Auto Pilot

Hello all,

I am relatively new to this forum, so I apologize if I am covering old topics. I have read through past posts on auto pilot systems, and I would like to get any updated input or specific input for my new to me Morgan 382. I have posted a couple of photos of my steering system. I have an Orion quandrant and an Edson pedestal. The Edson pedestal has a chain drive with sprockets attached to cables. The wheel is very easy to turn, but the rudder post is very hard to turn with the emergency tiller. I have been discussing my project with a 40 year veteran of the navy and avid sailor. His opinion is that a wheel steering systems such as the Raymarine EV-100 would be the best option since the wheel is easy to turn. That system is not rated for vessels at 17,000 lbs. (empty). A previous post indicated that a Simrad HDL350 linear drive system with a rudder post bolt on mini tiller arm from Edson would be a good choice. That system makes a lot of sense to me as is rated for 20,000 lbs. and 700+ pounds of force. My senior advisor on the project is concerned that the force required for the emergency tiller is so large compared to the force required to move the wheel, that the direct linear drive may not be strong enough, or may wear out quickly. Any comments or advise would be greatly appreciated. FYI, there are no other instruments currently on the boat, and I will be installing all new.

Most Wheel pilots are not recommended for boats with as much displacement as our M-38X's. Cetrex (?) is an exception. That said, I have one (Simrad WP32)! It works fine when powering, and serving as the third crewmember dousing/reefing the main. Off the wind its ok if you balance the sails. Wind astern?
I drive, but any AP struggles keeping up with wind astern and waves on the quarter. If I were going to sea and wanted an auto pilot to steer under all conditions I'd buy an oversize below deck unit. No question. Maybe two of them!

Gil, I'd suspect the friction at the quadrant is due to the gear ratio of the steering wheel over the rudder movement. My boat acts the same in that I can't make the wheel spin when I try to physically move the rudder. Yet when I had the quadrant off the rudder would easily move. Maybe we both need to grease our cable sheaves?
Take everything I said with a grain of salt, I reall don't know much about AP's.
Dave

Dave,

Thanks for the quick response. I suspect that you are correct regarding the gearing ratio. I can spin the wheel with one finger, but it takes two hands and all of my stength to turn the rudder post with the emergency tiller. I will research the items you referenced.

I would also like to hear from anyone who has had good experience with a below deck linear drive system. Thanks for the help.

I have an antique original Autohelm 5000 electric motor driven ( B/4 Raytheon bought Autohelm ) using an Edson torque arm. Installed myself in 1992 I think. Still works OK. The control unit sometimes needs light tapping to wake up the compass. Had a Navico wheel pilot on the Catalina 38 which requires more power to the wheel than the Morgan. Worked fine until belt problems developed. Sheaves then failed. Official Wt. on the Cat 38 is 15,900# but the way I had it loaded was probably more like 18,500 -19,500#. Replaced the Navico with a RayMarine 4000 wheel pilot, it still works.
Choice would appear to be yours. Below unit is better but more costly as you know.
I question your Orion and Edson comments. Unless your previous owner replaced the Orion cables with Edson, as I did, ( Not a fun job ) You probably have one or the other. Morgan changed in 1979 from Orion to Edson I believe.
Also Gil pushing on the rudder on mine on the Morgan rotates all parts just fine today.

Dick

Gil,
My 384 has an Octopus linear drive, model OCTAF1212LAR12. It works well even with a 20 year old Navico 8000. Steers better "wing on wing" than I do, and is very strong on a reach. These used on a variety of below deck autopilot systems, and compatible with most systems with reversing 12 volt pumps.

Octopus' tech support leaves some to be desired since they do not like to answer questions on old systems, but ask you to send it in, or buy a new one. I would hope they better with support on new systems.

I rebuilt the cylinder with $2 in o-rings, and have no leaks. I did not replace the u-cups between the 2 sides of cylinder, since they were in good shape. They are inexpensive AR 6226-20 type, but not available as the o-rings.

I had an air leak on my annual Bahama trip, but it was cause by a worn o-ring on one of the bleed screws - easy and inexpensive to fix.

