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White Exhaust

jimcleary

jimcleary

James M. Cleary
Last season and this my Yanmar 3QM30F has been putting out white smoke/steam with the exhaust. I have done numerous fixes to cure the problem. New injectors, new mixing elbow, New impeller, new thermostat, cored out the heat exchanger, insured all the salt water side hoses are clear. With these fixes the amount of the smoke/steam has been reduced but not eliminated. This past weekend I put an air pressure test on the waterside of the exhaust manifold. In 10 minutes time the air pressure dropped 20 lbs. So I'm thinking there is a small crack in the manifold. The fresh water side coolant level has not dropped and the coolant appears nice and clean. The engine oil is at the proper level and is the proper color. Before I spend $900 for a new exhaust manifold, I want to explore all options. Would anyone have any suggestions as to what else I can look for?

Jim
 
By the way, I am leaving today on the boat for a trip to Mystic Seaport for a week. The distance is 90 NM each way. I'll be closely monitoring the engine's performance while we travel. Oh and the engine sounds and runs fine.

Jim
 
jimcleary said:
By the way, I am leaving today on the boat for a trip to Mystic Seaport for a week. The distance is 90 NM each way. I'll be closely monitoring the engine's performance while we travel. Oh and the engine sounds and runs fine.

Jim
Click to expand...
I envy you Jim...love the old seaport. I'd love some pictures.
I guess if we got down the canal to NY we could sail over to Mystic...
 
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Sounds like manifold MAY be leaking. How old is yours? I replaced mine about 6 years ago. That was the only replacement, the original lasted that long. Because I am concerned about this area as well (parts available) I checked with Niemic Marine ( Yanmar parts for N.E.). There where then 7 in the world.
However if it's leaking it has to show up somewhere. Watch the oil very close.

Dick
 
Grab the manifold while they still exist. Do a search on exhaust manifold failures. Last time i looked the MTBF was about 6 years.
 
We just arrived at Mystic Seaport this morning. Sailed most of the way here (90 nm) so the engine didn't get too hard a workout. There was a light whispy white exhaust but not bad. So the decision on the exhaust manifold is still up in the air. The guy who supplies my Yanmar parts tells me that the manifold is still available but it's an after market unit. For the price they ask, it should be made of titanium. We'll see how it performs on the trip back home on Monday.

Jim
 
Tommy
If that's the case then Dana is doing well because the exhaust manifold has been on the engine since I brought it in 1987. It was probably there from the original build. Thanks.

Jim
 
A miracle has occurred! On our 200 nm roundtrip to Mystic Seaport the issue of white exhaust has corrected itself. Early in the journey, while motoring, the white exhaust disappeared, this engine water temperature dropped 10 degrees, and the volume of salt water come out with the exhaust increased. For the remainder of the trip no symptoms returned. My only thoughts are that a partial blockage in a hose or the block's passages loosened up and blew itself clear. This should save me a couple of boat units.
By the way, the music at the Sea Music Festival was wonderful!

Jim
 
Jim could your mixing elbow be the culprit?
You're too wise to believe it will fix itself (for long) !
Dave
 
Dave
The mixing elbow is brand new this season. Your right, this is one of those "If it seems too good to be true, it probably is" scenarios. I'm watching and waiting for the shoe to fall. My best guess is the exhaust manifold, but if that is the culprit, then why have the symptoms gone away? Both the coolant and the oil are clean and at their proper levels so I don't think the head gasket is bad. There is a larger volume of water coming through the exhaust and the engine water temps have dropped 10 degrees since we made the trip. This may all be FM.

