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Headliner Sag

J

jdgreen

Jay Green
The headliner above the galley and nav station of my 1984 384 is beginning to sag. It seems to be composed of fiberboard covered with thin foam with an oil cloth cover. I have thought of injecting an adhesive and proping it up to stick to the cabin top. The other alternative that came to mind is to take it down, replace the fiberboard and stick it back up. Has anyone tackled this, suggestions??
 
It is fairly easy if you find the right materials. It is easier if you stretch the material when it is warm or mildly hot. Use Pliobond or similiar contact adhesive. Use the old board as a form. Good Luck
Jim
 
We did all new headliner in our 1979 382, Sail #81. We put up insulation, then all new marine plywood w/new liner material. We used the old board as pattern to outline new pieces. It looks great and makes all the difference in world in FLA temps. I would not reuse old board, as it smells & looks old, when you get it down.
 
Xanadu -

What kind of insulation did you use? Some kind of barrier coat for the radiant heat? Did you use the same width marine ply? Do you recall what that was? Did you salvage the old vinyl or go with new?

I've been considering this job, more for the insulation than the ubiquitous sag around the galley. Just trying to get an idea of how much effort it would entail and any tips.

Rob
 
the insulation sounds like a particularly good idea.My old board also had some sort of foam edging which has completely deteriorated and falls down in black rain whenever I have to fiddle with the overhead. And the inserts don't fit so well along the edge of the cabin when the foam is gone.
Seems to me if one were doing this it might be better to do two things: first, cut the big pieces into smaller pieces, so access under the cabin top would be easier; and second, use formica rather than plywood and vinyl. Nicest, I suppose, would be to put strips of wood up, like old boats had and paint them white, and eliminate the liner, altogether. I would like to do this job, but it seems immense. Any additional advice would be much welcomed.
 
I used the aluminum foil insulation you find in hardware or lumber stores. It is about 1/4 inch thick and it works pretty well to reflect solar from the outside and keep heat generated in the winter months on the inside. I also use it as a cover in the refrig. Jim
 
This is one of the easiest & least expensive of boat projects in the last 1 1/2 years of remodeling work on 1979 382, which makes a big visual difference.

We used closed cell insulation from Home Depot for insulation next to cabin top (really can feel the difference with AC). Fitted 3/4 inch insulation pieces next to existing wood supports for liner ceiling trim.

Used contact cement (spray easiest) to glue new liner material (West Marine beige liner material) to 1/4 inch marine plywood. The only piece which had to be cut to get out of hatchway, was entry way by gallery, two pieces now. When liner was down, we cut opening for new bowmar hatch for gallery (12 X12), which gets air down into pervious HOT gallery area.

We then used the same beige liner material to replace hull liner in quarterberth. Used wood paneling in v-berth (i.e. 384). Again a easy project. The liner & ceiling replacments also made a difference in "boat smell", as all new now.

Would suggest taking pieces home to use table saw for cutting new plywood & used dining room table to get no-winkles in new liner, while gluing material. Put back up with existing wood trim pieces for ceiling.

We have learned more about which "boat pieces" were first, after hull, replacing the liner, ports, hatches, upper wood paneling by portlights, etc. Each piece of plywood & liner has the boat make 382 & with hull number. Amazing interior construction, by hand, piece by piece.
 
P.S. forgot to mention that the added insulation makes a "new" boat noise when boat beating into waves going to Ft. Jefferson (Dry Torgutos) from Boca Grande, as does the new plywood. So just expect, when when trying to sleep off-watch.
 
Xanadu,

Thanks for the additional details. One more question.

We were scoping out this project this weekend and wondered how you fit the pieces around the mast. Our mast has a big chunk of teak that goes all the way around it. It looks like the liner under the teak also encircles the mast completely. It seems like they did the ceiling liner first, then stepped the mast into it. We're scratching our heads wondering how to work around that...

Thanks for any advice.

