Topping lift use

[DGA]

Probably like most here, I have the topping lift set so that after the main sail is raised and the luff is tight, this raises the boom slightly and the topping lift is just a little slack. I don't ever adjust it. Also, my spray hood is close to the bottom of the boom, so I can't have much droop from a raised sail. But it occurred to me that, in my efforts to get the single line reefing to work, one of the issues is, it's hard to get enough lift at the leech end to actually be able to lift the boom. So I am considering also running the topping lift back to the cockpit, and before reefing, use the topping lift line to lift the boom, then lower the main halyard to a set point that still has the luff reef block slightly above the boom and I should be able to get the leech all the way down easier.
Am I thinking correctly here, remember, this is in an effort to get this to work from the cockpit.

 

[Warren Holybee]

I don't have any issue with the topping lift coming back to the cockpit, as it is often too loose after reefing and needs some trim. But, I would think that you should be able to ease the halyard enough that you don't need to lift the boom via the reef line. Ease the main halyard _a_lot_. If taking in the first reef, ease it at least to the second. The topping lift should hold the boom off your sprayhood. Then you should be able to tension your reefing lines with the sail just sitting on the boom, and not needing to left or support anything. If everything is working well, you shouldn't even need a winch on the reefing lines. Then, reset the main halyard, and the leech will lift the boom back into position.

Single line reefing systems are notorious for not working well. Many boats will install blocks on the sail in place of the cringle rings, and many also install a block and tackle in the boom similar to our outhaul, but with both ends sliding, one for the tack and one for the clew.

An option, instead of single line reefing, you could do two line reefing. Just bring the tack line back to the cockpit instead of the topping lift.

 

[DGA]

I have made soft shackle block fittings on both reef points, on the first reef. Trying to get rid of the majority of friction where possible. Pic shows how I did that. But I found the luff block will pull down first and then jam the line before the leech block pulls down. So I am now going to mark the halyard at a point just above where the luff block bottoms out so the leech block can do it's thing.
I would rather not have to mess with the topping lift if possible, but interested to see if anyone else adjusts it for whatever reason.

 

[Warren Holybee]

That looks good. I think the reasoning of having a block and tackle in the boom is that the arrangement pulls both the tack and the clew at the same time and solves the problem you are having. Not that is is possible with our boom, but this is the arrangement: https://support.seldenmast.com/files/595-706-E.pdf

I don't think there is any reason to adjust the topping lift, except after reefing as most sails are cut such that the boom is much higher when reefed. I find that if I don't adjust after reefing, the topping lift is so loose it wraps the backstay.

 

[DGA]

Yes. I'll see after I get this new sail, where the boom ends up. But that's it, you are trying to raise the boom with the reef line, and through a lot of high friction points, and maybe it's easier to raise it with the topping lift first.

 

[Warren Holybee]

Don't raise the boom with the reef line. Ease the halyard more.

 

[terry_thatcher]

I do all my reefing (3 reefs) at the mast, letting the monitor steer when single handing. I typically raise the topping lift to help control the boom, then relax it when done. Old school, I guess, but it mostly works. I may, however, try Warren's suggestion to lower the sail farther before I tighten the reefing lines. I often find myself using a winch on the boom to tighten the clew reef line. My only problem, really, is I rely on two hooks at the mast to accept the tack cringles. The 3rd reef tack cringle (actually two stainless eyes attached to a strop going through the sail's cringle) is very hard to attach. I often end up using my cunningham tackle. Suggestions welcome.

 

[DGA]

I think, to get a single line system to work, I'm going to have to use the topping lift. Problem I have is that if the luff block bottoms out before the leech block, it gets messy and sort of bound up at the base of the boom, before the leech block pulls down, and then the line won't continue to run to pull the leech. Possibly I will mark the main halyard and lower it to a point so the luff block is clear and then maybe it has enough power to lift the boom. I'll just have to try both ideas I guess.

 

[terry_thatcher]

Well, good luck. Single line sounds nice in theory, but if it jams or doesn't work each and every time, that could be a problem in a real blow--when you most want the reefing system to work.

 

[yurek]

Terry: I add spectra loops about 5 in long to the ss eyes for reefing.
It is easier to pull the loop then stainless ring. If I'm in rush and can not attach the ring to the hook I'm putting the loop.

 

[Warren Holybee]

When I got my last main, instead of the doge bone straps with metal rings, I made dyneema loops. The metal rings work well enough, but bang on the mast, and on long passages gets to be nerve racking and I was loosing sleep over it. Literally, as all night long I would hear BANG! as they slapped against the mast.
The strap for the 3rd reef is significantly longer than the others.

