Coy McDonald
New Member
Has anyone replaced their toe rails? I understand it is a massive job and the teak is very expensive.
Toe rails
- Thread starter Coy McDonald
- Start date
toph3r
Member
This thread was from a couple of months ago:
So it sounds like maybe NorthChannel recently did it?
Attaching rub rail to cap rail suggestions
Trying to finish my cap rail replacement project. I have dry fitted the cap and will be laying it down in the next week or so. Shifting my focus to the rub rail. I was planning to use #10 316 SS screws, most of which will be inserted from the bottom into the cap (my new cap is slightly thicker...
www.morgan38.org
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
There is an artificial teak made. Can't remember its trade name. Wonder if that would serve. I still struggle to keep my teak looking good.. Wish I had an aluminum, slotted bulwark cap, as is now common on many sailboats.
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
I have replaced my grab rails with Plasteak, and will be replacing other bits as well. If I have the ability to replace the toe rails, I would use the plasteak. But, I think if I ever need to do that, selling the boat is a better option. The plasteak is zero maintenance, and is grippy when wet. The look is reasonably close to freshly sanded and sealed teak. Not as nice looking as varnish or oil, but still looks fine.
Teak is evil, IMHO. Get rid of it any chance you have.
Teak is evil, IMHO. Get rid of it any chance you have.
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
One caution. I switched from varnish to oil, and it is the far easier choice. But be very careful not to let oil drip onto anything other than the teak. I now have some oil stain runs, that no amount of cleaning/polishing with any type of chemical will remove.
Depending on how bad it is, you may not need to actually sand. You can use oxalic acid to "whiten" the teak and scrub them clean.
DGA
Active Member
Thanks, good tip on keeping the oil off other surfaces. There are small remaining patches of varnish that have to be sanded, and the wood is a bit rough in surface quality, so a good random orbit sanding will do wonders I think.
On the topic of varnish, do you have a recommendation for the best varnish to use for the, not sure what it's called, the wood under the jib winches? Those I will varnish.
On the topic of varnish, do you have a recommendation for the best varnish to use for the, not sure what it's called, the wood under the jib winches? Those I will varnish.
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
If you sand, do not use any power tools.
The best way to remove varnish is with a heat gun and scraper. It goes quickly. I striped all my varnish under passage crossing the south Atlantic, working about 15 minutes per day because I only had enough solar to run my heat gun that long. Heat it until it just starts to bubble, and then the scraper will peal it right off. You should only need minimal hand sanding after that. The goal is to remove the absolute minimum amount of wood as possible. A little bit of texture isn't a bad thing if you are oiling. It makes the wood non-slip when wet.
Sorry, I don't have a brand recommendation of varnish.
The best way to remove varnish is with a heat gun and scraper. It goes quickly. I striped all my varnish under passage crossing the south Atlantic, working about 15 minutes per day because I only had enough solar to run my heat gun that long. Heat it until it just starts to bubble, and then the scraper will peal it right off. You should only need minimal hand sanding after that. The goal is to remove the absolute minimum amount of wood as possible. A little bit of texture isn't a bad thing if you are oiling. It makes the wood non-slip when wet.
Sorry, I don't have a brand recommendation of varnish.
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
I use Cetol. Easier than varnish, but not as nice looking. It looks better with a final 2 coats of "cetol gloss," but I usually run out of energy before then.
struell
Stephen Ruell
Good advice from Warren Holybee except I would use Semco sealer. It is much easier than teak oil or varnish and doesn’t need to be removed later. It looks OK to me and each spring I wash it with oxalic acid cleaner - Bar Keepers Friend or Ajax powdered cleaners have that. Then go over it again with another coat or two of Semco. There have been other posts about it in the past. If you spill it on the fiberglass it seems to be easy to clean up. The wood will gray a bit over the summer but the oxalic acid removes it. 
Mitchell S Allen
Active Member
I will second Warren's method of
removing varnish, and even Cetol. Heat gently and scrape.
