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Below Deck Autopilots

We installed an Autohelm 6000 ST with the type 1 linear drive and the corepack 100 computer control in 2002. It was the best addition we've ever made to a sailboat and has been a real work horse. We use it for Ches. Bay day sailing and long-distance blue water sailing in all conditions. It has worked like a charm. For a husband and wife team, this arrangement has allowed us to relax and enjoy the sail much more so than contantly hand steering. Specifically, in standby mode the unit consumes about 1-2 amp hours; in average sailing conditions, engaged, it draws about 3-4 amp hours, in heavy seas about 5-6 amp hours. As stated in an earlier post, yes, it depends upon sea conditons and how hard it is working. We use an E-meter to monitor all of our electronics. With a KISS wind generator and 120 watts in solar power, the consumption by the autopilot has not been a great concern.
--Tropical Dream
 
Most autopilots used to guide a 18,000 displacement boat will consume up to 6 amps for sustained periods in heavy seas. Therefore, you can expect that the max draw over the course of a 4 hour passage in heavy seas to consume 24 amps. As you can see this can consume much of a battery banks capacity during a day long sail. Even at optimum sailing conditions with the unit working intermittently you have to have some considerable reserve battery capacity. In moderate conditions you can expect consumption to be around 2 to 3 amps/hr. Jim Hudnut/Stella Maris
 
I have a Cetrek, not sure of the amp draw but will check next time out. I do lnow that on a long days passage 12 to 14 hours it consumes about 60+ amp hours out of the battery bank.

I have a question the Cetrek that is intalled is hydralic driven; I am wondering is there much preformance differance between the linear (sp) drive v. hydralic?

Tom
 
High doubt that the amp draw with hydraulic is greater than with either a push rod or rack and pinion. The lowest amp draw autopilot is a mechanical drive using a sprocket and chain but most only fit with a steering system of a cable and rod. Not many around.
 
Jim,

I don't know about your high doubt, all I can say is the hydralic pump works all of the time while auto is engaged; pump on more correlates into more power consumed from the battery bank. There are quite a few variables involved, sea state, point of sail and if the auto pilot is even adjusted properly; all relate as to how hard the auto pilot is working to keep the boat on course. Admittedly I have never comparted power cunsumption from hydralic pump v. linear drive; do you know?

Tom
 
Sometimes checking the spec sheets on individual pilots can give an idea of average power draw.
Jim
 
My recollection of comparing power consumption of various pilots (I've had three)is that the max draw on most of them is 6 amps. There are custom pilots for below deck installations that draw more but most are for larger boats than the 12 to 18,000 disp.boats. My opinion is that maintaining hydraulic pressure while the pilot is not actively steering would not consume a significant amount of power. They all draw some power when they are idle and I think that is why when they give you a range of power consumption say like "Amp draw is 2 to 6 amps/hr" they are accounting for power consumed while idle. Jim Hudnut/Stella Maris
 
Tropical Dream and others with 6000 series autopilots with Type1 linear drives,

Have you ever wished you had upgraded to the type 2 linear drive or has the type 1s been completely adaquate?

The reason I asked is our boats loaded (22 to 23,000 pounds worse case) are right on the edge of what the manufactures recommend for the type 1s.

I surely do not want to spend more in money or amp/hours. But I do not want to under undersized the unit either.
 
I never have had the need or desire to switch to a type 2 drive. 23K is a lot of extra weight for the 38 to be carrying!
Jim
 
Tony,

I could not agree more. However, I do not plan on crossing oceans. For crossing oceans windvanes are the definite choice.

For short hop (one to 3 days max)and motoring an electric unit seemed the best way to go. I had to make a choice - davits or windvane steering. Right or wrong I went with davits.

Thanks for the input you guys.

Vic
 
Jim,

I agree that the weight does seem a little high but, well here are my figures:

Boat - 18000
Batteries - 145
Anchors - 145
Solar Pannels - 69
Windlass - 52
Chain - 350
water - 840
fuel - 224
Jerry Jug Fuel - 135
Jerry Jug Water - 201
Dink - 123
Dink engine & fuel - 150
Tools / spare parts - 200
Food / clothes / misc. - 500
Books / CD /etc. - 100
My Fat Ass and a friend - 340

Total = 21,574 pounds.

