New Mainsail
- Thread starter jnoble
- Start date
In February 2004 I got a full battened 7.62 main with two rows of reef points and cunningham and flattening cringles from Mack Sails in Stuart FL. The batten pockets and cars are high quality. In fact, everything is. It cost 2660 plus tax (though if you have it delivered to a non-Florida address, you can avoid the tax). We have a '79 M-382. I did the measurements myself, and Mack was able to check them against their data base and another M-382 mainsail they were building. They know the boat, so that's a big plus. Their number is 800-428-1384.
Jack
Jack
carl_miller
Carl Miller
I am trying to find a spread sheet I did in 2002 for a full-battened main and roller furl/padded luff 150% genny.It compares 10 or more M382 sail bids from all over the map. It would be a nice guide for you to see and get a feel for the variability I encountered-- it was quite shocking: prices ranged by almost a factor of 2 from low to high, and the sailmakers' features were quite different too.
As the bosses say, bottom Line up front: I settled on Haarstick in Rochester because they combined three things I wanted: best price; around $4K for both sails, no kidding, 2) they used the type of sailcloth I wanted but I am emabarrassed to say until I find my files I cannot remember its mfgr except that it was called "Dimension" fabric, and 3) Haarstick has a very rigorous incoming material qualification test they do on every lot of material which they know from experience is surprisingly variable from lot to lot. When the sails came, they fit, have a perfect shape, and although you can see the economies in things like the way the corners are sewed,and reinforced (no hand-sewn leather on these)they are lasting well after 4 seasons, and I am pretty sure this was a good decision. I was tempted by the cheaper Florida guys (and came very close to buying Mac aslo), but when I got into it, Haarstick beat the hell out of the price and I knew the quality would be there, and they had a local guy in Annapolis if there had been a problem I would have been able to lean on. (I think I found Hood at a low spot in the late 80's and got an amazing price for the main and genny...I started out wanting Hood for the next suit, and I love their sailcloth, but on the 2002 suit of sails they offered no bargain (almost the highest bidder I think) so out that went.)
I set a goal of getting 10 bids and was glad for it, and in addition it was quite educational. And of course if you can go 'round at the boat shows and let them all know you are looking at everybody and comparing stictch for stitch, they will try harder, I think. (But not all of them)
Good luck John -- and get full length battens in the main no matter what!
Carl
Courante '78 382 Annapolis
As the bosses say, bottom Line up front: I settled on Haarstick in Rochester because they combined three things I wanted: best price; around $4K for both sails, no kidding, 2) they used the type of sailcloth I wanted but I am emabarrassed to say until I find my files I cannot remember its mfgr except that it was called "Dimension" fabric, and 3) Haarstick has a very rigorous incoming material qualification test they do on every lot of material which they know from experience is surprisingly variable from lot to lot. When the sails came, they fit, have a perfect shape, and although you can see the economies in things like the way the corners are sewed,and reinforced (no hand-sewn leather on these)they are lasting well after 4 seasons, and I am pretty sure this was a good decision. I was tempted by the cheaper Florida guys (and came very close to buying Mac aslo), but when I got into it, Haarstick beat the hell out of the price and I knew the quality would be there, and they had a local guy in Annapolis if there had been a problem I would have been able to lean on. (I think I found Hood at a low spot in the late 80's and got an amazing price for the main and genny...I started out wanting Hood for the next suit, and I love their sailcloth, but on the 2002 suit of sails they offered no bargain (almost the highest bidder I think) so out that went.)
I set a goal of getting 10 bids and was glad for it, and in addition it was quite educational. And of course if you can go 'round at the boat shows and let them all know you are looking at everybody and comparing stictch for stitch, they will try harder, I think. (But not all of them)
Good luck John -- and get full length battens in the main no matter what!
Carl
Courante '78 382 Annapolis
jnoble
John Noble
There is a lot of variability in price. That combined with sails being a considerable investment is why I thought this was a good subject for this board.
