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Repair of dry rot on cabin sole.

Warren Holybee

Active Member
A bit of backstory is necessary. When I bought Eliana, the interior had recently been refinished. It still smelled of varnish, and was gorgeous. Neither me or the surveyor noted anything wrong, however teak veneer had been used to cover and repair the sole, hiding some dry rot that was not removed or repaired first. I noticed it about 6 months later when the area went soft, and as the years went by it turned into a hole. I stopped the spread with treatment and sealing with epoxy, but now it is finally time to repair it properly.

The section in question is the area outside the head, and the doorway to the vee berth. I am trying to figure out how it comes out. I have removed the bungs over the screws. Whoever did the veneer did a good job and bungs go through the veneer to the screws, they didn't just put the veneer over top of it. I found no screws, just empty screw holes. On close inspection, it looks like this section of sole has shims under it (seen from the mast bucket) to level it after the distortion common in that area.

This section of sole seems to go under the head, and might go under the cabinet across as well. How would that be uninstalled/reinstalled? Removing the head is obviously not an option. And neither is removing the cabinet across. My thought is to cut it down the center, and remove it in two pieces, as long as there are not screws under the head that I can't get to. If it comes out in 2 pieces, I can still use it as a pattern for a new section.

Veneer has also been applied to the outside of the head, and maybe the cabinet. I need to cut about 3/4" of the bottom of that veneer (covered with trim later) to get the sole out.

There is a beam visible that is loose. There is no tabbing at all on it. I will need to evaluate that once I have better access to it. I don't think it is structural, just to support the sole, but I think it needs to be tabbed to the structure it is free from.

The bulkhead that forms the doorway to the vee berth is a sponge with no structure at all. There was a trim piece covering it that looked factory, but obviously was not. I am trying to figure out if this is structurally needed. If it is, I need to figure a repair. If not, I will be happy to not stub my toe there anymore.

I would love some pictures if anyone knows details of how this area goes together before I attack it with a saw later this week.

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This is the area in question. I have removed the edge trim pieces.

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Closeup of the hole, and rotted bulkhead. It is difficult to image this piece is structural. Assuming it was in good shape, there is almost no material between the lower horizontal part and the vertical part on the right.

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Closeup of the beam with no tabbing.

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Closeup of the edge under the cabinet. Not able to see in the picture, but I think (hope) the sole only goes under a veneer, and not under the cabinet itself.

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Here you can see the shim at the seam between the two sole pieces. I removed shims that were around the mast bucket to hold the cover to the same level as the rest of the sole.
 

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Warren, I can't really answer your questions. But what the photos show, sure looks "Factory" as compared to Sonata.
I will be abroad her tomorrow evening and have a closer look. And if you are in the area you're welcome to check it out too. We are at Brickyard Cove. I will be there Tuesday to later on Thursday.
Mitchell
 
It does look factory. Other than not repairing the dry rot before putting down the veneer they couldn't have done a better job.
Looking at the sole under the galley sink it becomes apparent they did it though, as the spacing between the teak and holly slats is much wider on the original floor.

I'll see if I can come by. I am without transportation, but not far from you at marina bay.
 
Warren
I can see differences in your construction to my construction. Dana is hull # 53 (382). The opening in the floor outside the head door on mine extends further forward towards the sill going into the Vbunk. For many years now I have had a wedge to the hull under that sill to support the floor. At this point I have not found any rot. What I am finding is a darkening of the teak and holly veneer that is a recent occurrence. I will take and sent photos when I get out later in the week.

Jim
 
Well, my plans were just changed for me. Work demands. I won't be heading to the boat for the time being. I'll let you know when I can be there Warren. Apologies.
Mitchell
 
Well, after some work and some cutting I got it out. It turns out that during the previous repair they DID replace the section of sole. After realizing that there was no way it was coming out from under the head and cabinet, I cut and removed some of the veneer, and found the original cuts in the sole, and some screws holding it down.

You can see in one picture the original sole extending out from under the cabinet, and the original teak and holly strips that are not matching the veneer that was over it.

The original plywood floor is/was tabbed to the hull at the starboard forward part, and the original laminate went over the tabbing. It seems like when this section was originally replaced, the floor under the tabbing was not removed, and that is where the rot spread from. So, I think I need to cut that tabbing out, and tab the new floor in the way the original was.


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You can see here the removed veneer on the left, and the original sole (with screws through it) on the right.

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The dryrot area. I have a lot of cleanup to do, and also will be replacing the sole in the vee birth, as the rot has started to spread there.

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An update of what I am finding, without pictures for now. :(

The loose beam that was never tabbed in is certainly not structural. You can see it in that last picture of my previous post. There is a rib just aft of it that is well glassed in, that goes under and supports the front of the mast bucket. The loose beam is thin (vertically) and several inches away from the hull, even with some wires to the transducers passing under it.

I don't believe the door sill is structural either, as it sits on top of the sole, and isn't glassed to anything. There is a short rib under the sole that is glassed to the hull, but it only extends about a foot from the centerline.