Now asume the boat has absorbed a little water over the years or she was laid up a little heaver than "the book" said and you quickly approch 23,000 pounds.

That's why I've been picking you guys brains. My boat atleast is right on the cusp of what a Type 1 unit will handle.

Vic
 
The prior owner of Pirate's Lair took the boat south to Venezuela 6 times and swears by the unit and type 1 drive. Even used it as the back up rudder control after breaking a chain in a rough Windward passage run.

How much more will my boat weigh after adding the wine stores?
 
Jared,

I took into account 20 12packs of beer, 4 bottles of scotch, 1/2 gallon of gin and rum and 6 bottles of red and 2 of white. All is well.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm convenced.

Vic
 
I wrestled with the Type 1 vs Type 2 as I do believe our boats are well over the 18,000 quoted in the literature. In fact, I recently had our boat trucked to Maryland, the hauler weighed her at a weigh scale and she came in just shy of 21,500 lbs. She had normally been in the water approx. 5 months per year and at the time had full diesel and no water and very few supplies on board. Also had no dingy, outboard, autohelm, radar, SSB so with these along with full water and cruising supplies we're adding at least another 2000 lbs.

I elected to go for the WH Autopilot - not cheap but very beefy and fits nicely. It's a company out of Seattle, they've sold thousands of these units and come highly recommended. As far as power consumption - not too sure of that one but certainly wasn't unreasonable. When I'd check the Link monitor it was generally drawing less than an amp, sometimes up to two or three when the pump was working hard but I didn't average things out.

Kevin
 
Noble Prize has a Navico 8000 with type 2 linear drive. I think it is a 12 in. hydraulic ram with 15 to 20 C.I. volume. I average 3 amps draw in 15 to 20 on the wind. When the processor gives up the ghost, I am going with a Simrad AP 16 probably from Comsumer Marine Electronics since they seem to has the best price. Simrad bought Robertson which had a high rating.
 
For you wind-vane users out there: a few of you have probably hooked up a tiller pilot to drive the vane when motoring or sailing in light air. I installed an Autohelm ST1000 to my Cape Horn with OK results. This is a very low electrical power solution that produces very high torque. While it is great in theory and, in my opinion, an important add-on to the wind-vane system, it is hardly an ideal solution.

The problem is the response time, from the AP detecting the boat is off-course, to the servo-pendulum actually rotating and swinging over to effect the correction. There is no feedback between the rudder and the AP. Furthermore, there is a level of indirection: the AP is steering the paddle's vertical axis, the rudder is responding to the paddle's deflection on the horizontal axis. As a result, the AP is sorely behind the curve in reacting, and the boat leaves behind a wide S-shaped wake.

I spent countless hours during my two Atlantic crossings staring at the operation of the vane together with the dynamics of the boat. Being a software engineer with a degree in physics, I thought of solutions that would marry the smarts of a high-end below-decks pilot with the power, speed and electrical economy of a windvane's servo-pendulum. To that end I have applied for a patent and begun developing a hybrid solution that utilizes a fluxgate compass, 3-axis rate gyros, interface to speed and wind instruments, and a rudder-position sensor (much like a high end pilot) that will drive the vertical axis of an existing servo-pendulum. Driving the vertical axis takes very little power (the wind does it normally). The flow of water passing the boat provides the power instead of the batteries. I think it can be done, albeit with a considerable software development effort.

I am curious of what the reaction would be to such a solution. I would appreciate hearing the opinion of other Morgan sailors on this.

