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Removing/reinstalling steering quadrant

bluesbyrd

bluesbyrd

Chris Langton
I am about to repack my rudder stuffing box. The threads on this forum relating to this task strongly recommend removing the steering quadrant first.

So - any suggestions or "words from the wise" on doing this and reinstalling it?

I am going to do the re-packing with the boat in the water.

Chris Langton

Morgan 382 "Stargazer"
 
Take pictures prior to and during the dis-assembly. If run into questions during the re-assembly then the images are a wonderful resource.

Inspect the steering cables for fraying, wear. etc. If they need to be replaced now is the time to do it.

During re-assembly use Tef-Gel at any point where stainless steel fasteners or components are in contact with the aluminum quadrant.

Hope the project goes well.

Jeff
 
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Good luck, Chris ... it's really not too bad. I'd second Jeff's recommendation for photos. And depending on your size & flexibility, maybe bring along a small person who is also a contortionist. I have no idea how some folks did this without taking the quadrant off. I'm guessing they have a different quadrant than we have.

I'd use the GFO material.

Here's our blog entry on the task:
http://readyabout.net/?p=10
 
Jeff and Mark ..

Good suggestions - and Mark's blog post is very helpful.

I have a different quadrant ...looks like a quarter circle, open in the middle (that is, it has two arms at 90 degrees connected by an arc). A lot more open space to work with, but I still need to get the stuffing-box cap completely off the shaft, so the quadrant must come off.

Also, the top of my stuffing box is definitely *below* the water line (water is coming in all the time - hence the need to repack...). Perhaps it's the 40 gals of diesel and the 100 gals of water in the tanks?
Anyway, I'm going to want to work quick once I get the cap off, and have a friend standing by with a trash pump!!!

Thanks again for the tips. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Chris
 
OK!

With the help of a friend who is much more flexible than me, the task is done, and went surprisingly smoothly.

The steering quadrant incorporates a split-collar around the rudder post, so it comes apart in two halves, easily removable. Watch out for the "key" which will fall out and make a break for the bottom of the bilge.

The packing nut on the stuffing box had been tightened so hard that it took a large pipe-wrench and a small sledge hammer to loosen it up enough to remove.

Since the top of my stuffing box is about 4" below the waterline, I had prepared a temporary seal consisting of some rag-wadding and a shaft-zinc to cram down onto the open top of the stuffing box to stem the feared in-rush of water.

However, even with the packing nut off, water only dribbled in at a very slow rate, so I didn't need the temporary seal.

After removing the old, rock-hard packing, cleaning up the nut and the threads, and installing 3 layers of new 1/2" PTFE-infused flax, well tamped down, there was only about 1/8" of nut-thread exposed above the packing,

This is not enough clearance to allow the nut threads to engage the stuffing box threads, as there is a rubber seal hugging the rudder shaft in the stuffing box that stands about 1/8" proud of the lip.

The solution was to cut the top layer of the 1/2" flax packing in half, so that it was still 1/2" wide, but only 1/4" deep. This allowed the threads to engage, after which a few full rotations brought the packing nut to a good stiff resistance.

No water dribbling in now!

As other people have noted, I can't imagine doing this job without removing the steering quadrant.

It seems essential to remove the packing nut completely from the rudder shaft in order to get the old packing out, clean up the nut and threads, and re-pack with new stuffing.

I'll reinstall the quadrant and take Stargazer out to put the rudder under load, and adjust the packing nut as required.

The only tough part about this job is that the stuffing box is *just* out of arm's reach down in the stern cockpit locker - so you have to kind of dive head first into the locker, supporting yourself by your stomach muscles on the lip of the locker. Ouch! And very awkward...

Does every sailboat design team employ a sadist who figures out diabolical ways to put essential maintenance tasks just a couple of inches out of reach for a person hanging upside down, suspended by his toes, with his head in the bilge water?

Thanks again for the advice folks!

Chris
 
Chris
A couple of tips. A chain wrench with a 12 to 14" handle is a little easier to work than a pipe wrench in those tight quarters. And one of those square throw cushions laid over the lip of the locker will save your stomach muscles.