Jim
 
Jim, If the mixing elbow is new, new thermostat, new impeller, etc., then my thought is that you had a blockage in the raw water pickup perhaps (strainer basket full?) or a plastic bag was somehow sucked p in the grate of the pickup that maybe now has worked it's way out. The larger volume of water to me is the tell tale here. I would also be wary of exhaust hoses now as they may have gotten too hot from the lack of water flow. Steam/white smoke in a diesel is not a good sign! A quick google search of diesel engine (not marine but I think they can apply just the same):

WHITE SMOKE with heavy diesel odor to exhaust:
White smoke generally happens when there is not enough heat to burn the fuel.
The unburnt fuel particles blow out the tailpipe producing a rich, thick, diesel fuel odor.
Could be one or more bad injectors
One or more valves needing adjustment
***********************************************
WHITE SMOKE no diesel, or sweet odor:
* Typically a coolant leak into one or more combustion chamber.
* Cracked head, bad head gasket, cracked cylinder.(in this case perhaps cracked or defective exhaust manifold in the coolant tank)
* Usually a cooling system pressure test will eliminate all possible external issues, leaving mechanical diagnostic engine teardown the only option.

My experiences with mechanical equipment in general and boats in particular tells me that things that fix themselves are usually only temporarily 'fixed'!!

Has it been hard to start?
 
From Nigel Calder's book.... white smoke:

Lack of compression
Water in the fuel
air in the fuel
defective injector
cracked cylinder head / leaking head gasket
 
John & Tommy
I've read all of Nigel's stuff three times now. This whole thing has me baffled. I don't smell excessive diesel fumes or sweet odors from the exhaust. The coolant and oil both look perfect and are maintaining the proper levels. That leads me to believe that the head gasket, cylinders, injectors and valves are OK. With the sudden clearing up of symptoms, I don't think the exhaust manifold is cracked. If a crack was there, it would only get worse not better. My only explanation at the moment was that there was a partial blockage in the water ports of the block itself. When I had changed the impeller and the thermostat, I also backflushed the intake hose and the thru hull valve along with cleaning the strainer and the heat exchanger. From the mixing elbow to the overboard valve, it's either new or has been flushed. That leaves the inside passages of the block as the only place not inspected. My plan now is to flush the block with vinegar and hot water. To do that the hose from the exhaust manifold to the mixing elbow and the intake hose would be rerouted to a bucket to allow the vinegar to circulate while the engine runs and heats up. My concern with that is if the engine can run with the exhaust dry. In the electrical industry we have successfully used vinegar to clear concrete and debris from all different sizes and types of conduits. Oh and I have eliminated water in the fuel because no water has appeared in the fuel filters all last year or this. The diesel fuel looks clear and without water. Water would have to pass through 2 -- 2 micron filters to reach the combustion. So, until that other shoe drops, we'll just use her and wait. Thanks for all your insights and any additional thoughts you may have.

Jim
 
The worst thing in the world for equipment, especially boats, is a lack of use. If it continues to run well and oil, coolant, etc. have no issues, then perhaps it was an injector thing and with use and heat, it rectified the issue. I am unfamiliar with the Yanmar of your vintage and how the exhaust/heat exchanger are constructed but if it is at all like the Perkins 4-108, it is exhaust manifold encased in a tank where the antifreeze resides. The brass tube cluster is where the raw seawater flows through and acts as the heat exchanger from antifreeze to raw seawater. I'm still thinking it's possible your raw water intake was blocked externally (grass, plastic bag, seacock not open all the way?), just enough that the pump was pulling water, but not enough so that your exhaust elbow, while allowing water flow, was getting too hot from lack of enough water flow.... that would explain the higher engine operating temp, the white/steam at the exhaust and yet the thermostat, impeller, heat exchanger were all clear. I would recommend a thorough reinspect of your exhaust hose and muffler to be sure they are not heat damaged... just my thoughts from afar!
 
John
You mention the muffler. Mine is the standard fiberglass tank (appox 12"high x 12" dia). There is no way to get inside the tank to inspect. Both the intake and outtake hoses have been either replaced or flushed and inspected. What could go wrong with it? With 2" inlet and outlets, I can't imagine it being clogged. What are your thoughts?