Oscar
M-382 #161 "Calypso"
Miami Beach, FL
http://www.oscarkramer.com
 
I am installing a Raymarine ST6002 on Water Racket a 1995 CM38CC. I have purchased an Edson 10" Tiller Arm and getting ready to make this installation in the next month. I would appreciate any comments or ideas on this belowdeck installation. I have read and browsed the information here and found lots of different installations. Lots of great information. Any comments?
Thanks, Bill Creadon
 
Bill, are you installing the electric or hydraulic actuator? I installed the ST6000 3 years ago, replacing an older Raymarine pilot. I stayed with the electric liner actuator. If you are installing the electric actuator, be aware that the total throw ( linier travel ) of the actuator is very close to the max rudder travel. I had to install shims under the rudder stops to reduce the rudder travel by aprox 1/4'. Otherwise the internal stops in the actuator would have been exceeded, causing a failed actuator ( $$$$ ). I installed the fluxgate behind and aft of the settee drawer, attached to the bulkhead that is used to support the the galley sink. This was as low and close to the centerline of the boat that I could find. However I have to be aware of any magnetic items placed under the sink or the settee storage areas. I have been very happy with the install and performance of the Pilot. Mine does a fare amount of hunting running down wind in following seas, but I feel that is to be expected due to the rudder size on the 382. Hope this helps
John S/V Windrifter
 
John
I appreciate your information and input. Yes, I am using the Type 1, Linear drive and the ST 6002 S1G. I am replacing an old ST4000 Wheel Pilot that was poorly mounted and worthless for any steering. Somebody had mounted the fluxgate compass in the head just below deck level and about 4 feet off the centerline of the boat. Needless to say, the calibration was in excess of 39 Degrees. In the 1995 M38CC I will be able to get a mounting similar to yours in the galley area. I appreciate the information about the rudder travel as that is important in the functioning of the linear actuator. I'm excited to see how well this computer controls the steering function and I know from experience that anything behind the aft quarters is a crap shoot for wind condition steering. I'll let you know how I make out. BTW, I am in the Plastic Fabrication and Distribution business and own my own company, I tend to hoard cutoff pieces of Starboard, Acrylic, and Lexan. Let me know if I can help you with anything.
Best regards,
Bill Creadon
S/V Water Racket
 
I am still nursing along an old Navico Powerpilot, below decks unit and am in need of a HS8000 Heading Sensor unit. Is there anyone out there that may have replaced their earlier autopilot and still have a functioning Heading Sensor compass around? I'm in Mexico and would really like to get this thing up and running before the return trip. Thanks
 
I am also nursing a Navico 8000. On the circuit board in the HS8000 compass is a 1 microfarade capacitor that goes bad. I don't remember to symptoms, but I replaced mine in 2000. There is no support from defunct Navico or Simrad who bought them. If you want to pursue this, and have the ability to solder in a new capacitor, I can describe where it is.
 
John, I can see a small burn mark around a component, but am unable to identify it. Any help would be appreciated. You can email me at tl.parrish(at)yahoo(dot)com ----Thanks, Terry
 
Hi,
Has anyone had experience with hydraulic
linear drives? I am particulary interested in Octopus reversing pump and cylinder. There are some very interesting, and detailed posts by Mr.Freeman. Any thoughts appreciated.
Thanks,
Tom
 
If you want a top-notch autopilot, look at
the WH line out of Seattle. I have one on my 384 installed by previous owner. Exceptionally strong and very reliable.
Steve Dashew specifies these on his boats.
 
<a href="http://www.whautopilots.com/products/index.html" target="_top">http://www.whautopilots.com/products/index.html</a>

One important factor with any AP is number of owners, reliability, service, and review of other users. The other factor is how any below deck AP is installed and COST.

Jim
 
I am looking at WH, I like their simplicity
I asked for a quote few days back, nothing yet. As of install I will install myself, but still it is a major $$. I looked at type 1 Ray, will actually fit, however I do not like mechanical screw, gear and complexity. I want to be able to fix it myself if push comes to show.
Thanks for your input.
Tom
 
Tom
This winter I installed a Jefa direct drive system with a Simrad control. It's an electric Flat wound motor. No hydraulics. When the system isn't being used there is no drag on the steering. We launch this week and we'll get to test the system.

