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New 12V system

R

robnjoseaspell

Rob and Jo Lucey
Ahoy gang,

We're renewing/replacing our 12V power system aboard our M382 Sea Spell. We'll be installing new everything all the way up to the breakers in preparation for a cruise.

We currently have three deep cycle group 27 batteries under the quarter berth which we think are adequate for our house batteries. But we'd like to add a starter battery as a second bank. Does anyone have a good idea where to fit another battery and what size might be adequate for cranking our Perkins diesel?

We also want a new charger. It seems like some of the smart chargers incorporate features of combiners/isolators/monitors. Does anybody have any experience, good or bad, with any of those devices?

We may also look at a new higher efficiency alternator.

Finally, we're debating solar and/or wind generators. We'd love to hear any opinions on what works aboard the M38s.

To my mind, there should be a magic box that combines all of the chargine sources (alternator, shorepower charger, solar, wind) and regulates the flow from them into the separate battery banks to maintain the ideal charge at all times. I haven't found that box yet...

Our goal is an efficient cruising vessel that will be reliable for a two-year voyage. Estimated power demands will be about 200 Ah/day.

Thanks for any input! I know there are whole books on these subjects, but we're looking for any M38-specific advice fellow owners might have to offer.

Rob and Jo
Sea Spell '79
Galveston, Texas
 
Rob and Jo:
That's a pretty healthy appetite for power, but, for what whatever its worth, we just completed a power upgrade on our '94 Morgan 38. We upgraded to a 150 amp alternator w/matching new regulator, a 120 watt Kyocera solar panel and a KISS wind generator, both controlled by a multisource voltage regulator. The multisource regulator feeds the house bank consisting of two 4D wet cells. The starting battery is kept topped from an Echo charger connected to the house bank. So far, as winds and sun go in the Chesapeake Bay, our batteries are kept full, with out having to run the diesel, even with an Adler-Barbour power plate cooling two boxes. Hope that was of some help or encouragement to you.
--Wally and Linda, S/V Tropical Dream
 
ROB: I think you cannot get all you want with 3 grouop 27 batteries. and the space under the quarter berth is limited. Other owners have moved the batteries to the athwartships settee seat--where there is a drop in cabinet and two drawers. they can get the right size batteries there.
WALLY AND LINDA: How and where did you mount your solar panel and where are your 4D batteries?
 
The Oconee uses 4 6v in the original battery compartment for a total of 440 amp hours. She also carries a group 71 12v in the compartment to the stern of the orginal battery compartment as a spare cranking battery. The 6 volts have the advantage of being true deep cycle, light enought for me to lift and cheap. Both the house bank and the spare are tied together with a West combiner. I have a 125 amp alternator with 3 stage regulator and a Heart 1000 battery charger/inverter controled by a link 1000. The system has worked well aboard the Oconee.

I have done my own personal servey of wind generators over the years and plan on adding one soon. KISS would be my choice. I have talked to a number of long range cruisers and even the ones with other systems say they would replace with a KISS if they had to replace their current unit. I talked to a couple on a Whitby 42 that had been cruising for 15 years and had used a Windbugger and a Four Winds II and now had a KISS. They liked it by far the best.

Solar I have no knowledge yet. Hope this helps.

Fairwinds & Rum Drinks,

Vic C.

PS - Question: to the boat with KISS and solar what regulator did you use and why? KISS does not recommend regualtion. The couple on the Whitby added an over current alarm and just shut the unit off. Thoughts?
 
Rob,
Have you looked at the Heart Interface Pathmaker battery combiner. I installed it with a Balmar alternator/regulator, Link 2000, and Statpower charger 2 years ago and am very happy with the results. I converted the locker where the alcohol tank was for house batteries. I have radar, chartplotter, computer, and refrigeration.
Regards
RCL (Moonraker)
 
RE: 12 volt power system
Terry: We installed Kato davits on the stern and mounted the panel on the stabilizer bar across the top of the davit arms. Works great, with a forward swing angle of about 25 degrees, and an aft swing angle of 90 degrees, for adjustment to the sun. The house batteries are under the salon sole (bilge) in waterproof boxes and are easily accessible through a 2' X 2' hatch cover. The starting battery is in an adjacent compartment under the companionway steps.