Rob and Jo
 
The teak "rib" around the mast can be loosen down to take out the old liner and then fit back in the new liner. All the teak "ribs" holding the liner up can be removed throughout the cabin.

We just wiggled it down maybe 4 inches to remove old liner. We also had to cut the old liner in two pieces at that location, for removal, and then wiggled the teak "rib" back in place to hide a new seam. Looks brand-new.
 
Thanks yet again for your guidance. I assume you used the same "cut in half" technique around the hatches? Or did you have to do any disassembling with the hatches? It's hard to see how the liner and wood trim attach there.
 
we were replacing hatches, so they were already out. New Lewmars fit prefectly. I would unscrew the trim and see what gives. We did have to break the liner piece at the entryway by galley & nav station. It is too big to go back out the hatch, so you know what went in first. We replaced it, with two pieces with new seam area.
 
Has anyone that replaced hatches kept the old hatches( I am talking about the bowmar hatches on the 382 ), if the frame is in good shape I would like to inquire about purchasing them.

Jose Santin
SV Siboney
Hou. TX
 
We are in the final stage of our headliner/insulation project. Above the galley and in the mid cabin, we replaced the old boards that had sagged over time. We couldn't find suitable marine ply in Houston (there's a run on the stuff right now), so we went with some sheets of 1/8 inch plastic used for making signs. It's a little more flexible than we'd have liked, but seems to stay in place (so far). We were able to salvage the vinyl throughout.

In the fore cabin areas where it's more difficult to get the headliner down, we simply pulled down one edge and slid the foam insulation into place.

The V-berth area is our final frontier. Last weekned we installed a manual windlass while we had the headliner down up there. This weekend we'll add the insulation and put it all back together again. We're using half-inch foam with a sheet of foil radiant barrier on top for our insulation.

One peculiar thing we noticed. The original boards are all marked with the hull number. In the main cabin they all said 176. But when we pulled down the v-berth boards, they were marked 175.

Any ideas about which boat we have? Where else should we check?
 
I think if you look on the Stern of your boat you will see the hull number. It is the last numbers in the series that also give the builder, model, and a code that indicates the model and the month and year. In the archive should be a discussion of the date code.
 
I would be interested in hearing how you set up your manual windlass. I am considering a "remodel" of our windlass/achor set up and am loking for ideas.

Haaappy sailing,
DOC
 
Having lived aboard Papeche,'78 M382 #046, for 8 yrs , I'd like to add my 2cents to the great value of adding insulation to the cabin top.
Before I left for my Med cruise, I put the mylar coated bubble wrap insulation that Home Depot sells. I think it has a R12 rating -heat out summer, heat in winter. I put it up with spray on 3M glue. I covered every bit of under deck I could possibly get to, even back up in the closets, under the 1/4 berth etc.

What a difference! On deck, it could be over 95+ degrees and below in the low 80's. In the winter the opposite effect. Add a couple of Hella fans and it's quite pleasant.

For the money, around $30 for 2 rolls, I can't recommend it enough.
 
Hi Doc,

We added a Lofrans Royal manual windlass, which was on sale on SailNet. Haven't used it yet, so I can't recommend it. In fact, in one place I read that it is only recommended for boats up to 35 feet. Another resource said it was fine up to 40 feet. It seems sturdy, so we're hopeful it will work.

We installed it on a block of 1 1/4" teak centered directly behind the deck chain locker. It has 3/8" bolts through the base, the block and the deck with back plates to be installed under the headliner (as soon as I can drill holes through come galvanized steel we bought for that purpose).

We haven't built any access to the lower locker yet. We expect to have our primary rode in the top locker and only access to lower locker when we need a second rode.

We're thinking of building an access hole (with a cap) from the bottom of the deck locker down into the lower locker. We would then manually feed the rode in or pull it out when it's needed.

I know this isn't the same as the fancy glassed in PVC pipework people with electric windlasses have installed, but it may suffice ... and there's no wiring to mess with!