Jim
 
With any drive unit, it must be able to handle all sea and wind conditions you believe you will be sailing in. There are many variables but the largest is total loaded displacement of the boat.
Jim
 
With any autopilot system, you always have an electric motor. That said, the simplest is the hydraulic driven system, but then you have a hydraulic pump and many fittings. The Jefa direct drive is simpler IMHO.
 
I put in a Simrad with hydraulic drive unit. The platform that the hydraulic unit sat on was a big chunk of the cost, but at the end of the day, this thing is a workhorse, and performs flawlessly all day long, in any kind of seas or weather. My advice - don't try to save money on this expense, get the most rugged and dependable. Otherwise, you might be forced to take over steering the boat when you least want to do it.
 
I went with the HLD350-AC12, with an AP28 control unit and the RC42 compass, which I mounted in the small storage space beneath the pilot berth, above the starboard settee.
 
Hi Matt,
Did you have a need for a rader feedback unit? Did HDL350 came with a reservior and hose kit?
Tom
 
Tom -

I don't have radar, so no need for a feedback unit. My eyesight is that good! (actually, I always thought radar gave a false sense of security - I've heard too many stories of people mis-reading the screen).

And the HDL350, as I recall, does not have a reservoir and hose kit - it's fully self enclosed. The rigger who installed the hydraulic unit had a bracket bolted on the starboard side of the rudder, and the unit sits on that with the business end attached to a short arm bolted onto the rudder post.
 
Tom -

Sorry, I was a bit puzzled by "rader" feedback, but I think you meant rudder, not radar. I'm not sure how radar would interact with an autopilot...

I do have a rudder feedback unit on the setup - the RF300 - it's a little bit redundant, since I already had a rudder position indicator on my engine panel (I took out the original ammeter indicator). I figured that the Simrad rudder indicator was needed to make sure everything worked properly.
 
Tom
You need to have a rudder feedback unit if you are using a Simrad AC42 or AC12. If the computer isn't told where the rudder is positioned, it will lose track of it's responses. The RF300 rudder sensor has a simple linkage to the rudder quadrant and is wired back to the AC42.

Jim
 
A year ago, I also installed the Simrad HLD350 MKII (hydraulic linear drive with hydraulic reservoir as part of the unit...no separate reservoir with hoses to run) with AP24 contol and the AC12 computer. have been very pleased with its performance...even steers in following seas. Controls Celerity very well. I would buy it again without hesitation. My only complaint is the poor installation manual. I installed all but the drive arm and rudder feedback sensor (yard did those since needed fiberglass platform bonded to hull for the arm). I am not a geek and had to call Simrad several times for help...but they were very patient and helpful. Let me know if you have any questions..am headed to Chesapeake so have limited internet access.

Melinda
 
Hello M-38 autopilot enthusiasts, we became Morgan 382 owners last fall upon finding Williwaw on Mobile Bay.

I'm planning on some Caribbean time in the coming years and am certain a good autopilot is high on the list of "must-haves"

Noticing that the last post in this topic was a year ago, I thought I should put the question out there one more time and learn is anyone has found a competent auto-pilot that's easy-enough on the batteries to keep up with solar panels while in the Caribbean, or I should be thinking wind vane. . .

Eager to hear your latest thoughts. . .

Thanks, Tom
 
Tom,

I installed a Simrad below decks autopilot with the AC12 computer, HLD350MK2 drive arm (short, not split) with rudder feedback sensor. Have been extremely happy with it. It performs very well and has relatively low current draw. "Chester" steered Celerity all over the Chesapeake last summer in different conditions without any problems. I would recommend it without reservation.

Will be happy to answer any questions.

Melinda
 
Thanks Mel,

Seems this stuff changes over time so, it's good to hear a good report on recently installed equipment.

Williwaw came with a compass but not much else for navigation or communication, so I'm starting over from just about the sonar up.

Would appreciate a chance to talk more at length some time to get my mind around how all this stuff works.