John

I have Edson Steering (1982-M383) on which some previous owner installed an AutoNav below decks hydraulic linear drive unit with other AutoNav navigation and system components. The most recent previous owner installed a Nexus instruments and autopilot control head, removing some, but not all of the AutoNav system, but using the Hydraulic Linear drive. (I am still removing wires that are unused as I find them). I replaced the reservoir on the linear drive as it had started leaking. All together it works very well. When the sails are balanced to the rudder it has no problems at all, but when the boat gets over-driven it will kick off, I believe because the direction requested by the control head cannot be gotten to by the wheel because the hydraulics fail to turn the boat. If I re-balance sails and rudder, it all goes golden again. I don't think they make this unit anymore, but I do have to be "on watch" if there are heavier winds. My boat is just okay balanced downwind, but I have always attributed that to my own in-experience of being in the midwest weekend sailing mostly upwind or on a reach. Pics:

Rolf, - there's certainly an isolation between proper sail trim and rudder pressure when using wheel steering. A tiller gives you immediate feed back in that you can feel the weather (or lee) helm. Eay to feel trim is out of whack when the tiller has a bend in it! I believe a M38X is "under ruddered" compared to a racing dinghy or sportboat. So sail trim becomes even more important for us M38X owners. I'm not sure it you, buddy!
I've experienced a lot of "Laser death rolls" going down wind in dinghies and I feel strong similarities between our boats. I think sail area reduction (reefed main) in strong winds is the key. In fact with very strong aft winds & waves my M383 (tall rig / "small" 382 rudder) can get hairy! My AP couldn't get close to sensing the wave to turn in anticipation of the next oscilation even with all the gain adjustments turned up. (I'm not sure any AP can). So thats when I steer...and I added a 2'nd reef in the main after almost getting close to blowing the rudder out a few times during one particularly stong great lake high pressure front blew through. I've found in those conditions headsail only gives speed and control. You can get away with that with our telephone polemast and mast head rig....or at least I have so far! Dave

Rolf,
Does your autopilot have a rudder position sensor attached? If not, that is the reason it if mis-behaving. The control head needs to know when the rudder has reached the end of it's travel. If not it continues trying to turn the helm and your motor will draw too much current.

Yes, you can see it in the 2nd picture above, if that is what you mean - an additional rod attached to the quadrant that sends information to the control head.

Thanks for all the great comments and advice. I may be moving forward with all new B&G electronics on the boat... Zeus 2 MFD, Triton wind, depth, speed package. The manufacturer's rep. suggest the Triton T2 linear drive system. Looks like a good set up, and appears to have the power. Any thoughts?

Am finally ready to install an autopilot in WIlliwaw (1980 M-382). Seeing that John fit an Octopus LAR-12 cylinder in an M-384 is the last piece in the puzzle I was unsure of (although I would dearly love to see a photo of how that was done!).

I'll digress - We sailed Williwaw from Mobile Bay non-stop to Panama City, FL the first time we left the dock after buying her. It was a long night on the Gulf and I vowed to get an autopilot - one that would hold up to offshore cruising.

I know a lot of Alaskan commercial fishermen who fish the worlds toughest seas. Most of those guys I asked about autopilots, swear by ComNav gear. Hence, I contacted ComNav and their tech support guy worked-up a rudder torque calculation for me and recommended their Commander P2 electronics and an Octopus LAR-12 pump and cylinder.

It made sense as the 12" throw provides full swing of the rudder while connected almost the full 10" out the Edson tiller arm. Seems that would require the least amount of pressure to move the rudder and save watts.

I'm all set to start installing, but now find 2 hurdles:
1) time to re-pack the rudder post and make sure the bushing is up to snuff (so, another haul out)
2) how does a guy stuff a 12" throw cylinder under there that needs almost 45" of clearance to fit??

I made a full-size mock-up of both the cylinder and Edson 10" arm and the choices are pretty limited to make 'em fit. Seeing a few posts back that John has the same cylinder in his 384 I found hope. I am nervous about using a shorter throw cylinder as it requires connecting to the Edson arm much closer to the rudder post which I fear puts a lot of load on the Hydraulics.

If anyone else has solved the hydraulic/arm puzzle in a way that seems strong enough to handle heavy seas I'd love to hear about that too - years ago Michael Freeman spoke with me about riding 60 knot winds and incredibly large following seas in their M-382 for two days ahead of a hurricane toward Belize and credited surviving to the autopilot.

Check out the WH Autopilots, made in Washington state. Very robust. Steve Dashew specifies these on all his boats.

Tom,
I have a friend that solved this problem by attaching angle pieces to the two upright wooden beams that act as rudder stops. He then made a platform to mount the ram and attached to platform to the angle pieces. If I remember right he used 1/4" aluminum to make the mount. I am not sure if he looks in on this board, but the Boat's name is Sunrise. His name is Bob.
I plan on doing the same thing on my boat.

Best of luck

Jose