I just got off the phone with Haarstick, quote forthcoming.
So far, of ~6 quotes Airforce is lowest. North and Nance and Underwood are almost $1000 higher. Mack is just down the coast 40 miles from me, and would be great for service. Their price is in the middle. Tax would increase it though.
I am getting a quote from Lee for comparison.
How about seasonal price cuts? Is their as much variability in quality as price?
A spread sheet is a good idea to keep track of all this stuff. Let me know if you find yours.
Thanks,
John
I just got off the phone with Haarstick, quote forthcoming.
So far, of ~6 quotes Airforce is lowest. North and Nance and Underwood are almost $1000 higher. Mack is just down the coast 40 miles from me, and would be great for service. Their price is in the middle. Tax would increase it though.
I am getting a quote from Lee for comparison.
How about seasonal price cuts? Is their as much variability in quality as price?
A spread sheet is a good idea to keep track of all this stuff. Let me know if you find yours.
Thanks,
John
You might also get a quote from Kappa Sails. We bought a mainsail about 6 years ago for our (then) Morgan 46. Nice sail, great quality. Don't remember price so could be hi or low. Also bought the Strong system for sail track to make it so easy for me to hoist and drop that big main. You'll have to find them with a google search since I don't have their info with me.
This is a great discussion since I, too, will be wanting to buy a new main and headsail soon.
Melinda
Celerity '80 382
This is a great discussion since I, too, will be wanting to buy a new main and headsail soon.
Melinda
Celerity '80 382
maluhia
Jim Ball
Try UK Sails: http://www.uksails.co.uk/
Jim
Jim
John,
I bought a main from Lee a few years ago. It is not a good sail, it is a great sail. Extreme high quality hand sewing, lots of leather at the wear places. Very solid headboard, etc. etc.. And it fit like a glove with a great shape. I think it's now at least 4 if not 5 years old and still looks and performs like it did when new. I have not had to tighten the luff line, so I know the fabric is not distorting and causing the pocket to move aft. At the time I made the purchace I also got quotes from just about every sailmaker you could think of. The quotes ran from $3400. down to $2600.. I paid $1100. for the Lee mainsail. I'm still jumping for joy at the extreme fine quality I received for the bargin price I paid. But that's all changed now. I called them in January of last year, 05 for a quote for a new genoa. The quote was within $200. of everyone else. It seems that the devaluation of our American dollar has leveled the playing field, price wise. I think that's what Bush intended. If the price is the same, buy American. The job you save might be your own.
Larry
I bought a main from Lee a few years ago. It is not a good sail, it is a great sail. Extreme high quality hand sewing, lots of leather at the wear places. Very solid headboard, etc. etc.. And it fit like a glove with a great shape. I think it's now at least 4 if not 5 years old and still looks and performs like it did when new. I have not had to tighten the luff line, so I know the fabric is not distorting and causing the pocket to move aft. At the time I made the purchace I also got quotes from just about every sailmaker you could think of. The quotes ran from $3400. down to $2600.. I paid $1100. for the Lee mainsail. I'm still jumping for joy at the extreme fine quality I received for the bargin price I paid. But that's all changed now. I called them in January of last year, 05 for a quote for a new genoa. The quote was within $200. of everyone else. It seems that the devaluation of our American dollar has leveled the playing field, price wise. I think that's what Bush intended. If the price is the same, buy American. The job you save might be your own.
Larry
Larry (other Larry), I'm not sure what the last part of that post meant. It sounded like you were suggesting we buy Lee and then it sounded like we should buy American.
I feel this is becoming a significant issue in our lives these days. I've always been a hard believer in the idea that you should purchase based on quality and price. I have been buying Japanese cars for the past 20 years because I felt that the quality couldn't be had in American cars. If America's auto industry met the challenge and started making cars that would last like their foreign competition I'd be happy to come back. I'm now having to re-evaluate my stance. Everything is being bought out of country and we are paying a much larger price in the way of the potential devastation should there be some breakdown in US China relations. The company I work for has been moving purchases of electronic production services over seas. I understand Walmart is exclusively China only. On and on and on.
