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Appropriate sailcloth weights

B

buzzme4it

Buzz Nichols
<div>Hi all,This is carrying over from my Attn: Larry Hume post. We've been
talking about Lee Sailmakers, who Larry says made him a fine
sail, and whose prices are quite reasonable. For a 150 genoa,
they recommend 8 oz Dacron, and for the main, 10 oz. Both those
seem on the heavy side for me, and my coastal cruising needs,
but this is the first set of sails I've bought. Larry has a
good point about so much weight aloft if it's not needed, but
the loft recommends those weights. What do you guys think?Thanks,
George (CM38 #73)
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George,
Average wind and sea conditions in the area that you sail is an important factor in determining sailcloth weight. Where do you sail? I would guess that 10oz for a mainsail is not to much for San Francisco Bay (it's only a guess) but, much to heavy for Western Long Island Sound (summer wind 6 to 15knts average).
As I mentioned before, Southerly sails from L.I.S. to Maine. I figure we are sailing in winds from about 5knts to 35knts. Refining that to a realistic 8 to 22knts for average conditions. Taking a poll of sailcloth weights is a good idea if you factor in location.
We still sail with a 8 year old genoa. It is a Hild 10/40 Regulator, I don't think they make it any more, because Hild was bought out by Doyle. This sail is built with various weights of sailcloth starting at the luff with a panel of 5oz, and getting heavier towards the leach, with the final panel being 8oz. This sail is designed to perform in winds from 10knts to 40knts, hence the name 10/40 Regulator. You reef in the lighter cloth as the wind increases. Hild held a patent on it, so the other sailmakers could not copy this design. Being a small loft this sail was only popular locally. I am telling you this to point out the use of heavier cloth for stronger winds. At the same time a cloth that is too light will not service you well. If in doubt, lean towards heavier cloth (we are cruising, rather than racing).
Because of the large main on the CM (great old CCA design) I would also recommend two deep sets of reef points.
George, where do you sail? If you are not too far from me I would be glad to roll out my sail on the club floor for you to look at. I sail out of Orienta YC, Mamaroneck, NY. Are we neighbors?
Larry

 
<div>Hey guys, this is great! I'm in the market for a new genny myself. I just replaced the main last year with an 8 oz full batten cruising mains'l with 2 reefs - 1 normal, 1 very deep. I bought the sail from Mainland Sails in MS for $2200 all said and done including Battslides. They're now called ProSails. My buddy has been trying to order a genny from them and is getting poor service.
I like the prices you're talking about from Lee. I wonder if Lee would ship it to Spain for me where the boat is presently.What I find very surprising is the genny size you guys are talking about. I have an old 135 on the furler now. I have a 150 but can't imagine using it as a primary for cruising. I would venture to say that I sailed that 135 reefed down 20% or more for about 30% of the Atlantic crossing. That size is just about right for versatility.Can someone enlighten me to your thinking? I'm always learning.
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Tony,
A 135 is more than enough for crossing the Atlantic. As you mentioned, you used it reefed most of the time. Western Long Island Sound is a light wind area. A good summer day might render wind in the range of 5 to 12knts.. A 150 that is reefable works well on a M382. I have seen M383s that are happy with a 135 because of the 4' taller mast. The truth is, going to windward, even on L.I.S. a 135 would be fine on a cruising 382. Once you crack the sheets and are sailing 60 or more degrees off the wind, in wind up to, but not exceeding 15knts. the 150 is a great sail. In those conditions a 135 would work well, but not as well (for pure speed).
Occasionally, while cruising alone with my wife, we will roll out the 150 and sail with only the head sail. The 150 gives us enough sail area to move nicely off the wind on a gentle wind day. THIS IS NOT RECOMMENDED because you should distribute the forces, rather then put all the stress on the headstay. But we only do it for a short run on a gentle day.
The thinking, as you ask to be enlightened about only works well because of the wind conditions in my area. I am certain that I would change my thinking (and genoa) if I sailed in an area that had stronger average wind conditions. For instance; if I did a lot of open ocean sailing, I imagine that I would want my headsail to be cut high on the foot, from the tack to the clew (resulting in a smaller LP). This would help to prevent wave water from being scooped up into the foot of the headsail. I also think a 110 (very slight overlap) would be fine. Again, you mentioned that you found yourself reefing your 135 about 20%, which indicates that a 110 with a slightly high cut would be good. Reefing your 135 gave you the same effect as the higher cut. You were keeping the sail out of the water.
Larry