 

[david_buckley]

I have never needed to adjust the toping lift. I have had issues with it vibrating when the main is down and the topper is tensioned by the main sheet. I rigged spectra loop off my heavily supported bimini frame that works as gallows, literally the best thing I ever did. I can't imagine not having a way to secure the boom. The other challenge was the topper would wrap around the back stay when reefed deep and rolling in a seaway. I solved that by adding in a length of bungee that takes up any slack in the topper when the boom lifts. I have slab at the mast. I added a winch to the aft side of the mast and really only crank the last couple of inches, like Warren I make sure and lower the sail enough. I have snap shackles on spectra for the luff rings. I hated hooks and rings because they fall off before you can tension. Reef one I pass the shackle through the loop and clip it to the padeye on the mast. Reef two uses the same line but snaps directly to the tack ring this solves for the different stack heights. The third reef has its own line that is even longer for the stack height. When not in use the shackles are attached to the pad eye so they can't clank around. Simple and flawless. When I can't get to the mast and reef it's time for a wheelchair accessible power boat.

 

[Warren Holybee]

Interesting solution for the topping lift wrapping the backstay. Self adjusting is a nice touch! That is of course, why they are supposed to be adjusted. I am actually considering a solid vang to get rid of the topping lift altogether. The wear on the leach of the sail is not insignificant when you are putting lots of ocean miles on the boat.

I secure my boom by taking a short line from a rail (actually where my spinnaker block is mounted on the rail) to the mainsheet bale. Then, the mainsheet, topping lift, and that line hold the boom solid. I don't like anything on my boat moving that shouldn't be. I sometimes use the same line as sort of a preventor if I am sailing upwind. Especially in light air with rollie swells. When the boat suddenly rolls to leeward, I don't want the boom to move.

 

[david_buckley]

Interesting solution for the topping lift wrapping the backstay. Self adjusting is a nice touch! That is of course, why they are supposed to be adjusted. I am actually considering a solid vang to get rid of the topping lift altogether. The wear on the leach of the sail is not insignificant when you are putting lots of ocean miles on the boat.

I secure my boom by taking a short line from a rail (actually where my spinnaker block is mounted on the rail) to the mainsheet bale. Then, the mainsheet, topping lift, and that line hold the boom solid. I don't like anything on my boat moving that shouldn't be. I sometimes use the same line as sort of a preventor if I am sailing upwind. Especially in light air with rollie swells. When the boat suddenly rolls to leeward, I don't want the boom to move.

Warren,
Those vangs are great for racing. They are noisy though; the spring makes noise when the boom lifts and falls. Go take a test drive first and spend time down below when it's rolling. Maybe some are better than others, but I would not have any of the ones I have been exposed to on a boat where I am trying to sleep underway. I am sure you are aware that vangs in general put a lot of loads on the gooseneck and the attachments at the mast and boom. They can cause the boom to break at the vang connection when the boom snags a wave. You got all the way around the world without one, why add it if you don't need it? They probably cost as much or more then the main you are trying to protect.
If you have not already, replace your topper with thin ~ 4mm spectra. It is way easier on the leach than even coated wire because it is soft and has less inertia. The bungee system helps keep it off the leech without adjustments. It's cheap too (way less than a main) I replace it every handful of years to keep it fresh and worry free.
I am with you about boom movement. I have preventers ready to go all the time. I have lashed big blocks to the stanchion bases that are just forward of the mast on both port and starboard. That lead creates the same/similar angles as going to the bow cleats, but the stanchion bases have four bolt and original bow cleat only two. The line has a quality high load carabiner that hooks to the mainsheet bail and the other end leads to secondary cockpit winches. A cleat at the cockpit end would suffice. The port side secondary is my furling winch, so I often use a cleat on the outside of the coaming for the preventer. These lines are also used for the pole after guy. Jibing requires swapping them, but I am not racing around buoys, so I live with that con and most designs require swapping the lead. I furl the genoa up and center the main pre jibe and then take my time. I love that they are always ready and it helps with the motivation to put it on as soon as the boom is eased from close hauled. They work great as a vang too, although I find it's usually faster without vang unless you are running. More twist is less weather helm, so less rudder needed on most reaching angles.

Dave,
Sorry if I sounded edgy with my wheelchair comment. Respect to you for making your boat the way you want her, and I understand the motivation to keep it all in the cockpit. I was anti jib Furler when I was a teenager, I would not cruise without one now. I was 20 years younger when I made all those rigging decisions, got things working well and have not messed with them much since. If I were gearing up to do a bunch more shorthanded distance sailing, I might revisit leading things aft but having dealt with the drag, spaghetti and lines under foot on other boats I doubt I would go there for our little boats even as I age. As you are finding out adding single line brings even longer reef lines, more drag and challenges tightening the leach reef. It looks like you are on the right track to sorting the system out.