The mast bucket is well glassed to the hull, with tabbing that looks like it was done after the main construction of the boat. The resin is a distinctly different color from the hull and the other tabbing. I don't know when it might have been done. I have hull number 256, which I don't think was part of the recall. That tabbing is intact.

Somewhat scary, but I don't think affects integrity at all: The forward "lip" of the mast bucket is cracked and bent upward at about a 15 degree angle. This was shimmed to support the hatch there such that it wasn't possible to see it until the sole was lifted. That lip sits on top of the rib described above. I looked at this very closely. I have not (and will not) remove the sole on the port side, but from what I can see with a flashlight, this issue on only on the starboard side. I believe the issue is the PCV pipe that enters the bucket on the starboard side. About a 4 inch section of the lip on the starboard side was cut for that pipe, and that compromised the integrity of the bucket on that side.

I suspect that the tabbing on the bucket was added after that happened and after some settling of the floor. And because that tabbing is still secure, no movement has occurred since then. So I think it is ok. It did survive 35,000 ocean miles!

Jim, I can see in my boat the original size of the opening outside the head. The "shelf" that the original lid fit on is still present near the sill, and visible in the picture of my previous post.

I continue to remove rotted wood. I am going to replace the floor to about a foot inside the vee-birth, and will probably omit the door sill. I removed the door a long time ago because I was not able to stand in the vee-birth and open it without climbing onto the birth. I might re-install it (extended to the floor in place of the sill) and have it open outward.

I met my dock neighbor today, and he recently replaced the sole of his westsail 32 that had extensive rot. He did good work, so hopefully I will have some assistance or at least advise when it comes time to fit new wood.
 
Another update. It is coming slow as my schedule only allows about 30-60 minutes per day only a few days per week. But it is progressing and I'm happy with the results so far.

The subfloor sections are fitted, and don't require any shims to be flat/level and to line up perfectly. Previously it had been shimmed. Some minor shimming of the lid around the mast bucket is needed because of the crack and distortion of the bucket. While it was a bad design, I think I do now understand the reason of the space between the bottom of the bucket and the keel. It is to keep the top of the bucket flush with the floor-the poured keel itself not being 100% consistent in height between builds. So the bucket drops and that floor/bucket interface suffers and shims are required there.

Next is to use 1/2"x2" boards to build a template of the odd shapes of the finish plywood. I will then transfer the shape to some inexpensive sanded 1/4" plywood to make some test floor panels, so mistakes aren't so expensive. Once I have those panels fit perfectly, I will use them as templates to cut the very expensive teak and holly ply.

I am going to leave the bottom door sill out, and will need to rework the bottom of the frame, which was rotten anyway and had to be cut out.. I am still living aboard part time, and it is much nicer to not need to step over it all the time.

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This is the longest/slowest project I've undertaken. More than 2 months and no end in sight. I have until now been able to manage my projects so, if I can't complete them in a couple days, I keep my boat in good sailing condition. Sailing is year-round here, we don't haul out for winter or do any winter maintenance. So, this has been a very exhausting project, taking basically all of my very little spare time. It really needed to be done, but I might not have undertaken if had I known it still wouldn't be done after 2+ months, and there is still alot of work left.

These pictures I have made new floor panels with a cheap pine plywood, so miscuts don't cost so much. I will use these panels as patterns to cut the new teak and holly panels.

The bad news? The spacing of the teak and holly on my sole is unusual. Narrower than what is normally seen, it closely matches the spacing common on teak decks. I think it is metric, 45mm teak and 5mm holly. I have no idea where it came from, no one either local or on the Internet has it. So, for now, the new section won't match. It will, I'm sure, look awful until I do the whole thing, which I really hoped to avoid, even more so now knowing how difficult and time consuming it is.

I bought a 4x8 sheet of the teak and holly this weekend, and hope to have the 2 large pieces fit (but not permanently installed) this week. The smaller 2 next week. Then I need to work out a plan how to fix the door frame. Then the trim pieces, many of which split and broke during remove and will need to be fabricated.

Not sure when I will tackle the rest of the cabin sole. I am pretty depressed at facing all that work and not having a boat during that time.


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Wow Warren - you have my sympathy and understanding.

Every time I do a project like that, it reminds me how difficult it is to be a contractor who does that kind of work. And the boat owner standing there saying "it took you *that* long to do *this*"?. A tough business, indeed.

My guess: I'll bet even if the teak & holly isn't an exact match with your existing sole it will look fine. And in most cases, you might be the only person who really notices it, unless you point it out to someone? It looks like you are being more diligent than 98% of folks doing DIY.

Plus, it's not like our boats are million dollar pieces of fine art. Nonetheless, *some* people manage to sail all the way around the world in them. ;)
 
This shows the difference in widths. The color should be the same once varnished, but difference in width is pretty obvious. My goal is for repairs to be invisible. Of course the boat is old and needs never-ending of refurbishment, but I don't want anyone to look and see that a repair has been made.