Jim
 
Chris - the rubber seal may not be standard equipent. (at least I didn't see one on my boat/383).
Is it dropped in from top of shaft or is it outside between the rudder & hull? Anyway, I got three full rings in and had to lightly tap the nut to engage the threads. No cutting. I used Jim's chain wrench method & now own two 24" 1/2 drive extensions.
I need a picture of your friend who can fit down in there!
And yes, there are always designed in torture chambers on boats. Its some sort of perverse yacht designer contest.
Dave
 
Jim - well, I was exaggerating a mite for dramatic effect! I actually wore one of those simple orange life-preservers as a cushion. The big pipe wrench was absolutely necessary for the long lever-arm to whack against with the sledge-hammer. Some earlier owner obviously just kept tightening the packing nut until it simply wouldn't turn anymore - it took a good deal of force to get it loose. Once loose however, it easily spun off by hand.

Dave - in my stuffing box - on a 382 - there is a rubber "seal" hugging the rudder shaft itself inside the lower portion of the box. I don't know whether it is original or not, but I notice that the old, rock-hard packing I took out consisted of two rings of 1/2" square packing and one final ring that is smaller - 7/16 or 3/8 - probably to accomodate that rubber seal, which, as I mentioned, stood 1/8" to 1/4" proud of the top of the stuffing box itself. We had a 200 pound person bearing his full weight on the nut but could not get the threads to engage. Hence the solution of cutting the final 1/2" layer in half horizontally.

Not a drip so far from the stuffing box. I've exercised the rudder vigorously with the emergency tiller, but I still have to replace the steering quadrant, take Stargazer out and put the rudder under load.

Chris
 
Steering quadrant back on!

The quadrant is back on - pretty straight-forward except for one final "issue."

I have the Orion steering set up.

The sheathed cables both terminate on the port side at an aluminum plate apparatus which extends athwart ship at the bottom fore-edge of the helm-locker.

The wire ropes then extend to the quadrant as follows:

The cable that attaches to the starboard side of the quadrant wraps in a groove around the arc of the quadrant to an anchoring eye-bolt on the starboard side. Simple.

However, the cable that attaches to the port side of the quadrant first runs athwart ship to a horizontal sheave incorporated into the aluminum-plate apparatus over on the starboard side, takes a 180 degree turn around this sheave, and thence back around the arc in a separate groove to an anchoring eyebolt on the port side.

Here's the "issue:"

It is critical that the cable gets relocated back onto that sheave!

it will fall off of it when you un-anchor the cable eye-bolts to remove the quadrant.

Since all of this is out of sight and - again! - virtually out of reach, you have to work all this out by the "eyeballs" on your fingertips.

I ended up laying the cable into the sheave and holding it there with blue masking-tape until I could re-anchor the cable eye-bolts.

It takes all four of your arms to hold the cable in the groove of the sheave, hold the cable in the groove of the quadrant arc, and install and snug up the nuts on the anchoring eye-bolt.

Blue tape makes it possible, and easily tears away when the job is done.

One other tip: before you remove the quadrant, run a "sharpie" around the rudder-shaft right at the top surface of the quadrant, so you have a mark showing you where to reset the quadrant.

Re-tension the steering cables to just a hint of slack, and remember to tighten the locking-nuts on the anchoring eye-bolts.

Just need to give it a sea trial, and then cover everything back up.

And Jeff - I used TEF-GEL at every aluminum/steel interface - good suggestion.

Chris
 
Well, " smoothly" for a boat job ... Which means: it could have been a lot worse!

Fortunately, I was well prepared with a good supply of marine cuss-words. I believe you can get them from Jamestown in either standard or metric.

Properly applied, they will prevent important parts of the boat from being heaved as far out into the channel as you can toss them ....

;-)

Chris
 
Chris
When I first learned to sail, I had to learn a new language to describe the parts of the boat. When I then owned a boat and had to do the repair work, I found I had to learn another new language. Both are very colorful.

Jim
 
One of my favorite books of all time is Grey Sea Under, by Farley Mowat. It recounts the exploits of a steam driven salvage tug based in Halifax in the first half of the 20th century. Occasionally the chain controls would come off the steering quadrant, always in the midst of a gale or near hurricane. The description of the crew trying to reengage the chain as the ship wallowed out of control in the seas, the quadrant swung wildly as the ship pitched and rolled , and the waves crashed over the aft deck grating, under which the quadrant was located, will stay with me forever. We have it easy.
 
Terry
Also one of my favorite books from one of my favorite authors. From a time when men understood the sea and their limitations. Did you ever read " The Boat Who Wouldn't Float?

Jim
 
Ah!

Now this is a great topic!