Railings at the mast now that could keep me sailing longer. Honestly, we are mostly weekend warriors now with winter trips to Florida or Bahamas happening every three years or so. We mostly just "lazy sail" with genoa alone unless we are going all day.
Oh, and I am starting to look at power cat and trawler listings......I have been windsurfing lately for fitness and mental health, and it scratches my sailing itch, so I am starting to consider trading the sails for a big rectangular bunk rather than the "snuggler" up front I may not do cruising sail forever, but I will always be on or in the water. I move slow too, it maybe another 20 years before we sell or give Sayonara away!

Have fun with projects mates!

 

[Warren Holybee]

I did use a vang, but a block and tackle type, not a solid type. I will not sail without a vang, it's a very important tool, especially downwind. But I also had to replace my mainsail before I made it all the way around, due to damage at the leach. A combination I think of UV damage and chafe from the topping lift. Good advice to check before buying.

I trust the cleats 10x more than the station bases. I have put huge loads on them. I have a few broken bolts on stanchions that I can't replace because I can't get to the underside. I don't go to those cleats for my preventor though. I have a pad-eye on centerline forward of the anchor locker. I have 2 low friction rings lashed to it. There is no advantage to using expensive blocks for a preventor. As for angles, with the end of the boom well outside of the lifelines, I'm not sure how you think going to a station much closer would be a similar angle? The stanchion probably has a better angle on a reach but sailing deep where there is a real chance of an accidently jibe, the bow would be better. At least that is how I imagine it without measuring. The other advantage going to the bow, is that I have 2 preventors, one for each side, and they both come back on the starboard side. So, I can use the same winch for each preventor. The port winch being for my furling line.

 

[terry_thatcher]

I also would also not trust the stanchion bases. I took all mine off (yes, had to cut some cabinetry) and found NO backing plates. My machinist made me threaded backing plates. Then I discovered that the holes in the stanchion bases were not uniform, base to base. Back to the machinist for more backing plates, matched to each stanchion base. Plates glued to inside of gunwale and bolted to the bases. Means the bases are removable. Morgan did some things right, but certainly some things wrong. For my main preventer, my machinist made me two stainless plates with matching backing plates. they bolt to the forward inside gunwale, by the anchor locker, with a piece sticking above the cap rail. there I have my blocks. My preventers run along the deck to the cockpit when rigged, with the forward end going through the forward blocks and then attached to the boom line part of the preventers. For that attachment I use dyneema soft shackles. Don't know why david and warren's names are appearing here. Tried to reply to David and there it was.

 

[terry_thatcher]

Warren,
Those vangs are great for racing. They are noisy though; the spring makes noise when the boom lifts and falls. Go take a test drive first and spend time down below when it's rolling. Maybe some are better than others, but I would not have any of the ones I have been exposed to on a boat where I am trying to sleep underway. I am sure you are aware that vangs in general put a lot of loads on the gooseneck and the attachments at the mast and boom. They can cause the boom to break at the vang connection when the boom snags a wave. You got all the way around the world without one, why add it if you don't need it? They probably cost as much or more then the main you are trying to protect.
If you have not already, replace your topper with thin ~ 4mm spectra. It is way easier on the leach than even coated wire because it is soft and has less inertia. The bungee system helps keep it off the leech without adjustments. It's cheap too (way less than a main) I replace it every handful of years to keep it fresh and worry free.
I am with you about boom movement. I have preventers ready to go all the time. I have lashed big blocks to the stanchion bases that are just forward of the mast on both port and starboard. That lead creates the same/similar angles as going to the bow cleats, but the stanchion bases have four bolt and original bow cleat only two. The line has a quality high load carabiner that hooks to the mainsheet bail and the other end leads to secondary cockpit winches. A cleat at the cockpit end would suffice. The port side secondary is my furling winch, so I often use a cleat on the outside of the coaming for the preventer. These lines are also used for the pole after guy. Jibing requires swapping them, but I am not racing around buoys, so I live with that con and most designs require swapping the lead. I furl the genoa up and center the main pre jibe and then take my time. I love that they are always ready and it helps with the motivation to put it on as soon as the boom is eased from close hauled. They work great as a vang too, although I find it's usually faster without vang unless you are running. More twist is less weather helm, so less rudder needed on most reaching angles.

Dave,
Sorry if I sounded edgy with my wheelchair comment. Respect to you for making your boat the way you want her, and I understand the motivation to keep it all in the cockpit. I was anti jib Furler when I was a teenager, I would not cruise without one now. I was 20 years younger when I made all those rigging decisions, got things working well and have not messed with them much since. If I were gearing up to do a bunch more shorthanded distance sailing, I might revisit leading things aft but having dealt with the drag, spaghetti and lines under foot on other boats I doubt I would go there for our little boats even as I age. As you are finding out adding single line brings even longer reef lines, more drag and challenges tightening the leach reef. It looks like you are on the right track to sorting the system out.