Jim
 
jimcleary said:
John & Tommy
I've read all of Nigel's stuff three times now. This whole thing has me baffled. I don't smell excessive diesel fumes or sweet odors from the exhaust. The coolant and oil both look perfect and are maintaining the proper levels. That leads me to believe that the head gasket, cylinders, injectors and valves are OK. With the sudden clearing up of symptoms, I don't think the exhaust manifold is cracked. If a crack was there, it would only get worse not better. My only explanation at the moment was that there was a partial blockage in the water ports of the block itself. When I had changed the impeller and the thermostat, I also backflushed the intake hose and the thru hull valve along with cleaning the strainer and the heat exchanger. From the mixing elbow to the overboard valve, it's either new or has been flushed. That leaves the inside passages of the block as the only place not inspected. My plan now is to flush the block with vinegar and hot water. To do that the hose from the exhaust manifold to the mixing elbow and the intake hose would be rerouted to a bucket to allow the vinegar to circulate while the engine runs and heats up. My concern with that is if the engine can run with the exhaust dry. In the electrical industry we have successfully used vinegar to clear concrete and debris from all different sizes and types of conduits. Oh and I have eliminated water in the fuel because no water has appeared in the fuel filters all last year or this. The diesel fuel looks clear and without water. Water would have to pass through 2 -- 2 micron filters to reach the combustion. So, until that other shoe drops, we'll just use her and wait. Thanks for all your insights and any additional thoughts you may have.

Jim
Click to expand...


Hi Jim, We just launched our recently purchased 382 with old Yanmar that had been on the hard for a number of years. While prepping for launch I didn't like the way it was drawing water from a bucket. Impeller was fine. So I did a reverse barnacle buster bath using a portable electric sump pump. One gallon of the solution going in on exhaust manifold exit and coming out at heat exchanger inlet. It was an anemic stream at first but after a couple of hours of circulation it was a healthy stream. And in the water she was spitting water like a champ. I had done this bath once before on a raw water cooled universal that was running hot, blowing white steam and burning exhaust hoses. Similar anemic stream tuned into a gusher after a while. I am very pleased with the treatment. And it was very easy to do.
 
Captpete
What is this Barnacle buster stuff and where do I get it? I take it you circulate this with the engine off. This sounds better than my vinegar solution. I already have a pump set up to do the job. This sounds very promising. Thanks.

Jim
 
Captpete
I just watched a number of videos on Youtube about using Barnacle Buster. My local marine supplier has it in stock. Next week, after a short weekend cruise, I'll set it up and run a flush. Hopefully this will be a rather inexpensive solution to my engine's problems. Thanks again for the lead. I'll post the results when I'm done.

Jim
 
I have personal experience with RYDLIME I used it in my Sabre Md7A engine Got a 12V pump from Harbor freight Hooked the engine water out to a 5 gal bucket and engine water in to the same bucket removed the impeller and thermostat the process was 4 days first day it was mud color . Each day the water got lighter color till clear at 4 days. Than my engine that used to run hot would not get with in 20 degrees of normal ! As I remember i used 4 gallons of the stuff.
Oh by the end of 4 days the acid in the chemical had eaten the harbor freight pump , I took it back and they gave me another ! LOL !!
 
jimcleary said:
John
You mention the muffler. Mine is the standard fiberglass tank (appox 12"high x 12" dia). There is no way to get inside the tank to inspect. Both the intake and outtake hoses have been either replaced or flushed and inspected. What could go wrong with it? With 2" inlet and outlets, I can't imagine it being clogged. What are your thoughts?

Jim
Click to expand...
Jim, I didn't think the hose or muffler were clogged but rather was thinking if you had white smoke/steam coming out the exhaust then you were likely getting overheated inside the exhaust hoses and they could possibly be damaged/compromised... I didn't think they would be clogged.
Barnacle Buster is good stuff. On my air conditioner, I had the strainer and pump/hose to my a/c barely emitting but a trickle of water so I knew it would be getting hot in the a/c unit and the culprit was likely to be marine growth. So I ran Barnacle Buster thru the strainer and to the a/c unit.... in less than 3-5 minutes, it was pumping a good hearty stream again.... whew! A couple of years ago I took the brass tube cluster out of my heat exchanger and let it sit in a buck of mixed Barnacle Buster. It didn't look like it had anything growing on it but the stuff that cleaned off of it was amazing...
 
