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Repower or recondition?

T

tcarey

Tony Carey
Hey gang,
I have only seen one or 2 guys who have repowered their older 382's.
I'm in a dilemna here - 25 yr old Yanmar 3QM30F that did well for me on 2 trans-At's and from the Carib all the way back to the Chesapeake. It became quite a chore to fight the rusting. Now the actual rear engine seal is leaking (I replaced the tranny seal)...
so I called around for a rebuild - average price in this area has been $4800 not including pull and install.
I've searched the web ad infinitum until the wee hours of several nights and really can't decide what to do.
A completed rebuild and installation with quite a bit of my particapation will run around $5-6k.
I've got a deal offered on a Nanni Kubota based engine for $7k.
Homework says that Beta, Vetus and several others to include now Westerbeke are doing the Kubota based diesels. Yanmar of course would run around $8500 for the engine alone...yuk...

Question - does anyone have any feedback on the Kubota based engines? They say parts are really easy and cheap to get - far cheaper than Yanmar.

Comments, concerns, and your always wonderful insight are greatly appreciated.

Tony
S/V Papeche
 
Tony,

I don't know a whole lot about them but the Kubota engines are getting pretty popular. I believe they are even used in tractors world wide now. I have no idea on how well they hold up though.

I think I'd skip the rebuild and go with a new engine if possible. Years ago I rebuilt my old MD2B and regretted it. It's only going to get harder over time to find parts for the 25 yr old Yanmar 3QM30F. I'll bet that by the time its rebuilt and you end up replacing lots of stuff you hadn't planned on replacing, it will have cost pretty close to 70-80% of the cost of a new one anyway.

Did the $5-6k include the transmission or do you use your old one?
 
Tony: I have recently posted some stuff on this subject. I have purchased a new manifold for my 3QM30 and have verified that the new Yanmar transmission can be adapted to fit if necessary. These are the major things I would expect trouble from. I know Old Port Launch in Newport R.I. had 25,000 hours on a 3QM30 and had not done any rebuild on it. That engine however is now retired. I think it depends on the problems you are having and how the engine starts and runs. This is not an easy decission as the bed rebuilds etc that come with a new engine will also add to the cost.

Good luck and let us know what you decide

Dick
 
Tony, six years ago I repowered our '79 382 with a new Yanmar 3JH. I had pulled the 3QM with the idea of a rebuild, but when I got it to the shop and they disassembled it, it was beyond repair (mainly from rust). The 3JH has been fine, but it has a major design flaw. The raw water pump impeller, instead of being right up front and readily accessible, faces aft in the back of the water pump housing, rather low on the port side, with the starter not far behind it. When the impeller goes (and I've had it happen because of grass or something blocking the intake), it's not a quick fix. You don't sound inclined to go with Yanmar, but think about access to the impeller if you change your mind. In any case, I'd recommend a new engine. One advantage to the Yanmar was that it fit on the existing stringers; no structural rebuilds to add to cost and time. I did the whole job myself, dockside, hoisting the engines in and out with the boom. That way the cost was very reasonable.
 