Favorite sea-stories, books, authors ......

A bit of a digression from steering quadrants, their removal and replacement ...

But it's still about steering, no?

My favorites:

"The Riddle of the Sands" by Erskine Childers - written pre-World War I, and very prescient - a great sailboat mystery/adventure.

"Two Years Before the Mast" by Henry Dana - everybody should read this book about a sailing voyage to the pre gold-rush California coast.

Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin's series - 20 books in which he totally immerses the reader in the rich and vivid nautical universe that was the British Royal Navy during and after the Napoleanic wars. Full to the gunnels with technical, square-rig fighting-ship geekery.

And, last, but not least ...

"Moby Dick" by Herman Melville - there is no other author who gets the mystical essence of the sea like Melville.

To wit:

"No mercy, no power but its own controls it.

Panting and snorting like a mad battle steed that has lost
its rider, the masterless ocean overruns the globe.

Consider all this; and then turn to this green, gentle,
and most docile earth; consider them both, the sea and the
land; and do you not find a strange analogy to something
in yourself?

For as this appalling ocean surrounds the verdant land,
so in the soul of man there lies one insular Tahiti, full of
peace and joy, but encompassed by all the horrors of the
half known life.

God keep thee!

Push not off from that isle, thou canst never return!"
 
bluesbyrd said:
Well, " smoothly" for a boat job ... Which means: it could have been a lot worse!

Fortunately, I was well prepared with a good supply of marine cuss-words. I believe you can get them from Jamestown in either standard or metric.

Properly applied, they will prevent important parts of the boat from being heaved as far out into the channel as you can toss them ....

;-)

Chris
Click to expand...
bluesbyrd said:
Steering quadrant back on!

The quadrant is back on - pretty straight-forward except for one final "issue."

I have the Orion steering set up.

The sheathed cables both terminate on the port side at an aluminum plate apparatus which extends athwart ship at the bottom fore-edge of the helm-locker.

The wire ropes then extend to the quadrant as follows:

The cable that attaches to the starboard side of the quadrant wraps in a groove around the arc of the quadrant to an anchoring eye-bolt on the starboard side. Simple.

However, the cable that attaches to the port side of the quadrant first runs athwart ship to a horizontal sheave incorporated into the aluminum-plate apparatus over on the starboard side, takes a 180 degree turn around this sheave, and thence back around the arc in a separate groove to an anchoring eyebolt on the port side.

Here's the "issue:"

It is critical that the cable gets relocated back onto that sheave!

it will fall off of it when you un-anchor the cable eye-bolts to remove the quadrant.

Since all of this is out of sight and - again! - virtually out of reach, you have to work all this out by the "eyeballs" on your fingertips.

I ended up laying the cable into the sheave and holding it there with blue masking-tape until I could re-anchor the cable eye-bolts.

It takes all four of your arms to hold the cable in the groove of the sheave, hold the cable in the groove of the quadrant arc, and install and snug up the nuts on the anchoring eye-bolt.

Blue tape makes it possible, and easily tears away when the job is done.

One other tip: before you remove the quadrant, run a "sharpie" around the rudder-shaft right at the top surface of the quadrant, so you have a mark showing you where to reset the quadrant.

Re-tension the steering cables to just a hint of slack, and remember to tighten the locking-nuts on the anchoring eye-bolts.

Just need to give it a sea trial, and then cover everything back up.

And Jeff - I used TEF-GEL at every aluminum/steel interface - good suggestion.

Chris
Click to expand...
Chris & Jeff, Does the cable that goes through the sheave ride on the upper quadrant groove out of the sheave or the lower quadrant groove? Thanks, Geoff
 
Geoff,

Don't recall having two grooves in Pilgrim's quadrant. The only images I have were taken from above and do not provide any detail on the profile of the quadrant. I will look at it tomorrow to see if that jogs my memory.
 
Geoff ...

Sorry for the delayed response - I've been offline for a while - a good thing to do from time to time ...

This is a good question ...

The answer is: it depends on where your quadrant is set on the rudder shaft - how high-up relative to the horizontal plane defined by the point at which the steering cables exit their sheaths.

As I said above, you have to figure out the geometry of all this with the "eyeballs" on your fingertips, because it is all out of sight and *almost* out of reach.