Maybe a silly discussion where it is applicable to our small demands for recreational sailing purchases, but isn't it nice having a local solution that you can visit and work with? There is absolutely no way we can produce any labor intensive product for the same or less than they can. Their labor forces work on $20 a month. That $200 savings you see costs the factory over there about $10 to make and profits the business owners over there 95% of what you pay.
I know this may be a sensitive subject for some and my apologies if I offend. I would just like to hang on to some industries and things that have to to with sailing is I guess one of them.
Larry
I feel this is becoming a significant issue in our lives these days. I've always been a hard believer in the idea that you should purchase based on quality and price. I have been buying Japanese cars for the past 20 years because I felt that the quality couldn't be had in American cars. If America's auto industry met the challenge and started making cars that would last like their foreign competition I'd be happy to come back. I'm now having to re-evaluate my stance. Everything is being bought out of country and we are paying a much larger price in the way of the potential devastation should there be some breakdown in US China relations. The company I work for has been moving purchases of electronic production services over seas. I understand Walmart is exclusively China only. On and on and on.
Maybe a silly discussion where it is applicable to our small demands for recreational sailing purchases, but isn't it nice having a local solution that you can visit and work with? There is absolutely no way we can produce any labor intensive product for the same or less than they can. Their labor forces work on $20 a month. That $200 savings you see costs the factory over there about $10 to make and profits the business owners over there 95% of what you pay.
I know this may be a sensitive subject for some and my apologies if I offend. I would just like to hang on to some industries and things that have to to with sailing is I guess one of them.
Larry
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
We need to patronize our local retailers for the things we need for our boats. If the sailing community continues to buy offshore and over the internet with the hope of saving a few dollars, then the local sailmakers and chandleries will surely fold under. American business can not compete labor that earns $1 per day and competition that is controlled by the guy with the biggest gun. Even West Marine with all their "Made in China" junk should be avoided. When an American dollar leaves this country, it doesn't come back. If we want to maintain our standard of living and that of our children, we need to rethink where and how we spend our money. Sorry, I'll step down from the soapbox now!
Jim
Jim
Wow...Okay....This is a very sensitive discussion. First let me answer Larry's question about the last part of my posting.
I believe in a free and open market place. I want to buy very high quality products at the lowest price I can. The Lee sails from China are a fine product, but they are no longer a good buy. I would buy an American sail with the same quality for the same price, give or take a few bucks. Let me quote something from the international finance and money market for you, it says a lot in just a few words. "Money goes where it is treated the best, but it prefers to go home". I would prefer to buy everything from the people in my neighborhood. It keeps my local economy thriving.
Please note, that in my case I will not sacrifice quality for price. I will and do pay considerably more for a product that is of finer quality. In some cases the word quality takes on a different meaning to different people. As an example the words "hand crafted" take on a meaning of quality. But the hand crafted product might not hold up under use as well as the same product coming off a production line. If you are looking for "pretty" you probably want handcrafted. But not necessarily for endurance.
Some of our American companies are actually international companies manufacturing parts for their end product all over the world and then assembling the product in, lets say Mexico for example. And you thought you were buying an American product. Can you grasp the idea that some guy in India is reading your xray or MRI and reporting the findings to your doctor, here in the USA? It's mind bongeling!
Okay, enough complaining. Lets return to reality. Every company producing any product is only as good as its management team. The management team job is to produce a profitable company. Note that I did not say good product. Profitable company. That's it, period. They owe that to their stockholders. And that is what matters. They will spend money to produce only as good a product as they have to in order to gain or hold market share. In some cases they will spend more money to advertise and market the product then they do to produce the product.
