Repowering: Beta versus Yanmar

Greetings Morganeers!

I need some sage advice ...

Our "beloved" Perkins lost oil pressure and blew oil all over the compartment last weekend. We still had a lovely weekend, although it finished with a $1,000 tow back to our slip. Thank God for Boat US Towing Insurance!

I think it has a blown head gasket, but the bottom line is I'm done with the engine. I've pampered it, had the head gasket replaced, injectors worked on, etc. but it continues to be an oil spraying, loud, cantankerous thing. And 35+ years old is doing pretty well for an engine.

The admiral & I did some deep thinking and we are going to replace the engine. We plan to do some more long distance voyaging and we really want/need the reliability. We will probably do this for at least 10 more years and if you prorate it out over 10 years, it's not so bad ($/year). At least that's how I'm rationalizing it.

So ... I seem to be narrowing it down to either a Beta (38 or 43) or one of the high tech new Yanmars.

Can anyone give me feedback on how they like their Betas, how they perform, and if they have the 38 or 43? I know of at least 3 boats on this forum that have repowered with Betas. They are relatively low tech, marinized Kubota tractor engines. Parts are apparently easier to find and basic diesel mechanics can work on them if we are in a remote area.

Can anyone give me feedback on how they like any Yanmars they have repowered with?
I'm looking at the 4JH45 which is one of the electronically controlled Common Rail high tech engines. People on the forums like to rag on the newer Yanmars because of the new high tech features. Ironically those same people probably drive a Toyota Prius instead of their 'simpler' 1968 AMC Rambler.

To me they seem like they will be quiet, fuel efficient and reliable. It does have a 5 year warranty so if it's a lemon, Yanmar will need to fix it.

I was surprised that (so far) it looks like the price of the Beta and Yanmar (with transmissions) are actually not that far apart. I was expecting the Beta to be significantly cheaper.

Thanks in advance for any advice/experience you can give me!
-Mark

Mark to me the common rail and electronicControl would be ok if you buy another Mother board as a spare. ! The Old beta Has not changed much and i dont know anyone with a bad word about them . just my 2 cents.

We have installed the Beta 38 in place of the original Yanmar 3QM30.

Only have about 25 hrs on it so far, but it is very nice, no surprises. Some comments so far, in no particular order:
1. The biggest change is the lack of vibration. The old engine used to rattle the boat. The noise from the stove was so bad we had to take the burner tops off to bear it when motoring.
2. The noise level is quite a bit less than the old engine. I don't have any sound insulation at all except on the backside of the companionway ladder. I think I will add insulation, but the noise isn't bad, and actually a fairly pleasant, sewing machine like sound. Normal conversation is no problem when motoring, even down below.
3. I am intending to do some speed vs rpm measurements on our trip this week, but informally we do about 5 knots at 1800 -2000 rpm and 6 knots at 2200 -2400 rpm, hard to tell how much current was helping or hurting without going in both directions. It is still breaking in and I don't like to push it hard yet but it appears that 7 knots is available but at pretty high rpm. We have the original 16RH12, 3 blade prop.
4. The reputation for Beta support and availability of parts and spares was a big attraction to me, seems to be true. In addition to the boatyard who installs it there is a national support organization that you can contact. They answered my couple of emails within a few hours or a day. You can buy spares directly from them and they even check your engine number against your list to make sure you ordered the correct ones.
5. I have found that motor sailing is very nice with the Beta. If the wind is light and fluky we have several times motorsailed with the engine just quietly ticking over and made it into a pleasant passage rather than a frustrating one.
6. Cannot tell yet about fuel economy but we haven't used much. Filled the tank at the beginning of the season and it is still at 3/4.
7. We did have one incident with the Racor filter getting air in it and shutting us down, but I don't think that was the Beta's fault. The installation manual requires the return fuel line to have a dip installed to below the bottom of the fuel tank, which you can do in the bilge. Our mechanic hadn't done that so I asked Beta if that could lead to air problems but the Beta tech engineer in England said that wouldn't have led to air in the Racor. We have since had the loop installed but he didn't think it was all that important in our case.

