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Caution on removable inner forestay

B

bert

Bert Okma
<div>I had read some previous postings about the removable inner
forestay on the 38x boats so I took a close look at mine and
then had my negative impression confirmed by the experts down at
the yard.My 1982 383 has the stay tacked to a stainless fitting about two
feet aft of the headstay. It is bolted through the deck with a
backing plate but has no attachment to the hull or stem.
Deciding this was not a sufficient attachment for the conditions
on San Francisco Bay and the Gulf of the Farallones I decided to
have it taken care of.When the yard pulled off the deck fitting it was obvious that at
some point in the boat's history the stay had in fact pulled out
and the deck repaired to remount it, again with no proper
attachment, and there were signs of cracking around the previous
repair. A little freightening considering I use this stay to
carry a smaller working headsail when the going gets heavy.The proper fix will be fairly simple, running a rod from the
backing plate through the stem.Anyone using this configuration and sailing in areas where the
wind blows like it does here should take a close look at the
attachment.
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<div>Jimmie,I shiver at the thought of losing that forestay up through your deck during heavy winds. That's one repair I would really want to avoid myself.I have a 382, and I don't have an inner forestay, but I AM going to be moving to San Francisco pretty soon. What sail configuration do you end up using the most often? I come from Texas, where in the Spring, I put out my 110% working jib(the smallest I have right now), and my main only sometimes (sometimes reefed). In the summer, I raise the 150% for the lighter winds. I know I'll end up storing my 150% until my girlfriend and I head for blue water, but I'm wondering if I need to aquire a smaller, heavy weather Jib. I'm already feeling the urgency for a dodger, given the cold water off SF.</div>
 
Jimmie,
The inner forestays I've seen have been fastened through the deck to a tang or plate that is secured to the forepeak/anchor locker bulkhead. Usually the bulkhead is reinforced where it joins the hull and deck. Assuming your inner forestay attaches to the deck in the area of this bulkhead, did your yard reject this option for attaching the stay? I've always thought this was the best method for attaching an innder forestay -- but maybe not?
 
<div>If you like the wind you are going to love it here! From early May through September and October the sea breeze is the most reliable wind machine in the world but the Bay offers a variety of conditions on most days. Typical
is for it to be very light through the early morning until about 1000 or 1100. The temperature differential between the central valley and the offshore high kicks in and it is time to hold on to your socks. The Central bay sees 25 to 30 knots day after day, usually easing off in late afternoon or early evening. But if you want a more leisurely day then there are areas, principally south of the Bay Bridge and a few other sheltered pockets, that offer lighter (and warmer) conditions. Off shore the predominant feature in the summer is fog. It runs in about seven to ten day cycles and when it is foggy it is usually light.In the summer my standard plan generally starts with my 135 rolled all the way out with a full main up. This will do fine till I start seeing apparent wind at around 15 to 18 knots, close hauled, at which point I take a first reef and roll the head sail in about 25%. At somewhere around 20 to 22 knots apparent the helm and heal dictate coming down again so I set the 90% staysail and flatten everything out pretty hard. On most days this will suffice for the balance of the day. I can stay with the 135 and just roll it further in but the sail becomes very inefficient if I take it in more than about 30%. The winters offer much lighter conditions (except for the occasional southwesterly that accompanies a low passing just north of us). Your 150 will be very handy in the winter.As far as a dodger, you can get by without one on the bay unless you are beating to weather in the central bay with the wind up and an opposing ebb tide where the chop gets about six feet and straight up and down. You will get wet in the cockpit going that way at that time. If you plan to do local costal cruising then a dodger is really necessary for coming back north.There is a very good book that has just been reprinted for the first time in a while called "Sailing The Bay" by Kimball Livingston, published by The White Bridge Group. It is just packed with good information about the bay
and the bay conditions and I have yet to find anything inaccurate in it.My opinion is that you need to have your boat rigged for dealing with heavier air when you come to the bay. That means not just smaller and heavier sails but also more comprehensive sail controls. Perhaps larger sheet winches, solid and easily implemented reefing, two speed halyard winches, a vang and a good cunningham arrangement, purchase on the traveler, etc. The old line that if you can sail on San Francisco Bay you can sail anywhere is, in my opinion, a local arrogance that just is not true. But, if you can sail in the Gulf of the Farallones the year round you can experience conditions that are as challenging as you will find almost anywhere.If I can answer any questions do not hesitate to drop me a line at this e-mail address.
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<div>The fitting for our inner forestay is mounted thru the deck just forward of the hatch for the anchor locker so there is no way to use the bulkhead. (By the way, that after bulkhead was not glassed to the deck or the hull and this had to be corrected also.)We decided the best solution was to weld a rod to the backing plate that extends the few inches through the stem and secures the whole fitting very securely.
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<div>Summer conditions in SF Bay warrant a 90 or 100 working jib.
When the winds builds, a reef is required to keep the boat upright and sailing. Reefing a 150 or 135 is really inefficient and hard on the sail.Rigging an inner stay is impractical unless it is removable.
This should only be used for a storm sail and it needs to be fixed to the hull and not a bulkhead that may rip apart. Think about how your forestay is attached, the same should apply to a inner stay. Another thing to consider should be the attachment to the mast and the addition of running backs. I believe the Morgan performs just fine as a sloop.
Why complicate things; remember the sailor's principal
K.I.S.S. </div>
 