Very wise words thank you.
I've put the order on the NanniDiesel 40hp based on the Kubota base. My 3QM is so rusty. I've had fun pulling out 25 yrs of wiring repairs and spaghetti! I had 3 wires that has 3 different colors of spliced in stuff not counting the spliced in fuses that are blue wired.
The new engine will fit with no mods necessary. The feet are about 2.5 in longer but the overall engine is the same length.
The research proved that most engines other than Yanmar on the market today are using Kubota base engines to include - BETA, VETUS, some Westerbeke and Universals (as well as Mitsubishi& Toyota). The bennies to all these engines are that they've be marinized specifically for front access because of 95% of sailboat access is from the front. Marinization is a heat exchanger so that sea water never goes into the engine at all, only to the bolted-on raw water pump and thru the exchanger.
All of the newer engines to include the new Yanmars have even figured out to put a small hand-sump pump with hose that goes to the back bottom of the oil sump. All have impellers, raw and fresh water pumps, fuel bleeding points & filter, oil filter and belts accessible from the front.
The NanniDiesel won the bid because of several criteria:
-Kubota parts are universal farming equipment and a fraction of the cost of dedicated Yanmar parts (argument is of course how often do you replace them...)((A fresh water pump on my 3QM is $600, the Jabsco standard pump is $175...need I say more.)) Kubota parts are standard automotive parts too - belts etc are common.
-I really liked the compactness of the engine; it's about 2" shorter in height than my QM.
-4 cylinders <3000rpm and drastic reduction in db's - I believe it was 73 to my over 100 for the 3QM. All this is of course smoother and less vibration.
-Our friend Vic put a 37hp BETA and went up to 43hp. Nanni discontinued the 43 for the 40 due to weight ratios. He really likes his 40+.
-Nanni is being installed on all new Morris's built in NE as well as several interesting new EU boats (Beneteau, Fontaine Pajot etc) to include motor vessels (ApresMare and Beneteau).
The Nanni is built in France and Italy, thus closing in on the Yanmar market and heavily tariffed import taxes.
-last but least- I got a steal of a price because of my Capt Assoc. affiliation, so the guy's giving me better than boat show price for a fully equiped engine to include entire electrical harness, C3 top line engine panel with TwinDisk Hydrolic gear box ($1k savings right there) etc.
Let's call it professional courtesy and free advertising. He's even throwing in full inspection and final setting of the shaft etc.

That's the update so far. Note the Yanmar parts for sale should you be needing stuff. I've got lots of left-over new stuff from my trans-AT.

Will keep you posted and will post pics after.
More fun to come...
 
Tony: My Catalina 38 has a Kabuta block used by Universal now Weterbeke to replace the Atomic four, it is a 3 cylinder tractor engine marinized by Universal and is 22 years old so I think they hold up pretty well. It is the 5424 model only 24 HP but is fine on that boat. The filter etc parts are all available at auto stores, just make sure you get the auto part #s as that is not easy to get later.

Good luck and thanks for sharing the information

Dick Kilroy
 
Tony, let us know how it works out. It sounds like a good choice and I am glad to hear of your research. I love my Perkins 4-108 and I hope I never have to replace it, but I also wish more of the critical pieces were right up front rather than along the side where it is hard to access. I spent four hours working alongside with a highly paid mechanic this summer replacing a cooling system drain spigot on the starboard side--just where you couldn't reach it with any normal tool.
 
My old Perkins 4-108 is smoking and I am afarid on its last leg. Has anyone repowered their 384 and if so what engine did they install? I am some what familar with the Yanmar but I was wondering what other options are available? Is there a replacement engine that will bolt up to the old tranny with minimum instalation modifications?

Tom
 
guys - I have to report that I'm very impressed with the Nanni Diesel. It went in right on the same bed - no mods whatsoever.
I bought the 40hp engine for $7700. I replaced the shaft, cutlass and put in a dripless system - I replaced my whole exhaust system too. I think I totalled the job at $9300 which also included the mech time to come "finalize" the install, which is where I made him do the alignment to be sure.
I'll post some pics.

15917.jpg


15918.jpg

and here's the new pedestal

15919.jpg
 
Tom,

The 4-108 is a very strong engine. If it holds oil pressure when hot and doesent make a sort of "clanging" noise then the rods and bearings are still good.

If it has good compression, the top is still good. Low compression is likely to be a valve problem that an in place top overhaul can fix.

I believe a more probable cause of smoke to be the injectors or the injector pump.

Why not remove the injectors and/or pump and have them checked. They can be overhauled to original specs for nominal cost compared to a new engine.

Also, consider a remanufactured engine. You can find them on the internet and it will just drop into place. You can use all your present fittings and accessories.

Bill Buebel, 381 SHADOW
 
Tony,

Thanks for the information and the photos. I have been looking at the Nanni but have not been able to locate anyone who has some first hand experience with the engine. Kubota is bullet proof and Nanni seems to have the set up right. I would be looking for something closer to 50 hp.

Alan,

Thanks for the web ink I will check it out; one can not have too much information before spending lots of money. A friend of mine just installed a Yanmar and it is so quite and vibration free compared to my Perkins; but then again 22 years old verses new.

Bill,

The Perkins is a great engine and I expect it will continue to run for sometime to come with a little pampering and oil. It currently uses about 1 quart for every 12 to 14 hours of run time. Not that bad but the usage is increasing.