So far very satisfied,
Steve

Thanks Steve ... that was exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.
There was a second hand reference on here about somebody who tried a Beta 38 and it was overheating so they upgraded to a Beta 43. It sounds like the 38 is "right sized" to you?
Also, can you give me an idea of cost? Materials & installation?
Thanks Much!
-Mark

Mark, my sage advice would be to do your homework. Engine repowering is very expensive and usually has $urprises.
Since the EPA mandated lower emissions, the diesel engine's vaunted reliability has become somewhat tarnished. Electronic engine controls have caused issues. As Lee points out, when it stops working the engine quits and you need a trained mechanic to troubleshoot. So a wide service network (like Yanmar?) might be valuable if you're cruising. A long warranty is obviously a plus if it covers the electronics and injection systems.

I am not sure what EPA mandates currently apply to marine engines. Or whether new, old stock engines are available (pre-controls). In the over the road truck business, rebuilt old school engines are being put in new chassis to avoid high maintenance costs. I would suggest avoiding any engine with an EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) system as they have proven to be very troublesome in autos and OTR trucks. I do not know if such systems are even on marine engines, admittedly. That's all I have for you buddy. Good luck.
.

Mark,
My opinion is to avoid the high pressure common rail (HPCR) engine at this point in time, not so much for the electronics as that it operates at very high pressure- (the HP in HPCR) and has a very very tight spec for fuel cleanliness. A sailboat using a few gallons a month and storing fuel for months and years, buying fuel at irregular intervals from unknown sources, moist environment, etc. does not seem to be well suited to providing the clean fuel needed.

Nigel Calder wrote a very good article about the issue.
https://www.yachtingmonthly.com/gear/reasons-to-be-paranoid-about-diesel-34807

The Beta diesels are not HPCR and appear to be more forgiving of fuel quality problems. When I was reading up prior to deciding, the HPCR engines seemed to be for only above 50 horsepower and not an issue to worry about, but now Yanmar is selling them at 40 horsepower. Maybe you can still get an older Yanmar without it?

I don't think you would go wrong with either the Beta 38 or 43. They are different dimensional families and I only checked on the 38, so you would have to make sure that the 43 would fit. The Beta 38 seems to have very adequate performance and I always heard that too big is not good, you want to run a diesel high on its power curve. The overheating that you described doesn't occur on ours. Maybe he had the wrong gear ratio for the prop? I also don't know the price difference between the 38 and 43.

Regarding cost of the repowering:
We paid about $20 k for the engine, options and installation, but this is confused by a lot of other things included in the project but not really part of it, like hauling and transportation to the shop. The engine price itself was right at $13.4 k including a couple of options like one of the waterproof engine panel options, and 120 amp alternator. We sold the Yanmar for $3800 on eBay, since it was running well and had low hours. That took a lot of the sting out of the overall cost.

The installation estimate was generous for what was actually needed for the engine but things showed up that were not expected, so that used the hours in a different way. The old engine had 3 broken motor mounts and the movement had damaged the shaft log and created work, including removal of the rudder, rebuilding the damaged shaft log, and sending the prop and shaft to a machine shop for checking. There was other work that became apparent in the process like relocating the cooling water strainer into the engine compartment, and unrelated items like working on the bilge, rewiring bilge pumps and filling the old holding tank in the bilge. We replaced a few things like hot water heater hoses rather than go with the old ones, rebuilt the Racor filter, installed a new electric fuel pump, etc.

The Beta 38 engine fits without modifying much of anything. They bolted 1 inch thick G40 bars to the top of the engine beds to raise them 1". The shaft and exhaust fit without modification. The original thru hull for the cooling water was too small and we did replace and relocate that.

If you are a talented mechanical DIYer you could probably install the engine yourself and Beta seems to support the DIYer. I didn't have the time and talent but was able to do a lot of peripheral stuff like protective coverings, removals, cleaning and painting the engine compartment and cockpit locker, plumbing in new bilge pumps, etc.. I didn't really consider doing the engine itself given past history of my mechanical work on cars and lack of the equipment and tools to move the engines around, and with the boat over an hour's drive away.