One question we foresee is drainage from the lower locker. Ours doesn't seem to have any drainage into the bilge. Has anyone else dealt with that problem? We imagine a wet anchor rode needs to drain somewhere.

It's odd that Morgan didn't provide access and drainage when they built the boat!
 
Rob & Jo,
Our 382 hull #26 has a drain from the lower anchor locker to the sump just outside head and in front of the mast. Ours was plugged, but we were able to flush the gunk out when we did a Clorox washdown to kill mildew build up in the locker. We had to remove some lead ingots that were apparently added for ballast, but the drain was at the bottom of the locker. Keep looking... maybe years of anchor rode sediment have covered it over.
Larry
"Sail-La-Vie"
 
RobnJo:
If your windlass is a horizontal shaft model and I follow what you describe correctly, then your chain comes in over the gypsy, down and under and back forward to the locker. This is the way my 382 is now rigged and it is cumbersom. I do not have as thick a wood block as you and it is difficult to feed the chain forward to the locker. The chain also jams between deck and gypse cheeks.

I'm considering splitting the space now taken by the upper and lower chain lockers by placing a vertical bulkhead on the center line. This would create two deep lockers. As Larry describes, these lockers would drain into the bilge. If I remove the lead that others have found in the bow, I should be able to carry all chain on two bow anchors. But this would require a major rebuild of the bow area. And I'm not sure how to rig the windlass. Any thoughts?

Haaappy Sailing,
DOC
 
Doc - Your description of our set-up is accurate. Still haven't tried it out in the field, so to speak. We did a bit of testing before mounting and discovered the chain-jam problem. Hence the wood block. I'm not sure I can fully visualize the rebuild you're proposing. Are you thinking of putting a couple of pipes or capped access holes into the split lower locker? I imagine the new bulkhead would have to be inserted in pieces in order to fit in through the lower access door. You might consider a partial (3/4) bulkhead as an alternative. It would still keep things separate, but perhaps allow access from one to the other. That could be desirable should you ever want to connect the rodes into one long one, for example.

Larry/Doc - We have the lead ingots as well. Any tips on their removal? I began the task with a hammer,chissel and safety goggles. It appears it will take a week or two with those tools.

Fair winds,
Rob n Jo
 
A question for anyone who has done the ceiling replacement project...Is the teak trim around the deck hatches held in place by the screws only or are they "glued and screwed"? I'm reffering to the trim inside the boat around the deck hatch over the main salon table and the deck hatch in the v-bunk. ( I removed the screws and gently tapped the trim from above. It wouldn't move and I am afraid to use too much force and risk splitting the trim)
Thanks for any feedback.
Rick
 
Mine trim was set in with some sort of non-adhesive sealant, and screwed. I was able very carefully and slowly to pry the trim off, after I took out the screws. Mine is hull 163, if I remember correctly. This doesn't guarantee that someone at the plant didn't use something else on your boat.
 
I removed the forward hatch trim on my 1984 38-4 and had the same experience as Terry. There was caulking which I believe was silicone, but it wasn't used as glue.
Ken
 