I could talk about this topic for hours. The bottom line is that we have to understand todays world in order to protect ourselves. We have to play the same game that the corporations that want us to buy their products do. We have to weigh quality, endurance against price. We have to go where our money is treated the best. And yes, we would like to stay home with it. But you can't stop progress.
I guess I put in more than my 2 cents, probably more like a nickel.
Larry
I believe in a free and open market place. I want to buy very high quality products at the lowest price I can. The Lee sails from China are a fine product, but they are no longer a good buy. I would buy an American sail with the same quality for the same price, give or take a few bucks. Let me quote something from the international finance and money market for you, it says a lot in just a few words. "Money goes where it is treated the best, but it prefers to go home". I would prefer to buy everything from the people in my neighborhood. It keeps my local economy thriving.
Please note, that in my case I will not sacrifice quality for price. I will and do pay considerably more for a product that is of finer quality. In some cases the word quality takes on a different meaning to different people. As an example the words "hand crafted" take on a meaning of quality. But the hand crafted product might not hold up under use as well as the same product coming off a production line. If you are looking for "pretty" you probably want handcrafted. But not necessarily for endurance.
Some of our American companies are actually international companies manufacturing parts for their end product all over the world and then assembling the product in, lets say Mexico for example. And you thought you were buying an American product. Can you grasp the idea that some guy in India is reading your xray or MRI and reporting the findings to your doctor, here in the USA? It's mind bongeling!
Okay, enough complaining. Lets return to reality. Every company producing any product is only as good as its management team. The management team job is to produce a profitable company. Note that I did not say good product. Profitable company. That's it, period. They owe that to their stockholders. And that is what matters. They will spend money to produce only as good a product as they have to in order to gain or hold market share. In some cases they will spend more money to advertise and market the product then they do to produce the product.
I could talk about this topic for hours. The bottom line is that we have to understand todays world in order to protect ourselves. We have to play the same game that the corporations that want us to buy their products do. We have to weigh quality, endurance against price. We have to go where our money is treated the best. And yes, we would like to stay home with it. But you can't stop progress.
I guess I put in more than my 2 cents, probably more like a nickel.
Larry
jnoble
John Noble
The six or so quotes I have gotten range from ~$2000 from Lee and Airforce (both made in China) to Kappa sails at $3100. North is ~$2900. Haarstick is up there too, but will discount in winter, making them competitive for a good, U.S. made sail. I may wait for the discount.
UK and Mack were in the middle, but I probably would pay sales tax.
John
UK and Mack were in the middle, but I probably would pay sales tax.
John
jnoble
John Noble
I finally got a new main, and just returned from a Bahamas trip where I broke it in. The sail was made by Kern Ferguson of Kern's Sails, Newport Beach and Costa Mesa, California. Kern makes many of the sails on Westsail 32's and other Westsails. His price is between offshore (Chinese) and major US lofts. No fancy web sites or anything like that.
I am very pleased with the sail and consider it to be a great value at the price. This guy makes only serious offshore sails. The cloth is a little heavier, well reinforced and has a deep second reef.
It performed well in light winds, but I sailed through one of those bad Bahamas T-storm blows with just the double reefed main. Sure beat dropping the main at night in a seaway! We continued on course, at 4 to 5 knots without being overpowered and even the autopilot worked great.
I recommend Kern if you are looking for a new sail. He can be reached at 949-903- 5376 or kernsails@sbcglobal.net.
I am very pleased with the sail and consider it to be a great value at the price. This guy makes only serious offshore sails. The cloth is a little heavier, well reinforced and has a deep second reef.
It performed well in light winds, but I sailed through one of those bad Bahamas T-storm blows with just the double reefed main. Sure beat dropping the main at night in a seaway! We continued on course, at 4 to 5 knots without being overpowered and even the autopilot worked great.
I recommend Kern if you are looking for a new sail. He can be reached at 949-903- 5376 or kernsails@sbcglobal.net.