Steve

Very interesting article, Steve. Well meaning Federal regulations really screwing up the real world? Again? But don't get me started on that. (former VW TDI owner). What doesn't make sense in this story is Mark's Perkins engine. Practical Sailor had an article years ago where real marine mechanics picked the Perkins as the most reliable sailboat auxiliary. Given Calder's article, the cost of repowering, I'd be tempted to rebuild the Perkins. My Perk was noisy, leaked a bit of oil, but ran well, and pushed the boat through anything. A Perkins expert rebuilt engine might be my choice. Anything mechanical can be fixed...by the right person.
Mark, more free advice - when the engine's out - noise proof the engine compartment.

Steve ... thanks for all the good info and the Nigel Calder article. I actually found that article last week because I was wondering what Nigel's take was on the newer common rail engines. If we got the Yanmar, it comes with both a primary & secondary filter and they would want us to replace our Racor with their filter. Presumably their filters are why they feel comfortable offering a 5 year warranty, which seems pretty darned good. Our Yanmar dealer told me Yanmar doesn't have any non-common rail ... only common rail.

Dave, I hear what you are saying & understand. You and most others on this forum are quite loyal to the Perkins for their reliability, simplicity, etc. We haven't had a good experience with our Perkins. I'm ready to euthanize it & give it a nice comfortable resting spot at the landfill. I think the thing must have been abused by a previous owner. I feel too much guilt when we go to these gorgeous places and leave behind any amount of oil.

I want clean, quiet and reliable and our poor Perkins has failed to deliver on all those categories.

We rented a land yacht and we are up enjoying fall colors in Alaska now. Amazing.

Does anyone on this forum have any experience with the new common rail Yanmars?

Cheers,
Mark

More feedback on the Beta 38
We were out for five days, not much wind due to a high pressure over New England. Florence was way to the south and we were in some sort of bubble. We did a lot of motoring, about 20 hrs.

I tried to get more definitive on the Beta 38. My intentions to measure an actual speed vs rpm relationship were not successful. There were too many factors at play such as the tidal currents ( Maine), wind and whether any sails were up. We were also towing a RIB dinghy,

I ended up without anything very scientific to report other than:

The Beta 38 seems very adequate but can be a bit noisy at higher rpm, but how soon we have forgotten the sound of the former Yanmar 3QM30, so we don't know anymore how it compares.
The stove does not rattle at all anymore.
Good hot water supply for showers if run for 1 hour.
I should install sound insulation in the engine compartment. Noise is only in the cockpit. Step forward on deck, say up to the mast, and cannot hear much from the engine. The Beta 43 might be a bit better since it could run at lower rpm and perhaps be a little quieter.
The engine still starts instantly on the first touch of the start button.
Temp gauge never exceeded 170 degF entire trip.
On the first day we were joining up with the others and were late so we motored at 6.5 knots and almost 3000 rpm. Pretty noisy and I didn't like it, but spouse thought it was reasonable. Then moving on with the other 3 boats the next day, our friends with a Pearson with Westerbeke/ Perkins 4-108 in their boat, (They have much anxiety over actually starting engine, let alone the prolific oil leaks) couldn't get over 4 knots and held us to about 1800 rpm to stay with them. Next day also stayed with them seeming to just plod along. Fourth day finally tired of that and we just let it drift up to 2000- 2200 rpm and 4.8 knots and got there much earlier. They said that they found their motor throttle was restricting rpm to 2000 but didn't know why. Their Perkins has been rebuilt last summer at $8k.

Another rule of the road: Don't put it in reverse if you think that you may have run over a lobster trap buoy.
Steve

Steve,
When I repowered( volvo 40ph) the engine manual said that the prop must be sized such that the motor will run at max rpm ( 2800 to 3000 ) with wide open throttle. I get a little over 7 knts of boat speed in flat water.
You might be under propped, a slight increase in pitch might help.

With the new common rail systems and the engine electronic controlled . We all have cars electronic controlled now a days. We have all had the mother boards go south in our washers and refrigerators. This was Ok when the boards were made in USA in California ! But CHINA we all know they dont hold up . Let alone 15- 20 years like we would like in out marine engines !
For me if you have a common rail and dont have a spare mother board you are asking for trouble. In the middle of your cruise it stops and You cant fix it and the marina mechanic has never seen such a beast you have the wrong equipment ! If it was more or less money than does not matter, your stuck ! Try telling your wife why, this has happened to Her !

We have a Vetus 42 HP. Smooth and quite. Kept the old Hurth transmission. Love it. Stands up well to Lake Superior conditions.