Terry & Ken
Thank you for the response. You are both correct, the trim came out easily after I removed the soft sealant along with the screws. I took down the ceiling in the v-berth today and have some questions for anyone who has done the project of ceiling replacement. I've read the posts that display when I do a search on the keyword "ceiling" and found the information very helpful. When I removed my ceiling (v-berth area only so far) this morning I found it is composed of 1/8" fiber board. Very much like the "peg board" in my dad's old shop where he hung is tools (but without the holes). I may be using the wrong term here. I've heard it refered to as particle board also. There is a 1/4" thick layer of foam glued to the particle board and the vinyl material. This assembly is screwed to wood strips that were epoxied to the underside of the fiberglass deck. The wood strips are about 3/4" thick. This creates an air gap between the underside of the deck and the fiber board. There is a lot of mildew especially where the edge of the fiber board touches the hull (topsides) just above the teak shelves on the port and starboard sides. The concentration of mildew in this area could be because it's the low spot and it's where condensation would run. I plan to replace the vinyl and foam. I may replace the fiber board too. I am going to soak it with a strong bleach solution and let it dry in the sun. If this seems to have killed the mildew, I'll paint the board and use it. If this doesn't seem to work I'll bite the bullet and cut new pieces. I am unsure what do do about controlling the condensation that occurs in the air gap between the ceiling and the underside of the deck. Some people have posted information that they used insulation of various types - closed cell foam, aluminum foil, mylar coated bubble wrap. Several of these posts are from around 2002. If those guys are still checking this board, I would appreciate your thoughts on how the insulation has performed after 4 years use. Did the elimination of the air gap help or hurt with condensation issues? I am a little concerned about filling the air gap with an insulating material. I understand the benefits of insulation in terms of comfort but I could create a greater problem with condensation (maybe). Would putting a few small vents in the ceiling help enhance air circulation in the air gap and reduce condensation? I would appreciate any comments from the board. Hull 064 (1984)
Regards
Rick
 
Rick,
For what it's worth--I had the ceiling down for the purpose of a windlass installation so I took the opportunity to put up the mylar coated bubble wrap. I measured each area between the wood strips and then cut and glued two sheets of bubble wrap together (I think the brand was called Reflex or something like that). I had some mildew stains on the "peg board without holes" but it wasn't bad so I was able to just wipe it clean (talking about the side that faces up toward the underside of the deck). I used 3M heavy duty spray adhesive. I did not extend it all the way to the hull just to allow freer movement through the bulwarks channel for any future wire or hose runs. It was a very easy job but I can't say how effective it is. It's only been about six or seven months and we don't live aboard right now so the opportunity to create condensation isn't there.
Ken
 
Rick,

I have done basicly what Ken did and it helped with condensate a great deal. I Use foam backed double sided tape to put up the insulation. I also pushed added insluation in the bulwark area.

I am a liveaboard and the V-berth now has very little condensation as a result of the bubble wrap insulation. And that includes ocassional bouts of "heavy breathing."

The hatch and anchor locker bulkhead still is a problem from time to time.

Vic C.

Vic
 
Vic, Ken
Thanks for the feedback. I saw a material called Reflectix in "This Old Boat". It is described as a mylar/bubble wrap. Is this what you used? Vic, I was in your neck of the woods a couple of weeks ago on business. I will be back in the G'ville area in early Feb. I may look you up if I can get some free time.
Rick
 
Rick,

The previous owners of my 384 replaced all of the head liner. They installed foil backed styrofoam insulation, much like what is used to insiulate the exterior walls in your home. They then installed a lamanint board, much like what you see in showers, as a head liner; the material is about 1/4 inch thick. Looks great, cleans well and the insulation is a great improvement.

Tom
 
I am having some difficulty finding vinyl for the headliner. The local retail outlets and (so far) the retail outlets I've found on the internet sell a textured vinyl, not the smooth vinyl like the original material. Does anyone have a recommendation for a source?
 
Rick, have you tried fabric stores? The type that women by stuff to make dresses or curtains. I know of one chain fabric store that my wife goes to called Jo Ann's.
 
Rick
Try Defender Industries in CT at 1-800-628-8225. They carry all that kind of stuff. I brought some from them years ago.

Jim
 
Jim,Jim,Jay, Larry
Thanks for the recommendations. Jo Anns has the best price for "marine grade" vinyl. Now to figure out what to use to glue vinyl to foam. Foam is more air than substance so this could be interesting.
 
Rick: I am not sure where the foam comes in. My vinyl is folded over the edges of and glued onto the back of press board of some sort. there is foam on the face of the press board, but the foam is not glued to the vinyl. It is just a spacer, if you will. the point, as I understand it, is to pull the vinyl tight around the press board and staple and glue it on back to hold it firmly in place. Others, I think, have eliminated the whole vinyl thing and replaced it all with formica, although, it seems to me that would rattle something terrible.
 