First question that comes up is what user interface you connected the AC12 Computer to so you can "talk" to it and tell it what to do. Must be a Chart Plotter or other device with a screen on it somewhere. Also wondering if you've got other info coming to it (GPS, Wind, etc.) and if the connections are NMEA 2000 or 1083 or, a combo. . .

Meanwhile, I'll keep the internet busy doing my homework.

Thx, again ~ Tom
 
Jim,

Thanks, but before I ever posted, I guess you could say I'd "been there and done that." Used the "search" feature on the word 'auto' and went through every thread I could find.

I discovered that the autopilot-related posts span a decade or more. In that time: NMEA 2000 has come along; Navico bought Simrad and B&G; and, Garmin has come on the stage.

Seemed to me that old posts will only take me so far in today's market.

I have accumulated a wealth of great wisdom from my fellow M-38 owners from all that reading (and have read mfgr's websites and other reviews) but am nonetheless faced with starting to outfit the Williwaw from the "sonar-up" with new electronics in 2014.

Hope that helps folks understand why I went asking for recent experiences.

Thanks again to all, Tom
 
Tom,

Glad my experience is helpful....I installed the Simrad model that I did because another Morgan owner was very happy with his.....Vic's experience was incredibly helpful to me.

I don't have a chartplotter...guess I'm "old" school and use a laptop computer connected to a GPS and runs The Capn software and charts. The computer lives in cockpit under the dodger when I'm underway...have been doing this for years. Am hoping to add AIS in near future which will also display on laptop.

I could connect the autopilot to it but have chosen not to since I want to be the boss to tell it where to steer Celerity. I know several people who have had the autopilot connected to chartplotter etc and let it steer to set waypoints. I've never been comfortable with that. Too much can and does go wrong. Just my opinion :)

I had a yard install the drive arm, Edson bronze tiller arm and rudder sensor.....they had to build a sturdy fiberglass platform bonded to the hull and drill hole in the tiller arm to mount to the rudder post...beyond what I was comfortable doing.

Simrad (like Raymarine with Seatalk) has Simnet...proprietary software that drives the autopilot (and any other Simrad instruments like depth, anenometer, etc). I have Nexus instruments...bought the Simnet cable to connect them to autopilot computer but have not done so (would allow the autopilot to steer by the wind).

The owner/installation manual could have been more user friendly but I did install all the wiring, the computer (mounted on aft wall of quarter berth), display (mounted on bulkhead to starboard of companionway with my other instruments They can be read from anywhere in cockpit not just behind helm)and fluxgate compass (originally mounted in cabin on port side close to sole next to mast but had magnetic interference from pumps and lectrasan in head cabinet just on other side of the bulkhead. After speaking with Simrad, moved it up the bulkhead close to the ceiling and beside the mast.)

Let me know if you need any advice. Am happy to help.

If you want to talk, send me your e-mail (carverf@ecu.edu) and I'll send you my phone number...

Cheers,
Melinda
 
I don't know what your demands or expected use is. I have a CPT, in cockpit pilot, and it is quite serviceable except in real rough conditions. Cheap. Stronger than any other wheel pilot. Rough conditions, wind vane is best.
 
I'm with Terry about the CPT wheel pilot. I put one of these on about 5 years ago, when considering what type of pilot to replace the Simrad I previously had. I live aboard and stay , and cruise, in the Western Caribbean. This past Monday I cleared out of Honduras at Isla Utila, and headed to Guatemala. Weather to start was wind 18-20, swells 5-6 feet. Weather to increase during the day. I put up only my 110 jib, and was making 6-6.5 knots. The wind and the waves were coming on my starboard quarter. Late in the afternoon, the wind was at 25 plus a little, and swells 10-12. Auto pilot doing it's job. A little later I was down in the cabin when suddenly the boat takes a sharp turn to starboard, auto pilot clutch trips out, and I'm back up in the cockpit trying to get off running parallel to the swells and back on course.. 3 LARGE swells had come under the quarter and pushed the boat hard to starboard, and the pilot kicked out. I got things under control, back on course, rolled up some jib, and tightened the autopilot clutch. No more problems the rest of the 21 hour trip. . That's about the limit I've experienced with the CPT pilot, and generally it performs very well.
 