Rather than giving a dogmatic answer, I will just say that you need to work it out for your own situation. (I think this is a general boat-work "truth:" take whatever "solution" is offered with a grain of salt, and ascertain for sure that it is correct for your particular case.. Ronald Reagan's "Trust but Verify!")

Whichever geometry you choose, you have to satisfy yourself that the cables do not cross each other's path, and grind against each other, throughout a full spin of the wheel.

I have mine set so that the "easy run" - the cable that anchors on the starboard side - occupies the lower groove of the quadrant-arc, while the "more complicated run" turns about the sheave and returns to occupy the upper groove on the quadrant arc, before anchoring on the port side.

Determine that the cables run clear of each other by feeling their full run while turning the wheel lock-to-lock.

Hope this helps!

Chris
 
Geoff and Jeff

Here are a couple of pictures of a quadrant like mine (not mine, but mine looks just like this one).

The first picture shows the split collar, the two orthogonal arms, and the arc. The two tangs angling off of the lower collar-piece are the anchor points for the steering cables, once they come out of the grooves in the arc, paralleling the arms.

The second picture shows the two grooves in the arc.


image.jpg





image.jpg
 
Hi Jeff

Stargazer is a 1978 M382, hull # 30.

The steering system is by Orion. I believe it is original, but don't know for sure.

Cheers!

Chris
 
Thomas you have hull #14, correct? Chris has hull #30. Both vessels have the Orion quadrant.
We have hull #115 and Edson quadrant / steering system. I know some later models also have the Edson system.
I'm guessing Morgan began using the Orion quadrant and switched to the Edson somewhere between #30 & #115
 
Right - well, no clear pattern there ...

I'm going to hazard a guess that it was down to a supply-chain issue: neither Edson nor Orion could supply them with enough steering systems per month to keep up with the rate at which they wanted to fit-out hulls, so they kept permanent orders on file with both manufacturers and put in whatever versions they had on hand that week. It's a fairly common problem in industrial production - it always pays to have multiple suppliers for critical components.

Maybe a first-owner would know if the choice was an option? ...

Do we have any original owners on this forum?

Chris
 
Jeff

Your Edson quadrant has only one groove, but it runs the full circumference of a circle.

How do the steering cables run in that one groove? I.e., from where on the boat do they arrive, how do they circumnavigate the circumference, and where are they anchored?

Just curious - most quadrants I've seen on boats are actual "quadrants" - that is, quarter circles, like the Orion.

Chris
 
Chris,

The cables exit the binnacle in the engine compartment and are turned aft via an idler (a sheave for cable). The cables then pass through large holes drilled in the bulkhead below the forward edge of the helm seat.

Pilgrim's Engine Compartment Freshly Painted

Pilgrim's Engine Compartment Freshly Painted


Idlers, steering cables (hanging loose), and holes in bulkhead are visible in upper background of image above.

One cable runs in the groove in each side of the quadrant. At the aft end of the quadrant the cables wrap around a guide and feed into attachment points in the center of the quadrant.

Pilgrim's Edson D-21 Quadrant as purchased from previous owner

Pilgrim's Edson D-21 Quadrant as purchased from previous owner


The cables attach to eye bolts. The eye bolts are threaded into the quadrant and serve as tensioners for the cables.

Edson has a great wedsite with much more information and diagrams of steering systems. Here is a link: Edson Marine Sailboat Steering.

Hope this information is helpful.

Jeff
 
Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I've been reading through these posts for a couple weeks and have found a lot of great info. I just purchased a 1979 Morgan 382 and am needing to replace the original Orion steering conduit. I've talked to West Marine, the Catalina parts dept, and Edson marine but I'm not having any luck finding replacement conduit. Any suggestions for a source to find this stuff? Thanks in advance for any help!
 
Hi ... Sorry not to respond sooner, but I haven't been keeping up on boat stuff for the last few weeks.

I don't have any specific info on obtaining Orion steering system replacement parts.

I may have some info on Stargazer, but I'm currently 3,000 miles away on the east coast ... I'll look when I get back to Sausalito in a month.

All I can suggest is to keep Googling, and/or prowling the boat forums. Someone is bound to have had the same problem.

Also, check with some old-school chandleries - West Marine hasn't driven them all out of business yet.

A lot of valuable old-timer wisdom there.

Chris
 
Hi guys, thanks for the responses. None of the local shops in key west were able to help me but lewmar says their conduit/end fitting should work but will take 3 weeks to get here. I'll call teleflex tomorrow and see what they say.
 
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