Terry, Jim
Thank you for the advice in your 1/31 posts. I was concerned about putting an adhesive on the vinyl to foam layer because of the risk of the adhesive bleeding through the vinyl with very ugly results. So the trick is to stretch the vinyl taught and just glue (and staple) the vinyl to the back side (upper side)of the particle board. I assume starting at one corner and working away from that corner along both edges at the same time is the way to make sure it gets stretched tight with no wrinkles?
Thanks again
Rick
 
I would not start at the corners but in each side in the middle and work toward each opposite corner. Do it when warm or get the vinyl warm. It's tricky. Practice on a small piece first.
Jim
 
Jim is right. I spread my vinyl over the masonite in my basement where it was cool. It looked great. When it was installed on the boat and warmed up it sagged terribly. Had to redo.

Jim

PS: Jim, thanks for the breakers!
 
Rick,
You might be interested in a tool for the stretching. Artists who work on canvas stretcher strips stretch their canvas with a tool that looks like a pliar but has a gripping nose shaped like a hammerhead shark. It grips about 4 or 5 inches of material and pulls evenly as you apply pressure. It is available in most art supply stores, and it is not expensive. It works very well.
Larry
 
You must be careful not to bend your board underneath by over stretching. Warm vinyl is easy to work with!
Jim
 
Terry, Jim
I have replaced the board, foam and vinyl on some of the flat pieces - v-bunk, quarter birth and some of the smaller pieces near the head and hanging locker. I glued the foam to the board. Then did as you suggested - heated the vinyl (with a heating blanket) and stretched it with the tool you recommended and glued the vinyl to the back side (upper side) only. So far so good. Now a new question has popped up and I could use your advice again. The larger pieces of headliner in the main cabin are all curved (arched). It seems to me that if I follow the same practice with these pieces asn with the flat pieces I am guaranteed to have sag. Do you have to glue the vinyl to the foam, then the foam to the board on the arched pieces? If so, I assume you start in the middle and work toward the edges. Thanks in advance for your advice. I also have 2 pieces of headliner in the main cabin that won't come out of the boat! The large piece that has the cut out for the hatch over the table and the large piece that has the cut out for the companion way sliding hatch. I will have cut these fore and aft and run a new piece of teak for and aft to cover the seam.
 
Rick: You have exhausted my suggestions. You are right about the curved pieces and right now I can't picture how they work. i know I have taken them down, but I can't remember how the vinyl stretches over the curved part. sorry. Can't you tell this from the old panels?
 
I thought the curved pieces were flat until they are placed in the ceiling. Then they are shaped/curved by the teak wood strips. Remember, tight is good. I would stretch and glue the long sides first and then the ends which will give you some curve. It is tricky!
Jim
 
Jim
My thoughts exactly-stretch long sides first. After much thought and some experimentation I see no other way to do it. Any other approach will lead to sag. The v-bunk is done and looks good. I'll be doing the main cabin this week. Incidently, there are two pieces that had to be cut to get them out of the boat. The piece above the galley and chart table has been reported on other posts. I couldn't get the piece that has the cut-out for the deck hatch over the fold-down table out. It wouldn't fit through the companionway either. After removing the ceiling, I now understand why there was so much mildew up there. On our 384 (1984), the builder put foam strips on the outboard edges of the boards on the upper side of the board. A facing piece of foam was glued to the underside of the deck. The foam acts as a flexible spacer to keep the board from flexing and hitting the underside of the deck. The foam also acts as a moisture trap for any condensate that accumulates in the air gap between the underside of the deck and the particle board. I am adding Reflectex between the deck and board. The board I used is called Eucaboard. Both Reflectex and Eucaboard are available at Lowe's or Home Depot.
 
Now is the time to think about lighting. I installed 12 v. down lights and wired them to switches aft of the mast.
Jim
 
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