I could rebuilt but it is my undertanding that you could almost purchase a new engine for the price of a rebuild.

My long term plans in a year or two are to sail the boat to Mexico then bounce down the cost to Bonaire and then back home to Texas. With that much engine time I would feel more comfortable with a engine that is not using so much oil and does not have 4,000 + hours of run time on the tach; not sure how much before tach was changed.

Thanks to all of you for your imput. Repowering is expensive and you want to get right the first time.

Tom
 
Another thing to consider is service and parts availibilty where you live and where you plan to sail.
 
More on Perkins: Since this conversation started, here is my question. I have a 4-108 with unknown hours. It always starts and runs very well. It leaks some oil, but that is no problem. I think when run hard it burns about a quart of oil in 24 hours, which I am willing to accept. But.... it seems to put a little bit of oil (fuel? lube?, I don't know) out of the exhaust. I feel terrible in some of the little coves I enter to idle in, anchor, and then see an admittedly small, but noticeable slick behind the boat. Can someone tell me why I have this slick. Is this unburned fuel? Is it exhaust condensing back into oil? Is there a way to correct this problem. Other than this, then engine is super reliable and efficient. thanks.
 
You may have a bad injector pump or injectors. Injectors are easy to rebuild or replace. The pump is more difficult!
 
Alan et al,
I can assure you the 40hp is plenty of juice for the boat and it fits on the Yanmar OEM bed.
Here's the link to the company that imports the engines. Klaus Hans is the importer and the companies name is Waterway Diesel. He claimed at the boat show that he now has over 35 other distributors signing up throughout the country.

http://www.waterwaypowercenter.com/

it's a chincy website under construction and you can email him...
better to go to
http://www.nannidiesel.com/english/index.htm

In ref to Jim's good comment on parts availability - that is why I bought this engine over others - it's a farm Kubota that is sold worldwide. The parts are universal to all Kubotas and a far cry from the cost of Yanmar etc. That was one of the primary deciding factors for this purchase.
 
We are replacing the Perkins 4-108 with a Yanmar 4JH5E. It is a near drop-in replacement.
It weighs 160 pounds less than the Perkins. The Yanmar guys had to raise the engine bed 2.25", an easy modification.
No change in shaft length, but we went to an 18 inch prop. It may be a bit of overkill, but it will keep us out of trouble.

Cheers,

Tim
 
You may have a problem with Cavitation with the 18" unless the Yanmar rep said it is okay within the aperture. Size and pitch are critical in the Morgan.
Jim
 
Each engine is different, with different power curves and pitch recommendations based on the vessel and it's design requirements.

http://www.boatfix.com/how/props.html
 
Jim,

I understand. The engine installation includes an in-water sea trial for that reason.

Thomas,

What is the pitch on your prop? Thanks.

Tim
 
18" prop is very close to the hull if I remember correctly. The faster the prop rotates the more more noise/cavitation. The bigger prop also means more drag if it is fixed. This is a again, a personal choice.
 
Jim,

I have been scratching my head about it.
Everything I see on the web is that the tip clearance should be between 1/5 and 1/6 of the prop diameter.
In this case, around three inches. We will see.

btw, since the exhuast for this engine is larger, the engine guy had to drill through the hull with a hole saw.
In the picture the hole diameter is 3 and 1/4", and the hull thickness is about 1 and 1/2". Pretty impressive.


18752.jpg
 
Tom,

Now, that is interesting. Everything I see on the web for an 18" inch prop has a pitch closer to 12.
Also, do you notice any noise/cavitation from your prop? I really appreciate your help.

I will run all this by the engine guy. The very last thing anyone wants to do is lug the engine. It is certain death.
We will make sure that the engine reaches the desired RPM during the in-water test.

All this propeller stuff seems to be witchcraft.

Tim
 
At 18" D, what did you measure the remaining opening to be? As I said, the bigger the prop, the more drag when you are not motoring. The lesser the distance between the prop and the hull, will mean cativation and noise. Again, a personal choice. Pitch, 11 or 12 is not a big difference, diameter is however. Prop size is not really witchcraft, but should determined by the engine, aperture area, and sailing preferences along with professional recommendations.
Jim
 
Tim,
You are correct, it is 18 x 12. Here is a photo when I first pulled the boat this past spring to do a bottom job.