Have you ever looked at all of your shrouds? They are all atttached to plywood bulkheads.
I questioned the repair shop that installed my tang about the structural soundness of the tang on the forward bulkhead. If there had been any doubt they would have recomemded re-enforcing. But if you must be sure, you could always add some fiberglass cloth between the hull/deck/bulkhead intersections inside the chain locker.
 
<div>I agree with you on the attachment issue, hence my previous caution. However I disagree that such a stay should only be used for a storm sail. We use it to fly a working jib, allowing the 135 to stay rolled on the headstay. As you say, reefing (or partially furling on a roller) is very inefficient and hard on the sail.The biggest advantage to the second stay is when running down wind, especially in big swell. We pole out the 135 and run the staysail wing and wing, leaving the main down. The boat balances like a jewell in this config and you can really get smoking in fifteen knots of wind.The problem of course is what to do with the stay when not in use. We solved this by fabricating a fitting on the cabin side just aft of the forward lower. The stay comes down from the mast and is curved around a smooth arc and the tensioning lever is used to tighten the stay in place. This way it is very simple to rig or remove and really adds to your flexibility in the fore triangle.The attachment point on the mast is only about a foot below the headstay so there is no need for runners, particular with the telephone pole of a mast that the 383s have.I agree that the Morgan performs well as a sloop and the inner forestay that is tacked only 22 inches behind the headstay does not make the boat a cutter by any means. You would never run a yankee and a staysail together in the classic cutter config. In other words, it is still a sloop, it just has an option in the rigging of the fore triangle.
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I don't think that all of the 382s,3s,4s, where constructed exactly alike. The bulkhead that makes the anchor locker on Njord (1985 hull#20) is glassed to the hull. Furthermore, every bulkhead where I can inspect the contact point to the hull has been tabbed to the hull below the waterline with roving. One exception to this is the bulkhead that supports the cap shroud. This bulkhead is tabbed both above and below the waterline.
 
Regarding the "best" deck location to attach an inner forestay for those considering adding one, it should be said that Ted Brewer recommends attaching it to a reinforced anchor locker bulkhead. He will supply a copy of his design for a few dollars. When I talked with him about installing an inner forestay, he was unequivocal about where he recommended placing the attachment point.
For what it's worth, I probably would not change out a well-installed deck fitting which was not attached to that bulkhead (like Jimmie's), but I would feel more or less compelled to follow Brewer's recommendation on a new installation. Besides the obvious strength benefits, offshore sailors who have an inner stay attached at the bulkhead should be more secure with the extra deck room while hanking on a storm stays'l. There are also some benefits from keeping the stays'l CE further aft, etc.
 
As those who have read the newsletters will recall, I sail my M-383 as a cutter. I have a removeable inner forestay attached to the aft chain locker bulkhead, and I fly a yankee on the roller furler and a staysail on hanks. It's a great combination, gives me lots of flexibility and is very easy to handle. (Think about sheeting in a 110% Yankee in 20 knots of wind vs. a 135%.) The downsides are mediocre performace in light air compared to a 135% and dealing with the staysail lashed down on deck when not in use. And tacking two sails. But I like it.
 
<div>It is probably not an oversite but thought I would make the note anyway. When first looking at the forward bulkhead on my M-384 hull # 9 I didn't think it was glassed/tabbed to the hull but upon closer inspection I found that it was but that a covering was over it on the hull and a thin plywood cover hiding it on the bulkhead itself making it appear like a simple plywood panel without tabbing. For those who are conserned it may be worth a 2nd look.By the way I intend to add an inner forstay based on the Ted Brewer design which utilizes a reinforced forward/anchor locker bulkhead attachment point.
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While we're on the subject. I took a look at mine this past weekend and not only is it bonded to the hull, but it is completely covered with at least one layer of 20 ounce roving. According to Pete Brown, all of the bulkheads in the M38x series that are visible from the cabin are not directly attached to the hull but rather, are attached to a subbulkhead which is inturn bonded to the hull. The big bulkhead at the cap shroud station is not bonded to the hull but it is fastned to a sub-bulkhead. It is really according to Pete, a partition. The sub-bulkhead does not continue to the coach roof and I wonder if this is one of the reason why Morgan did not bond the bulkheads (partitions) to the coach roof.
 
As I have said in the past, your boat will leak into the v-berth if this area is not sealed, either with glass or sealant. Once water enters the upper locker, if on a heal, it will enter the berth. My hull is #109 and it was not glassed.
 
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