I am calmed down now. While I'm not looking forward to the work, there isn't any repair, so it's just replacing the 1/4" plywood. Probably 2 more sheets at $265 per sheet, so not ridiculously expensive. It was glued down with 5200 or 4000, so it is removable with some work. The preferred glue is epoxy, which would have meant cutting out the subfloor and a whole lot of work. I'll probably use 4000 instead of epoxy myself for this reason.

I'm also anxious to move on to other projects. Next will be an icebox/refrigeration conversion. I am seriously impressed with what you did there, and will probably do something similar. I might have some questions on that later.


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If those are in the same color palate, I can’t say it would bother me. And/or I might not notice (for a few years). Me thinks you are doing a great job. And if it bothers someone they can go buy a boat in a different price category
 
warren, any refrigeration work must start with better insulation. Some have torn the box up to do it. I made mine smaller by lining the original box with vacuum insulation encased in fiberglass. (R 40). Then I put in 1" of blue styrofoam (R 5), all then covered with thin fiberglass panels. (hardest part was coming up with the vacuum panel pieces to fit into the strangely shaped box with no significant gaps. I use an Ozefridge holding plate system, with which I am very, very pleased. (Finally, my mast bucket has sunk about 1/2" I have hull 163.
 
That has exactly been my plan. But reviewing Mark's rebuild, I might go that direction instead, and completely tear out the lining and make a new one. I am also wondering if it is possible to get the lining out without destroying it to reuse it. I am thinking of making a large wire foam cutter, and seeing if I can pull it around and under it. But, it's a project for next year.
 
Warren

Great job on the cabin sole. Regarding the ice box conversion, I took a sawzall and cut the existing inner panels at the corners until I had flat panels. the fore and aft and inboard panels were reusable. The bottom panel, because it conformed to the shape of the hull was discarded. After all the old foam was removed, the wood cleaned and painted, lined with mylar paper and aluminum foil, built out with 4" of blue styrofoam, the usable panels were cut to shape, new outboard and bottom panels were made, it was all reassembled by tabbing the corners with 4" cloth tape. It turned out not to be too bad of a job. I have a series of photos of the work if you want me to post them.

Jim
 
I'll start a new thread on the fridge when I get to it. But my plan generally is what has been done by others. I haven't even had a chance to work on my sole this past week.
 
I did a rebuild similar to Jim's, but I sandwiched Aerogel insulation between two foam layers. resulting in R40. I have enough Aerogel to complete another one if anyone is interested.
 
After 2 months of getting dragged into "things I didn't want to deal with" I finally had another weekend on Eliana to work on my sole. I finished fitting the new pieces and got the first coat of polyurethane on. I'm not very good at varnishing, but I expect it will look better after sanding and a couple more coats. I still need to build out the door frame and make/install new trim pieces, but at least when the varnish is done, I can use the boat without tiptoeing around the unprotected wood.

I also have on its way an Isotherm refrigeration unit. The big one with 54" x 12" evaporator and BF50 compressor. Overkill for a box our size, but I got it for $800 including shipping. Plan is to fold the evaporator into about a 1cf box, and mount it on the right side as far as it will fit for a freezer, and the rest left as a fridge, with 2 lids to access one or the other. I will need to mock it up with cardboard, and figure out the best shelving arrangements. Project for January of February.


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Well, damn, that is beautiful. I have another question: what are the grey and black items sitting under the sole opening? An electronic compass of some sort?
 
Well, damn, that is beautiful. I have another question: what are the grey and black items sitting under the sole opening? An electronic compass of some sort?
The forward through hull is depth, the aft is speed. The capsule is part of the speed sensor, it is an ultrasonic sensor with no paddlewheel.
 
looks to me like you may end up with a new boat when you’re through with all this stuff. Great job Warren!!!
 
Warren

Nicely done. The difference in the spacing of the different woods is hardly noticeable. Tell us about your ultrasonic sensor, without a paddlewheel. Who makes it and how well does it work?

Jim
 
It's made by Airmar. It was at one time sold through Raymarine as part of one of their kits, but due to expense and lack of popularity Raymarine discontinued it. I bought it directly from Airmar, who still sold it themselves. It has since been replaced by a NMEA2000 version.

It works great, and is much more consistent that the paddlewheel, and never needs cleaning. It is flush with the hull and you can paint antifoul on it. I still have an issue with starboard/port tack reporting different speeds, but I think that is the location to one side of the keel that causes it.
 
Interesting. I would have thought the fin was under your two instruments. My error. So, does the speed sensor read thru the hull or does it require that part of the unit be on the outside, thus requiring a hole? My speed paddle wheel is forward of the fin and nearly center line. My boat has always been faster on the starboard tack. I attributed that to some difference in the 2 sides of the hull, since they were laid up separately. Hard to know.
 
It is though hull and fits the same though hull as the paddle wheel did. I just pulled out the paddle wheel, and put in the new one. Both the Raymarine paddlewheel and the Airmar sensor are both made by airmar, so are the same dimensions.
 
Warren
Does the unit require the NEMA2000 format? My B&G system is on Nema183, I wonder if it could be compatable?

Jim
 
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