 
<div>Larry, thanks again for your information. I'm in the FL Keys, and the wind range is generally about what you have, normally in that 8-22 kt range. It rarely gets over 35, unless a storm system is responsible. I wish we were neighbors, it sounds like it would be fun to compare notes and boats. If you ever find yourself in FL, let me know.Think 7 oz is a reasonable weight for those winds? I can't image not being reefed in 25+ kts.George
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George,
You're right, 7oz. Will be fine. Actually, anything between 7 and 8oz. would work well.
May I suggest two deep sets of reef points. I would suggest three for a frequent ocean sailor. I hope you never have to use the second set, but its good to know there available. The CM carries a big main (older CCA sailplan).
Also, consider a luff rope. As your sail ages the pocket starts to move aft. This creates weather helm. Tightening the luff rope will move the pocket forward, eliminating the weather helm, and giving the main many more good performing years.
I also like a shelf. Off the wind in moderate air, the shelf is open and the sail is full. Going to windward, tuck in the shelf by lowering the sail by a few inches, attach the grommet on the luff to the cunningham, and re-tension the halyard. This will flatten the main, and in many cases ease weather helm and eliminate the need for a reef. This says nothing about how well your boat will be performing because you are using maximum horse power without excessive heeling.
Larry

 
<div>I just got the proposal from Cal at Lee Sailmakers, and some fabric samples. It's interesting to compare their patch with the JSI fabric, made by Challenge. The Challenge guys soak the fabric in a resin, so the material is much stiffer, like my grandfather's old khaki trousers. They boast durability, but I get the feeling furling the main would be tougher, and I don't know how the shape of the sail would be in light air. Since Lee's genoa came in at $1,565 with luff pad and sunbrella if I get the main at the same time (main is $1415 in 10 oz and 2 reef points), I'm not sure the Challenge fabric genny is worth $400 or so more.Do you think a 10 oz main would be more resistant to losing its shape over time than an 8 like yours? I have to admit, lots of times it's nice just to put up the sail and not fuss with it.George
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George,
Simplistically speaking, heavier is more durable. But, the answer is not simple. A lighter cloth weight sail will heel the boat less, accelerate faster, and take a better shape in lighter air. But that does not mean you should consider a 5oz. main because lighter will be faster. Nor does it mean you should get a 20oz. main because heavier will hold up better. In the end everything amounts to making compromises. The best compromises are made by taking into consideration your personal sailing life style and drawing on your past experiences.
In my case, the main I replaced lasted 20 years. The first 15 were great. The sail performed well and only needed a restitching after 12yrs. During the last 5yrs I kept saying "I need a new sail". As the weather helm increased I was constantly making adjustments, but of course, it kept getting worse. During the last 2yrs I could not tune out the weather helm. The inevitable was I needed a new sail.
Making a decision is actually an individual choice. And individuals do not think exactly alike, nor do they care for precisely the same things, even if they do agree in general. So I made my decision by realizing that I received 20yrs. of service from the sail and could not go wrong if I replaced it with a similar sail.
I don't like cloth that is stiff and heavily impregnated with resin. I find it hard to handle. It might have many pluses, but again, I got 20yrs. out of the old sail. What more could I ask for! And that is how I made my individual decision. Someone else might have made a different choice, based on other things. There is no wrong choice. The only thing you could do wrong is not use your intellect.
Sorry these answers are so long, but I don't want to mislead you with a subjective opinion.
Larry

 
Larry. I have a 384 and I made a main sail from a Sail Rite kit. I used 8.7 oz Challege material. The stiffness only last one season. It was not hard to reef or furl.
 
Jay,
Challange make lots of different cloth of the same weight, so does Bainbridge. The cloth you used sounds like the same type I would have also picked.
But, tell me about your experience making a sail. Was it hard? Who cut the shape for you? How were you able to line up everything, and get it straight. Reef points? leech line?
luff rope? etc.
Larry
 
<div>Larry. Sail Rite lofted and cut the sail out. Each panel is cut on a computerized-plotting machine and is very accurate. Basting lines are drawn on the fabric and the cut is so close that if you bast it correctly the luft and leach (on a crosscut) come out perfectly. What you need is a very large room. Like a basket ball court. It took my sister and I about 40 hours to get it put together and I spent about another 16 hours with some details. If we had a larger room, we could have reduced the time by half. Sail Rite gives you detailed instructions and everything you need (i.e., reef, batten, headboard, grommets, slides, cringles, etc.). I found it a very worthwhile project. I may not ever make another sail, but I'll never take a sail to a loft for repair. Regarding the sailcloth, now that you mention it, I think it wasn't the stiff cloth but had more of an intermediate treatment and stiffness. Jay
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Thanks so much for your comments. They're definitely appreciated and noted.
I didn't have any problem catching water. My 135 is cut about 1' above the lifelines. I have caught water but it's rare. It's really a question of how much heel I have. If I'm sailing "smartly", 20 degs or less, it's not a problem.
 
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