John
The hose from the mixing valve to the muffler is brand new. The hose from the muffler to the thru hull is only a few years old and on inspection, appears in good shape. I am assuming that the muffler is a simple tank with a baffle or two that really can't fail unless it is leaking. That brings me back to the engine itself. I'll run the Barnacle Buster through the salt water side this week to see how that works. If that isn't the answer, I'll drain the antifreeze from the freshwater side and run the engine with vinegar.
Today we sailed off our mooring, sailed 12 miles to a nearby harbor, then dropped the hook under sail. If we can keep this up we won't need an engine at all. If wishes were ......

Jim
 
i think sailing off of a mooring is nirvana... no anchor to pull, wind in the sails to propel you right away and, well, it just doesn't get any better than that!
 
John
You are right. Today we waited till the wind came up from the south at noon then sailed back home. Ran the engine while we raised the anchor and when we picked up our mooring. I'm getting worried that I'm not getting enough engine time to find my problem. Oh well, the sailing is too good to pass up.

Jim
 
Today I finally had the time to run the Barnacle Buster through the engine. A much simpler task than I expected. With the impeller removed and the cover screwed back on the stuff was pumped thru the salt water side for 4 hours. Came out black as night so it must have removed lots of gunk. I'll know if it helped this weekend when we're out and about. Haven't seen any white exhaust for a while now.

Jim
 
Here is a photo of the Barnacle Buster at work.

Jim
 

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Bonnie and I are just finishing up a 2 1/2 week summer cruise this weekend. Block Island, Newport and Mystic Seaport, in that order. While on Block Island, we met up with other Morgan 38's, "Southerly" with Larry and Deanna Hume, and "Njord" with Jay and Elaine Green. As of today, we have traveled 585 nm this summer and put 85 hours on the Yanmar. I'm very happy to say that we have not had a drop of white exhaust from the engine. At least since the Barnacle Buster was run through. So I'd like to thank Capt Pete for his lead and recommendation of the Barnacle Buster. It saved me a great deal of time and money.

Jim
 
That's great news Jim. Glad the magic elixir made a difference for you. Sounds like you know how to use your boat!
 
Pete
It's not that we know how to use the boat, it's more that the boat knows how to take care of us. We have owned her for 29 years and it's been a good relationship. Thanks again!

Jim
 
Jim: Sounds great, hope it stays that way. I used Rydlime last summer at a friend's recommendation and run much cooler now. Still worry about the manifold though.
Dick
 
Dick
I'm almost worried that it is running too cool. The temp gauge barely gets above 150 degrees now. I think ideal is between 160 + 170. I do worry about the manifold. But I also believe in the adage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And at $900 for another manifold, I'll happily live by that. How has your summer been?

Jim
 
Jim
Broke right nebula(spell) arm on 7/24 so only projects to now. Splint of today and 1 daughter/husband and 3 grandsons here this weekend. Things will get better.

Dick
 
Yeah...gee...my wife broke her arm in two has metal titanium in it now, I broke three ribs week later, she just broke her toe three weeks ago...all on our lovely boat ...not a good day of sailing unless ya broke sumpin'!
 
Dick
Sounds like you guys need some rubber coated non-skid. The last time we had a dodger built, they installed what I call our geriatric handles on the sides and back. Best things since sliced bread.

Jim
 
Jim also should've said in my earlier post, my problem was not on the boat but in the kitchen at the house. ripid turn, instability, and the Corian countertop won.

Dick
 
Jim:C
Bought winter stuff from Niemic Marine in New Bedford today(Yanmar N.E. partsdistributer). Filters etc. Asked about the price of the manifold(9 now available). Current price(sit down) $1823.01.
Dick
 
Dick
Not a bad markup for a part that cost less than $50 to manufacture. I'm very happy that it turns out that mine is still good. If it does fail at some point, it'll be time for a new engine. The price I was given 6 months ago was about $900. Guess that's what you call inflation.

Jim
 
Dave
The value of a "boat unit" is rising in leaps and bounds. I don't know how long we can keep up. It will be soon back to the only people able to afford sailing will be the 1%.

Jim
 
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