Vic: We used a Hamilton Ferris multisource regulator. We read that KISS does not deem a regulator essential, but wanted the extra protection if we leave the boat unattended for several hours, a day, etc. and allow the alternative power sources to continue operating. Also, we can quickly change two wires on the terminal strips by the regulator and run the KISS directly to the batteries, if necessary. The regulator has a bypass to intermittently run or dump to other "things" - heat sink, hot water, fan, etc. In any case, I believe that if you question marine electrical experts, almost all will advise to regulate such high power alternative energy sources.
--Wally and Linda, S/V Tropical Dream
 
To all. I have recently discovered that a German company named Ballard will have a 1200 watt hydrogen proton exchange membrane fuel cell on the market in about one-two years. The cost will be initially about $2800. If you don't need the system today, I believe that there will be many more options available for making electricity in the near future. For more info take a look at www.fuelcell.org.

Jay
 
Rob and Jo,
I fit 4 group 30H 12v batteries(130 AH each) in the regular space under the quarter berth. They are fore to aft and I had to shim the back one level. I use the back one on a separate bank for starting. I am going to replace it with a large 12 V marine starting battery soon.

Has anyone heard of the Battery Shack in Marathon,FL? They make a 100 amp alterntor in a 55 amp Delco case. It has an internal regulator all for $240. I do not feel comforable installing one until I hear of others experiences.

John Noble
Noble Prize
Vero Beach, Florida
 
A comment regarding battery combiners. I had two 4D batteries that I wanted to parallel as the house bank and a West starting battery for the engine. I bought a Statpower Truecharge 20+ smart charger and a West combiner. I e-mailed some questions to Xantrex (the parent of Statpower) and was advised by the tech not to use the combiner. The charge should go into the house bank - where it is most needed - and the starting battery (which needs only a little charge most of the time) should be temporarily selected manually with the battery switches set to "Both". The idea was that if the combiner was installed, or if both banks were connected to the charger (the Truecharge 20+ can handle up to 3 banks) then the starting battery would be subjected to a (unnecessary) charge cycle every time the house bank was charged. This supposedly might shorten the life of the starting battery. Starting batteries are not expensive, so I don't know if this is a big deal. But I am concerned that a fully charged starting battery may fool the charging circuit into undercharging the house bank.
 
I believe the charger or alternator would charge the house bank to 13.25+ and then a trickle charge would be allowed to flow to the engine start battery via the Combiner or Eliminator. The house bank is always charged first. The charger is run to the house bank and not to the start battery. The combiner handles the charging of the start battery. For further information, consult Nigel Calder's "Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual"(see page 31-34).
 
Thanks everyone for some really good thoughts to consider. It seems there's a consensus on the KISS wind generator. I have their brochure and it sounded appealing to me as well.

I'm leaning toward a Professional Mariner ProTech1220 charger for shore power. Jack Rabbit Marine seems to have the best price. Has anyone used this charger or their services?

WALLY AND LINDA - Which multi-source regulator do you use? And is your wind gen on a separate davit from the solar panel? I'm envisioning a multipurpose davit that might serve both functions as well as having a hoising arm off the back of the boat...

One thing I'm curious about is how the various chargers (shore/alternator/wind/solar) cooperate with each other so that they aren't all putting different charges in at the same time. It seems like some company should make a smart regulator to sort out all of these inputs. Does such a thing exist?

JOHN - I might try your battery configuration as it seems like it would provide the desired amount of juice in the current space. Sounds like a tight fit though. Is Noble Prize (great name!) a 382? I assume our lockers are the same size.

VIC - The 6V alternative sounds tempting too. With them, do you halve the Amps to calculate the 12V equivalent? (i.e. is your 440 AH the same as 220 AH of 12V?

Thanks again for the input.
 
I don't perport to know to much about batteries.
However I just installed four group 34 Optima batteries (120 AH) under the quarter berth in my 384 and had room for one more. They are very compact, can be installed on their side, upside down what ever.
I ran accross them from a post, either on this list or the Sailnet list of a detailed battery site.

John_/)_/)_/)
 
No. No. That is 440 total 12volt amp hours not 6 volt. The link, once setup keeps track of the amps going in and the amps used. I usually re-charge at about the 190 to 200 amps left in the battery level.

Fairwinds and Cold Drinks,

Vic
 
Rob and Jo,
It is best not adding a new battery to a bank of old ones since they lose capacity as they age. If you are replacing all your batteries, you may want to consider 4 - 6V T-105's. Others have commented on them. They are supposed to be more durable than 12 V. Vic's set up sounds good in that he uses that regular box, and gets some weight on the starboard side.