I found Bahco carbide scrapers to be far better than anything I'd ever used. I can't stress how good they are! They make all kinds of sizes, they're ergonomic too. And they just really work well. I bought replacement blades and have not yet needed them.
Sonata came with years of Cetol on all the teak. But it was the awful yellow/orange color. I stripped it and oiled it which didn't hold up long. Back to Cetol or Semco?
I've heard really good things about Awlgrips Alwood system. Like a wood boats brightwork that hasn't needed any attention in 12 years!
Mitchell
removing varnish, and even Cetol. Heat gently and scrape.
I found Bahco carbide scrapers to be far better than anything I'd ever used. I can't stress how good they are! They make all kinds of sizes, they're ergonomic too. And they just really work well. I bought replacement blades and have not yet needed them.
Sonata came with years of Cetol on all the teak. But it was the awful yellow/orange color. I stripped it and oiled it which didn't hold up long. Back to Cetol or Semco?
I've heard really good things about Awlgrips Alwood system. Like a wood boats brightwork that hasn't needed any attention in 12 years!
Mitchell
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
A major issue for me is that water collects near and under the genoa track. That gets under the finish and things deteriorate. I would fear that would happen even to the Awlgrip product.
john english
Active Member
Cetol Everyhing else is a waste of time
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
This weekend was my weekend for Oil. On a whim I picked up a can of Cetol Natural Teak. If this stuff holds up as well as others say, I am sold. I did the same prep as I would for oil, Oxalic acid and scrubbing with a SS scrubber. No sanding. Masked with blue tape. Then, per the instructions, I wiped with Interlux thinner 216. Then I just painted it on. It looks just like varnish, same color, same sheen. Of course, I didn't spend 2 weeks sanding to get a perfect smooth finish, so it looks more like oil than a good varnish job. But it looks fine, with the same golden hues as a varnish or oil would. I did the one coat of the starboard side in one weekend, will do port and a second coat next weekend hopefully.
I bet with lots of sanding and a few coats, it would be indistinguishable from true varnish. I note that there are more colors available now then before, so I think the orange color problem is solved.
I bet with lots of sanding and a few coats, it would be indistinguishable from true varnish. I note that there are more colors available now then before, so I think the orange color problem is solved.
jimcleary
James M. Cleary
The problem with Cetol is the same as varnish on the cap rail teak: it is part varnish and part oil. Because the cap rails and the coamings can't be coated on their undersides, moisture will migrate up through the wood and up under the hard varnish coating. This will appear as dark spotting and blisters under the varnish. A product like Semco doesn't have varnish and allows the moisture to breath out of the wood. It has to be applied more often but is much easier to apply and to clean. We have tried every snake oil available over the years and find Semco the easiest. Did I mention there is no sanding involved?
Jim
Jim
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
I never experienced that when my rails were varnished, but it makes sense. It also makes sense that when masking is you leave a hairline of white that varnish would seal it .
Anyway, applying more often is a deal killer. I can't afford it, or i would rip every piece of teak off my boat.
The cetol went on very easy. No sanding, looks between fresh oil and varnish. With sanding and enough coats it would look just like varnish.
Also, Cetol contains no varnish or oil as far as i can tell. Its made from synthetic resins, pigments, and solvents.
Anyway, applying more often is a deal killer. I can't afford it, or i would rip every piece of teak off my boat.
The cetol went on very easy. No sanding, looks between fresh oil and varnish. With sanding and enough coats it would look just like varnish.
Also, Cetol contains no varnish or oil as far as i can tell. Its made from synthetic resins, pigments, and solvents.
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
Ok, here are some pictures. The combing is representative of what I started with. I still need to do those. Then you can see a rail after cleaning with Oxalic acid and a stainless steel scotch bright pad. Then some pictures of the finished results after 2 coats. I did it over two weekends. It could be done in 3 days, one for cleaning, one for each coat.