18755.jpg
 
Tom,

It looks like there is good clearance, but in the photo the prop is not rotated so that a blade is vertical. Of course, when you haul your boat, you just take a photo and move on.
My old prop has been removed. Tomorrow, I will measure the distance from the shaft up to the hull. From that distance I should be able to see what I have for clearance.
In any case, we will try the 18" and see what happens. Thanks so much for the photo. All information is good information.

Jim,

From what I have read you are correct. Diameter is the big driver here.
I have heard propeller cavitation before, and it is unmistakable.
We will see what happens when we try this prop out. I hope that my experience will be of benefit to this board.

Tim
 
The Archives are a great source of valuable information. A lot of what we discuss now, has been posted before. It is only a simple search to find.
 
Jim,

I know the 16 x 11 propeller is standard. I understand. However, it looks like Tom has had no problems.

Tim
 
Then go for it if all, engine and transmission specs support it! In the past, 17 inch was considered the max. Again, a personal decision if you are okay with increased drag and cavitation at increased prop speeds. Good luck with your choice.
 
Nowhere in this discussion has blade number been mentioned. Tom's picture is a 3 blade. I think when Morgan went to Perkins they went to a 3 blade prop.

I have a 2 blade 18 inch, I think it's 12 bitch not sure (boat in water)on my Yanmar 3QM30. Been there for 35 years, works fine.

Dick
 
The Yanmar can use either a 2 blade or 3 blade prop, each has pros and cons and usually is 11 or 12 degrees; choose your diameter. Do you sail a lot, or motor a great deal? I have not heard of many using a 4 bladed prop due to the increased drag. Blade #?

Certainly going with a feathering prop is an option, but with increased cost and maintenance.

Just another choice depending on your wallet!
Jim
 
Hey
Jim Your rudder mod looks different than mine...
Your rudder (in the picture) is longer below the skeg. It does not go above as seen in the accompanying images.
I have the 5'4"-6" keel. What do you know about the modification to the rudder. I does seem like the longer version would make more sense than the version I have?
By the way where did you get that crazy purple/lavender color bottom paint...San Francisco eh?!

18769.jpg


18770.png
 
John -

I think Jim's bottom is white (on his boat, at least!) It's just the angle at which the picture was taken.

A year ago, I swapped out my 3 16" fixed blade with 11 pitch with a four blade 17 inch feathering prop. Since I'm in Long Island Sound with typically light winds in the summer, I've noticed a marked difference in the ability to sail in light breezes - and go faster in stronger winds, of course. It really makes a difference.

And manuvuering under power is also a lot easier, especially in reverse.

The only rub was the cost, both for the prop and the installation (I had to lift the engine up and out).

The maintenance isn't too daunting - just have to inject grease in it every winter (and coat it with propspeed every spring, of course.)
 
It is called Shark White John. The rudder modification adds area where I thought, would be needed most.
Jim
 
I might look into that. We've got the big race going on here this Saturday. Got second place a couple years ago. Storms predicted though 20-30 knots we should do well!!!
 
John,
Jims boat is 6' draft. I think you want your keel to touch before rudder.... The factory 383/4 mod was to add to the top of the rudder, No?

But we digress on an engine replacement thread?
 
Does my mod look like the right one?
That part of the rudder is often out of the water at 15-20 degrees heel.
 
All,

We did the splash and sea trial on the new Yanmar 4JH5E today. With the 18" prop she does cavitate at around 3200 RPM.
At 2500 RPM we make 6.7 knots. We will probably cruise at 2000-2200 RPM 5.9-6.2 knots. The engine is very quiet compared to the Perkins.
One thing I thought of with the new engine is that, when aground, all that power is nice for getting back off again!

So far so good.

Tim
 
What did the engine performance curve tell you? Sometimes more is overkill and results in drag, but again all is a personal choice based on your installer and factory recommendations.

If you go aground, sometimes attempting to power off can make matters worse depending on what you are on. Whatever works for you!
Jim
 
Max power is at 3000 RPM.
Halfway between 2000 and 2250 RPM a6 6 knots it burns 3 liters per hour, about 7.5 mpg.
 
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