Noble Prize is a 1984 M-384.

John Noble
Vero Beach, Florida
 
I spoke with some golf cart sales people, when asked which batteries they get the most life from they said either Trojan or "DECO"( spelling suspect ). Four six volt batteries appear to be the best solution for power needs on a 382. I kave mine going to a battery switch so that they can be separated into two banks, but during normal use the switch is left in the both position. A saparate starting battery can be place directly under the engine by shoving the oil pan aft. Straps to the engine mount stringers hold the battery down.
 
You can also install the start battery under the trash bin which removes it from the hot area of the engine and still puts it close to the starter.I have a group 31 in a wood battery box in this area. If it fails, there is a battery switch to combine house bank to start battery. Charging is through a Isolator/Eliminator.
 
We went with the set of four T-105s. We connected the first bank (pair) this weekend and they seem to work great so far. We'll see how they can hold up for two weeks unattended, as we're off to ride a schooner next week.

I hadn't looked at the spot under the trash bin for the starter battery. (Do ya'll have an actual bin in there? We just have the door opening through the bulkhead into the space. A cord slips through the door to plug the shorepower charger into the 110V outlet in the galley.)

I did notice what appeared to be tie downs for a battery in the forward end of the white tray under the engine. That seems like a hot spot for a battery, but it does look like there's space and it would be quite close to where the action is.

We also have what looks like a mount for something just above and starboard of that spot (next to the alternator). Was there something standard in that spot? I suspect it was an engine-driven refrigerator, a/c or something at some point.

Thanks for all of the advice from everybody. I feel like we're getting a handle on things.

R&J
Sea Spell
 
Rob and Jo:
We have a Kyocera 120 W solar panel mounted athwartship across the davit stabilizer. The KISS wind generator is mounted on the port side deck at the stern. The KISS is mounted on a Schedule 40 1 1/2" brushed anodized aluminum pole with 1" SS tubing for strut supports (purchased through Annapolis vendors), and attachment hardware purchased from E-Marine (all rubber shock mounted fittings). Both units are wired through a Hamilton Ferris Multisource Voltage Regulator. I don't know how this unit juggles the power from both energy sources, but when the batteries are sensed as full, the relay clicks and the red LED bypass indicator comes on. The batteries full indication is confirmed by a Link 10 battery monitor. Hope that explanation helps. FYI, Both Ham Ferris and the tech folks at E-Marine are very helpful on the telphone with such questions.
--Wally and Linda, S/V Tropical Dream
 
Wally and Linda,

Do you happend to have a picture of your stern setup? I'm trying to visualize it and not succeeding very well.

Rob
 
!Hola!
We are currently cruising in Trinidad and Venezuela. Since we are living aboard our 384, our power requirements are fairly large. We removed the top forward part of the quarter berth and built an interconnected series of boxes to hold 4 6v golf carts and a group 30 start battery. This arrangement is, by far, better than our old system of four 12v in two banks.

We also carry two 75-watt solar panels, gps & radar antennas and our four-winds generator on our radar arch. This arch is combined with the push pit to form a single piece arch with davits.

As you may know the Kiss wind generator is made in Trinidad, and it has an excellent reputation among cruisers there. Many remove other working generators and replace with the kiss.

Have a great summer everyone!
 
Many of us would like to know what it means to "remove the top, forward part of the quarterberth." Did you eliminate the berth and the chart table seat? What are the interconnected boxes? And where do you carry the solar panels? On the radar arch?
 
My original quarter berth seat was modified (see Modifications to a members 384) from a berth to a nav seat with a back. This really doesn't matter. I cut the entire top off what was the forward part of the berth. The opening goes from the forward edge of the berth back about 2 feet. This opens this entire area. Cut a new top and you can secure it as you like. As for the boxes, there is not enough flat space for the five batteries, so you have to stagger them. The 6v run down next to the engine compartment, and the 12v sits outboard of them.

The solar panels are on the radar arch mounted side by side with the long axis fore and aft.

If you need more details, I can take a couple of pics when I get back to the boat and have them available the end of July.
 
After seven years, my batery bank of six volt golf cart batteries (GCBs) is dyeing. Much to my dismay, I can no longer buy six volt GCBs from Sam's Club for $40/battery. They now sell eight volt GCBs for $70/battery. Problem is, I can think of a simple way to make 12 volt from eight volt batteries.