You can see in the picture of the starboard bow remnants of masking tape glue, a reminder of why I hate teak with a passion, so much so I might not even have bought this boat had I known. I spent a week sanding and making my teak perfect. Then masked it, then got pulled away for another obligation. By the time I got back, the sanding I had done was ruined, the tape was stuck and won't come off, and I am just done with that. Never again. IMHO the only excuse for finely finished teak is if you can afford to pay someone else to do it.
For a project that I did in a few days without any sanding and will lots of breaks and relaxing, I am extremely pleased with these results.
Regarding rot from underneath, my boat is 45 years old. The previous owner kept if varnished, and I attempted (failed) to varnish it. The teak is overall in great shape, solid without rot. If it hasn't been a problem in 45 years, I don't see how it will all of the sudden become a problem.
You can see in the picture of the starboard bow remnants of masking tape glue, a reminder of why I hate teak with a passion, so much so I might not even have bought this boat had I known. I spent a week sanding and making my teak perfect. Then masked it, then got pulled away for another obligation. By the time I got back, the sanding I had done was ruined, the tape was stuck and won't come off, and I am just done with that. Never again. IMHO the only excuse for finely finished teak is if you can afford to pay someone else to do it.
For a project that I did in a few days without any sanding and will lots of breaks and relaxing, I am extremely pleased with these results.
Regarding rot from underneath, my boat is 45 years old. The previous owner kept if varnished, and I attempted (failed) to varnish it. The teak is overall in great shape, solid without rot. If it hasn't been a problem in 45 years, I don't see how it will all of the sudden become a problem.
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
So, the Semco looks as if nothing is on the wood, is that right?
Warren, I use the old kind of Cetol--just because it has been on for years. It fails sort of like varnish, but in many fewer places if I get a couple of coats on each spring. The rainy winters in Portland are the hardest on it, even with my winter cover up. I often patch its bad spots, which means the coating is not a consistent color, but I am too old to care anymore.
Finally, I notice you have no rub rail on Eliana. Adavida has an aluminum rub rail that covers the outside of the teak. A few years ago I painted that small horizontal piece a dark brown, using high quality oil enamel. Then I covered it with a new aluminum rub rail. Of course, I have to cover that when I put on Cetol, but a 1" strip of masking tape is pretty easy to put on. Of course, for all of this, prep and masking takes the time.
Warren, I use the old kind of Cetol--just because it has been on for years. It fails sort of like varnish, but in many fewer places if I get a couple of coats on each spring. The rainy winters in Portland are the hardest on it, even with my winter cover up. I often patch its bad spots, which means the coating is not a consistent color, but I am too old to care anymore.
Finally, I notice you have no rub rail on Eliana. Adavida has an aluminum rub rail that covers the outside of the teak. A few years ago I painted that small horizontal piece a dark brown, using high quality oil enamel. Then I covered it with a new aluminum rub rail. Of course, I have to cover that when I put on Cetol, but a 1" strip of masking tape is pretty easy to put on. Of course, for all of this, prep and masking takes the time.
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
The rub rail was in awful shape, so I tossed it. I thought maybe I will replace with stainless, but it's really low on my list. I really like the look without it, and I strive to not hit anything anyway.
NorthChannel
Member
Yes, I am about 90 percent done with my cap and rub rail replacement. I still have to attach the stern rub rail, and the fitting at the bow which includes putting down the two forward pieces once I get the final two lap joints cut. I just ordered a 9" wide piece from Homestead Hardwoods today for the bow piece. I winter in the Western Highlands of Guatemala and I am taking my old piece and the teak down next week and having my carpenter there craft the bow piece. It will only cost me about $50 US dollars for labor. I got too ambitious and have already received the Awlwood varnish in June. I am going to use the "red" primer to give it a darker look. If anyone has experience with Alwood, I would like to hear. I have found Homestead Hardwoods in Ohio and Fair Wind Fasteners to be great suppliers of teak and stainless steel screws.