Would like to see images of the CPT installation on a M382, 383, or 384.

I've heard good things about the system, but the motor box appears a bit obtrusive when mounted on the pedestal below the wheel.

Thoughts?
 
A wheel pilot is not meant for strong sea or wind conditions. I ask, why not just spend the extra money for a below deck autopilot unless you never plan to go where conditions might go beyond the capability of the wheel pilot? My thoughts Jeff.
 
I'm with Jim on this one. The other big benefit of a hydraulic ram is that it serves as an emergency tiller, should the steering cable fail. With the control unit at the helm, steering is a snap - in fact, I often engage the autopilot and use the small knob to steer the boat when underway, making small adjustments as needed.
A wheel pilot cannot act as an emergency tiller if the steering cable fails.
 
to each his own and to each his own budget. For me, it depends on your sailing conditions. My CPT is $1200. It would be nice to have the below deck, of course, but I don't need it at the price they are. For off shore work, I have a vane--which I almost never use, frankly. I think I am going to replace the Monitor with a Hydro Vane eventually. Get the rudder further aft, helps balance the boat.) (My CPT is mounted on the deck, just to the port of the wheel, not the pedestal.)
 
No question, you should get what you pay for. A few grand should buy you more than a few hundred does.
But even if you have the bucks, you probably won't spend more than you need (that's why you still have the bucks).
About 10 years ago I spent $700. for a Simrad WP30. It still works fine for my needs. When it goes, I plan to replace it with the CPT, which is a better unit than the wp30, no longer made. As far as the wp30 is concerned it never failed to do what I asked it to do. But I never asked it to do more than I thought it capable of doing. In other words it did what I wanted at the bargain price of $700. Now, if I spent $7000. I still would not have asked for more performance than the $700 unit gave me. I just did not need it, and probably never will. And if I do, Yes, I will spend a few grand to have what I need and will use.
Mean while my Timex is a great boat watch.
Larry
 
My Jefa direct drive autopilot self destructed after 11 months of use. We were motor sailing in the ocean just off Savannah Georgia at the time. Jefa refuses to honor the warranty on the unit. The US distributer, PYI, just wants to sell me a new system. So we are now in the market for a reliable below decks steering system. What systems do Morgan owners have and what has been their experience with the units and the companies behind them. Thank you all in advance.
 
I have a older Nexus system, hydraulic linear drive, very powerful, though right now I have a hydraulic leak that has defeated all my recent efforts to find it. A bit noisy, we call it Moana. I hope I can fix the leak, I am otherwise very happy with it.
 
I have a WH unit, hydraulic, very robust, steers in anything. Made by a small firm in Washington state. If you ever have a problem you'll deal with the owner.
 
WH was Woods - Freeman, they made a very high quality autopilot system, but alas, they shut their doors for good a month or so ago.

If I had one of their units, I'd consider myself very fortunate. Sounds like they have a very small inventory of parts left, so if I did have one, I'd contact Michael Freeman to see what spare parts I might be able to put on the shelf.

Tom
 
Oops, I mistook WH for W-F.

Please disregard the above posting.

I'm now eager to learn more about WH.

Tom
 
Simrad makes the HLD350MK2.

Hydraulic Linear Drive (HLD) with 350kg (770lbs) of thrust.

I have the same unit. Works like a charm!
 
I would have thought that a drive like this with 770 lb thrust would be adequate for the M382 but the description on the Defender website says it is intended for boats to 37' and 10,000 lb displacement. Obviously these numbers are recommendations not absolutes. with only an 8" stroke, the length of the quadrant lever arm must be short. Longer stroke would provide more torque.

I'd like to see photos of actual installations, estimates of energy use, and a list of the various components needed for a complete system. (Computer, control unit, rudder feedback, compass, etc) to get a better idea of the cost. Mounting of drive and attachement of new quadrant on rudder stock are of interest. If a new quadrant is fitted on top of the existing cable steering quadrant, how do yo install an emergency tiller?
 
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