Does anyone know of a cheap source of golf cart batteries?

If I cannot find any, I will by Trojans ($120) and make an additional investment in a solar pannel to help keep them charged. This leads to my next question.

Does anyone have any experience with the German Co. SunWare?
 
Doesn't Costco sell them? Trojans are probably a better battery and longterm investment. Good Luck and protect your back!
 
I looked at BJs and Costoc also but didn't see any. It is possible that some stores have them and other don't. Thanks for the suggestion.
 
You might also consider a pair of Trojan L16 6 volt deep cycle batteries (430 AH).
They are tall and heavy but have a small footprint. I was able to fit them under the port setee in the space that was a drawer just forward of the galley bulkhead in my cm38 Teal. I cut out a section of the sole and built a box that sits directly on the lead ballast. This spot is close to the boat center so trim is not affected. I also installed Hydrocaps which prevent battery gassing in the cabin.
 
Jay

I just bought 4 G2 6V golf cart batteries at Sam's here in Port Charlotte, FL, (west coast). They said they go thru 2 palets a week and were surprised you could't get them. They also said they sell many more 6V than 8V batteries.

Cost was $66.87 ++ each.

You may try a special order or another store.

Hope this helps.

Bill Buebel, cm38 SHADOW
 
Bill: Thanks! That's just what I was hoping to hear. I will return and quiz them about the availability in this area.

Jay
 
I just bought 6 new batteries at Sam's Club for $66/battery. Again, thanks for the tip Bill. I had look at two stores and on the Sams web site to no avail. However, due to your post I tried again. This time when I walked in there were 16 available. Must have been magic. However, this time there were no 8 volts.

Jay
 
These batteries are rated at 105 reserve minutes. I believe this test assumes a 25 amp load. They look just like my old batteries which were rated at 215 amp hours, which is a little less than the better brands. At this time, I do not need top of the line batteries even if they may deliever a low $ per amp hour. The engine is the only way I can charge them while at anchor and I avoid doing that. Currently, I can't afford a proper charging system and I fear that I may get in a situation where I inadvertently murder them. I would rather kill $66 batteries than $200 batteries. These have proven to provide us with plenty of power for a month. We only charge them when we leave or enter an anchorage. In a couple of years I will add a refridgerator and solar panels. And when they die, I will replace them with a better value.

Jay
 
Jay

Glad you found the batteries.

May I suggest you get Hydrocaps. They replace the caps on the batteries and convert the gas discharge back to water so that you don't have to water them so often.

They require 3in of head room and cost $8.00 each. The manufacturer says that they custom manufacturer them to your requirements.

Bill Buebel
 
Jay
Could you post the Sam's sku or the brand and part/model number for the batteries you just bought please? I checked my local (Tampa) store and their web site but could not find them. The store manager here says he can order them for me if I can give him an sku or brand name with model/part number.
Thank you
Rick
 
Jay, Bill
The "Sam's Specials" are an Exide brand manufactured by Johnson Controls which is a based in Milwaukee. Johnson makes batteries for Exide, Motocraft (Ford) and others. This model, the CG2 is rated at 6 volt / 110 min at 75 amps. The web site also says they have a 20 hr rating of 220 ah. This compares to the T105's 115 min at 75 amps with a 20 hr rating of 225 ah. For $66 bucks it seems like a good deal compared to the T105's at $100. Thanks for the heads up. I'm headed to Sam's tomorrow. I may have enough $$ left over to buy some new cables.
Rick
 
I know at least two cruisers that routinely do the Bahamas in the winter and they swear these batteries are the best value. I haven't tried anything else so I don't endorse either their opinion or the batteries. I just know they're the cheapest that I can find. One problem that I can tell you about is that the cases appear to be thin and when I pulled out the old ones they were a little swollen in the middle. Similar to middle age spread. Nigel Calder has written that this will cause premature failure.

Jay
 
I can get T-105 Plus's for $90 each(up from $80 a year ago). They are the same as regular T-105's, but have three hinged caps instead of one long cap. This allows the straps to be run between caps so the straps do not need the be undone to service the batteries. Four of them fits well in the battery box. Although they are more expensive, Trojans are high quality and probably last longer.
 
Battery quality generally relates to weight. The heavier the battery, the better the internal plates and the longer it will last. This refers to lead acid batteries.
Jim
 
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