If anyone has a 382 and is thinking about doing this project, I carefully removed my old cap (about 160 plugs and screws by hand) and used for a pattern. I even re-drilled holes in the cap and have only drill a couple new holes into the fiberglass. All of the genoa track holes lined up! Any recommendations on what to bed the genoa track with? Was thinking of using butyl tape.
If anyone has a 382 and is thinking about doing this project, I carefully removed my old cap (about 160 plugs and screws by hand) and used for a pattern. I even re-drilled holes in the cap and have only drill a couple new holes into the fiberglass. All of the genoa track holes lined up! Any recommendations on what to bed the genoa track with? Was thinking of using butyl tape.
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john english
Active Member
I replaced the aluminum with stainless many years ago. The aluminum had a flat back, the stainless is a curved extrusion and when tightened the edges dig into and break the wood finish. Had to fill the radius with epoxy filler. The stainless was a bear to bend around the stern.
NorthChannel
Member
I am debating replacing the aluminum as well. For the most part, mine are in good shape. I have one piece that is marred from a previous owner. Has anyone replaced with TACO Marine product?
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
I'm sure the TACO would be great. That is the brand I looked at when I decided I instead liked the look without them. $2000 for enough to go all around the boat. Plus $400 shipping. Ouch.
Don't crash into things.
tacomarine.com
Don't crash into things.
S11-451SP12B
Elegance, durability and impact resistance are the three main reasons why boat builders choose our TACO Stainless-Steel Rub Rail.
tacomarine.com
david_buckley
David Buckley
I replace the tow rails ~10 years ago and it has been worth the effort. The issue for me was leaks through the seam and the millions of fasteners that go into the rail, so I glassed the seam shut. The teak was tired, I learned to hate varnish work keeping it up, so I used pvc plastic and painted them with kiwi grip. I was able to bond everything down with a few screws per plank that do not go into the hull. I did not put the track back on. I used a handful of strategically place pad eyes. The end result looks great and doesn't leak. The kiwi grip has held up well, but it is so easy to use that repairs and tough ups are a breeze. We painted all the non-skid with kiwi grip a few years including the cap rail, it looks fantastic. Here is a link to a more detailed description.
Hull to deck joint repair and cap rails
After years of ignoring the hull to deck joint leaks we tackled the problem head on. It was a BIG job but the results have been worth it. The seam is dry and strong and the cap rails only need touch up paint every few years. Tom Mcnulty asked about this job so I figured I should post the reply...
www.morgan38.org
Warren Holybee
Well-Known Member
For sure I would use PVC if I ever have to replace. I replaced my grab rails with Plasteak, which looks like bare teak from 10 feet away, has some grain molded in, and is non-slip. Their website has a M382 that was done with Plasteak, but no idea whos it is.
But, My teak is in pretty good shape. If it does get bad, I will probably sell the boat. The cost (including time in the yard, labor, cost to store interior parts while working on it etc.) is probably equal to the value of the boat. I'm sure it's feasible in other parts where you haul out every year anyway, but anything that requires hauling out in California is a major project. And if it can't be done in two weeks on the hard, I don't want to do it.
Scroll through these pictures. Not all are a Morgan, but a few are, and I think it looks great:
www.plasteak.com
But, My teak is in pretty good shape. If it does get bad, I will probably sell the boat. The cost (including time in the yard, labor, cost to store interior parts while working on it etc.) is probably equal to the value of the boat. I'm sure it's feasible in other parts where you haul out every year anyway, but anything that requires hauling out in California is a major project. And if it can't be done in two weeks on the hard, I don't want to do it.
Scroll through these pictures. Not all are a Morgan, but a few are, and I think it looks great:
Custom Teak Boat Toe Rail Replacements - PlasTEAK Inc.
The warm look of teak adds charm and a classic look to any boat. Yours can be beautiful ALL of the time without the work.
www.plasteak.com
terry_thatcher
Terence Thatcher
I have a leak somewhere under the cap rail along the foredeck. If I were to remove the teak, would there be a way to seal the glass and replace the teak? Will the teak break apart if I try to remove it?