is new but I suspect it may be the culprit. As stated many times on this board, they are prone to failure. I'll check it out in the next couple of weeks. Strange that it had worked fine for several months after I put it in.

If it's not the switch, it seems as though it could be a bad connector between the battery and the pump.

As a good friend who is an electrical contractor says, "It's a process of elimination."

Ask 3 sailors 1 question and you'll get at least 4 different answers. That's just how it is!

Thanks for the lively debate!
 
Vic,
most of these non commercial pumps use bushings not bearings.if they were bearings they might be made serviceable (grease) and save alot of replacements.I have seen worn impellers due less but draw less amps.
i agree with Jim it sounds like an output blockage or improperly routed discharge line

imho
 
I'll check that after I check the switch. It works fine on manual which is wired to bypass the breaker. I'll be out of town for a week so I won't know for awhile.
 
I pulled a couple of old Rule 1750's out of a wood boat that was about to get chain sawed. They had a hard life, barely worked. For fun I disassembled the pumps and cleaned the commutator with 220 to 600 wet and dry, then undercut it. Old school elec. motor stuff. As I recall, the Rules had a bushing on the impeller end, sealed ball bearing on the commutator end. (One pump's bearing was shot so it was a throw away.

Anyway, cleaning the other motor transformed the pump's performance. I'm still using it (as one of three). I recommend the procedure as periodic preventative maintenance!

Also, I contacted Rule about a defective 2 yr old Rule BP switch. They asked for the production dating numbers on the switch and sent me a new one. I suspect they know they had a bad batch.
For what its worth
 
dave,
did you also change the brushes? a clean commutator is one thing the mating of brushes is another more important one.i would not recommend this as periodic maintenance.as long as you have three I guese its o.k. Any arcing from even a minor scratch on the commutator will cause burning then failure.I would only do that for a temporary fix.these pumps are only designed to last so long then chuck them.
fwiw
rich
 
Rich, not sure I follow. There was plenty of material & spring pressure on the brushes. But I agree on "planned obsolescence".
It appears that these pumps are designed to stay vertical, with the trapped air in the case protecting the electrical innards. Tip them over and bilge water gets to the brushes/commutator (as well as the bearing). Which is what I think happened to mine.
 
Dave,
what I meant was,these pumps are important to our boats and any sign of malfunction other then a wiring or feed problem they should go to the garbage can.you are right about planned obsolescence! unless you are using them as emergency spares.I still would not trust them.If you did not use a lath to cut the commutator it could be out of round.old brushes crack and springs wear. don't get me wrong i love old school motor stuff too. sometimes it just doesn't pay especially with a bilge pump.
after all this talk of electric pumps I better get to rebuilding my manual whale pump soon,has not worked in a year but that is another project thread.

regards,
rich
 
Gentlemen of the Board,
I was facinated by this thread, no one has mentioned one of the most likely reasons for the pump blowing fuses:
If the circuit has a loose connection the volatge drop in that connection will cause the pump to have lower voltage than it requires, it will therefore draw more current ( this is the same reason that starter motors and anchor windlasses burn up). There is also the possibility that the breaker itself has gone bad. Morgan did a great job on these boats except for the electrical system, they cut corners( at least on my 1980 382).
I do agree that all circuits should be fused. The wire size used should be big enough to trip the fuse before the wire melts and starts an electrical fire.

Best Regards

Jose
 
Right you are Jose.
After 30 yrs of use, my pump wiring had a total of 6 crimp connectors, various wire guages down to the pump. I cut about 2 ft of "add on over the years" wiring, back to the 10 guage non tinned OEM wire. I should have pulled new Ancor 10 ga back to the breaker, but I cheaped out after finding some corroded crimps downstream.

Even more laughable was the 4 ft/multiple connections on the replacement PAR waterpump under the galley sink!

There is a lot of electrical work in my future....
 
Agree, loose connections and voltage drop are big issues. I don't like the spade connectors on the circuit breakers, screws and ring connectors would be better but it's a major rewiring job and I've been putting it off. My 120v receptacle stopped working because the wire vibrated off of the terminal-scary
 
Dave -

I spent a very large amount of time re-wiring the boat. Best advice I can give to you is to plan, plan, plan, buy high quality tools (crimper/stripper), buy more than you think you need, and stay organized with all the shrink-fit ring terminals, butt joints, etc.
 
You should also get a digital multi-meter, for testing voltage drop, determining amp flow, etc. I got mine at radio shack for $30, and it worked just fine.

Oh, and do all the work without the boat batteries on board, and not hooked up to shore. I used a couple of 6 volt batteries in series to get a small-amp 12 volt for testing connections. Large enough current to get the lights on, but not so strong as to give me a nasty shock or cause a fire quickly. Be sure to leave the batteries unconnected.

I'd suggest you get a whole new electrical panel, which is expensive and a lot of work, but in the end, you'll end up knowing what each and every wire is.

IF you're going to do the AC, you should replace the circuit breaker box under the cockpit coaming with a plastic box, and perhaps add a galvanic isolator. Additionally, you should separate the AC terminal block from the DC terminal block, for safety reasons (both are located in the small space under the nav table storage area).
 
Hi Matt,
be carefull using a 30 dollar meter to meaure d.c. current (amp) flow. here is a link you may find helpfull.
rich
 
Happy to report that the Radio Shack cheapie did the trick, as far as using it to understand the wire layout, and to test the results of my re-wiring. As I was using two small flashlight battery 6 volt batteries in series, I wasn't at all afraid of getting shocked, but was careful anyway.

Note that I did not mess with the engine harness. Making lights go on, pumps pump and electronics function is relatively easy to do with DC... put the red on red, and the black on black. But when it came to engine sensors, ignitions, working with 00 cable, starter motors, etc, I steered clear... maybe next winter's project!
 
There are nice clamp on DC ampmeters, I got one at the local EPO(electronnic parts outlet) for $90. It will measure current draw without having to cut into the circuit. It is great for measuring all sorts of stuff, alternator charging current, ect. You can tell if a breaker is bad with this gizmo too. It is well woth the money IMHO.
 
OK,
I finally got around to checking things out a bit. The float switch was bad, even though it was less than a year old so the folks at West Marine replaced it with no hassles... but I still have the same problem. If I disconnect the auto switch from the mix the manual switch runs the pump just fine. If I disconnect the manual switch the auto bilge switch works just fine. If I hook all together it runs for a few seconds and trips the breaker.
I'm beginning to think that the polarity is reversed on one of the switches because when they're both on the breaker trips.
The bilge pump is being fed by a black, brown, and an orange lead. I'm not good at reading schematics but I would think the orange should be positive by looking at the Morgan schematic 382-205. But I'm confused because it looks like the orange wire runs directly to the negative side of the shower drain pump.
Any thoughts?
 
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