Railings at the mast now that could keep me sailing longer. Honestly, we are mostly weekend warriors now with winter trips to Florida or Bahamas happening every three years or so. We mostly just "lazy sail" with genoa alone unless we are going all day.
Oh, and I am starting to look at power cat and trawler listings......I have been windsurfing lately for fitness and mental health, and it scratches my sailing itch, so I am starting to consider trading the sails for a big rectangular bunk rather than the "snuggler" up front I may not do cruising sail forever, but I will always be on or in the water. I move slow too, it maybe another 20 years before we sell or give Sayonara away!

Have fun with projects mates!

How and where do your attach the bungee for the topping lift?

 

[terry_thatcher]

When I got my last main, instead of the doge bone straps with metal rings, I made dyneema loops. The metal rings work well enough, but bang on the mast, and on long passages gets to be nerve racking and I was loosing sleep over it. Literally, as all night long I would hear BANG! as they slapped against the mast.
The strap for the 3rd reef is significantly longer than the others.

How and where do the dyneema loops attach to the sail?

 

[Warren Holybee]

How and where do the dyneema loops attach to the sail?

It was a bit of a challenge, but I spliced the loop through the reefing cringle.

 

[Warren Holybee]

I was at the boat today, and took a picture of my dyneema lops for reefing. You have to learn how to make a dyneema loop, and making one this size in place was a challenge. But it's a super simple solution and stops the banging.

 

[david_buckley]

Thanks, gents, for your questions. I put the main up yesterday on a short creek cruise that I would not have otherwise, simply to get you these pics. I ended up having a really nice sail because of it.

I agree that my preventer solution is unconventional, Rod or Olin would not agree. I rigged it about 20 years ago just to see if it would work, and let’s just say it has been properly tested by now. I would not post something I did not have confidence in, but anyone considering this should take Warren and Terry’s comments to heart.

In the pic called “difference in preventer lead,” I have a line from my samson post to the boom end as well as my typical preventer. The boom is all the way out, and both leads look reasonable to my eye. Sure, the lead to the bow is better, but not a huge difference.

The stanchion has four 1/4" bolts with backing plates, which is more than most cleats or pad eyes. I had every stanchion off when I glassed the hull-to-deck joint, so they are all accessible. I have never let a piece of cabinetry or an interior pan stop me from getting access. I cut it if I need to often with a hole saw. I don’t recall whether the original build used backing plates or just washers, but I sailed a lot of ocean miles using the preventer this way before I re-bed the bases.

When I glassed the hull-to-deck joint shut, I re-bedded the stanchions and made-up backing/tapping plates with threaded holes that I glued to the inside, so any further work can be done from the deck. The key to alignment with tapping plates is to use only two holes per plate, so there are two separate plates for each four-bolt base.

The load from the preventer is in plane with the base, so there is no bending. The lashing is trapped so it cannot ride up.

I love that it doubles as an after guy for the pole. I rig a fore guy as well, so the pole does not swing when the sail is furled allowing a quick single-handed jibe. What can I say, this has worked for me. If it spooks you, don’t do it. Whatever you choose for a preventer, make sure it is easy and always ready so that it gets used.

Check out the pic of the helm. Those two vertical tubes were the key to getting the Bimini frame stiff enough so that when the boat rolls, the solar panels and Bimini do not move. They make amazing handholds when passing around the helm. They provide compressive support and allow me to secure the boom with a loop of line. This was another “test” decades ago that has stood the test of time.

The topper is tied to the end of the boom, and you can see how simple the bungee solution is. It’s just knots, no splicing.

The pics of the reef tacks should be self-explanatory. The block attached to the reef tack pad eye is for leading my externally led second reef line down to the winch. Reefs 2 and 3 are external, and reef 1 is inside the boom. I am surprised the blocks are not noisy, but I have not noticed it. Maybe once the lines are led, they keep the blocks from moving. I only rig the second and third reefs when I am going offshore.

You will notice my outhaul is lashed in place. I never have had a vang. On a reach these boats sail faster with twist, sailing deeper the preventer should be on and that works as a vang. I do not have an adjustable traveler. It is not that I am not performance minded, I race other boats competitively. The extra cost, clutter, maintenance and in the case of the vang point loads are not worth it to me in this application. It's just not that kind of boat for me. When I want to nerd out like that, I go one design racing.

I spent a bunch of years working as a sail maker, sail repairer is more like it. UV damage gets easy to spot after a while. What I noticed was all old mains had much more UV damage right along the leech and what I have come to realize is the UV gets through the covers and because the sail is flaked it forms a strip of damage. Keep your covers fresh, choose the darkest cloth, ask for a double layer in way of the center seam when you replace it.

I worked for years a yacht designer and one of the greatest joys this boat has given me is the ability to experiment and try things that my bosses or the customers or the yard owners would not allow me to try. Make the boat yours, the way you want it, you are the captain!