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New to the discussion board, buying new sails for Morgan382

J

jason_hoff

Jason Hoff
Hi all, I bought my 382 about a year and a half ago now, I just found your discussion board recently and having been reading many of the threads, a really excellent discussion board here - thanks to the administrator and all the long time owners / posters on the board.

I am in the process of buying new sails right now, and was just wondering if anyone here has any thoughts or feedback. I have a strong track and batt cars so I am going with a bull batten main, I am also getting a 120% genoa and a cruising chute. I got some quotes from various local lofts (in houston, tx area): Neil Pryde Sails (cameron), Banks Sails, UK-Halsey, and also from 2 discount online lofts: Rolly Tasker Sails, Lee Sails.

The price quotes I got were:

Main (full batt, 3 reefs):
Neil Pryde: ($3461 - 10%) + 6.25% tax == $3309.00
Banks: $3360.00 + 6.25% tax == $3570.00
UK: $2700.00 + 8.25% tax == $2922.00
Rolly Tasker: $1821.00 (incl. shipping)
Lee Sails: $1500.00 (incl. shipping)

Genoa (120%):
Neil Pryde: ($3615 - 10%) + 6.25% tax == $3456.00
Banks: $2480 + 6.25% tax == $2635.00
UK: $2350.00 ($2100.0 + $250.00 for foam) + 8.25% tax == $2543.00
Rolly Tasker: $1855.00 (incl. shipping)
Lee Sails: $1915.00 (incl. shipping)

Chute (tri-radial, 46' x 27', sock):
Neil Pryde: $2800.00
Banks: $2800.00
UK: $2800.00
Rolly Tasker: $2000.00
Lee Sails: $1850.00

The spec sheets they sent me were very similar between all the lofts, so obviously the mail order lofts seem like the best deal ... but I am little hesitant just because they are sooo much less expensive. Anyone have any experience with discount lofts? Also, anyone have any thoughts on full vs. partial or no battens, or on the optimum size of genoa for these boats? I was a little hesitant to go with the full batten main because my boat has a lot of weather helm and I always reef the main first, so I didnt want to add more power to the main - but I just raised my gooseneck 20" to make room for a full height bimini and the area of the new full batt main will recover the 8% or so I lost by raising the boom ...
 
Whatever works for you! I would go with someone who come to the boat and discuss with you what you want and then build it. That way you are satisfied. Mailorder-Good Luck!
 
Last year I got a new full batten main from Doyal sails in Ft Lauderdale. They recommended a plastic strip that slides up the mast track (permenant) and then the sail slides & batten cars slide on it. This thing is SUPER! Main goes up/down with ease. I also got there "stack pack" mainsail lazy jack system and integral zipper main sail cover - undo the halyard and bang/zip - sail is stowed.
Total price was approx $3500. Used it for three months in the Bahamas this spring with zero problems.
 
With sails, if you are lucky you get what you pay for. That said there are a lot of reasons to pick a local sail maker over mail order. The main one is your concern of no local support. I know of someone that bought mail order sails and regreted it greatly.
I would suggest you examine the construction of the sails you expect to buy from each vendor, ask to see a recently made sail and examine the workamnship and the details at the corners and reef points. How much re enforncing material is used will make the sail last longer. Some sails come with no re-enforcing at all. Sail cloth quality is also important, make sure you are getting Bainbridge or another hi quality cloth.
I myself am biased towards Pryde sails just beacuse of the details and workamnship I have seen in the work they have done for several friends.
Its you nickel, do your homework, make your choice.

Jose Santin
Siboney M382
 
David Lindsay at Cameron sold my Neil Pride main and I have been very happy with the trade winds package. Ask him about it.

Good Luck,
Dave
 
The two most important attributes of any boat is the ability to keep the ocean out and to have motive power. Sails and rig being critical elements of the latter, there is no economy in buying cheap. Jose said it just right.

Jimmie's law states, "While the most expensive is not necessarily the best, the best is always expensive."

Well made sails will provide good service for years after the bargain brands have become shade awnings.

Jimmie
Dry Martini
 
One other thought, take good care of these expensive sails. Keep them covered when not up and clean yearly.
 
All, thanks for the feedback and info.

I did talk to Doyle Sails today, their qoute for main + stack pack was $4380.00, so the I would say Vaughan you got an excellent deal on your package with the strong track for $3500.00, I mentioned this to the guys here, but the houston loft was not willing to match that price - even given the fact that I dont need the strong track (actually already have a strong track on my boat that I put on a year and a half ago).

Also, I have been in to all the local lofts I mentioned (except doyle) to check out their stuff. Admittedly, I have no expertise in this area, but from what I could see the Neil Pryde sails impressed most. In terms of service, although all the local guys seem to know their stuff.

Its sounds like nobody here thinks mail order sails are the way to go, and I am starting to agree, right now I am leaning towards the Cameron sail loft here, but still trying to work up the nerve to pull the trigger and shell out $6700.00 for sails <img src="http://morgan38.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif" alt=":)" border="0">


- Jason
 
Maybe I spent too much money on racing sails, I dunno, but only once did I buy a sail from a loft that wasn't local and I always regretted it. Buy from someone local, get them on the boat to measure and discuss what type of sailig you do, and unless you are really good at reading sails, get them out on your boat after delivery to check the fit of the new sail. This is where you get to learn from the sailmaker himself how to trim the sails to get rid of that weather helm, and how and when to de-power so you don't have to reef so early (and so often).

John
 
Guys, just thought I would let you all know what I decided on, a local loft (Banks) offered to meet the rolly tasker pricing +$400 per sail, since I think their service and expertise will be well worth the extra $1200 for the 3 sail package I placed my order with them.

They mentioned I might want to cut the mainsail with a slightly more shallow draft than usual to make the sail easier to de-power when I need too reduce weather helm. My boat has exceptional weather helm right now (maybe because my sails are very old and blown out), but I think it might also be related to design, I have noticed quite a few other posts in the archives of people complaining about weather helm. On a day with 15kt actual wind I have to reef to the point of losing 1kt - 1.5kts of speed to get a balanced helm. Any thoughts on what can be done with design of new sails to help reduce wheather helm? I also saw some members with 382's have modified their rudders, I was consider doing the same with mine and/or increasing the size of the skeg, I would think that anything that moves the center of lateral resistance of the boat aft would help with weather helm and stabilize the steering. Has anyone on the board enlarged their skeg to help wheather helm upwind and also maybe improve tracking downwind? Is it even possible to add on to a skeg, or would it screw up the dynamics of water passing over the rudder?
 
Jason,
I have mentioned this many times before. The 382 has no weather helm. The original instruction book says so. The hull was tank tested and is free of weather helm. If your boat has weather helm it is most likely from the old mainsail, or it was put there by the previous owner who might have installed heavy enough items to change the trim of the boat.
May I suggest giving Ted Brewer a call.
I would also suggest having your main cut normal, with an added cunningham a few inches above the tack. Then all you would have to do to flatten the main is drop it a few inches and hook on the cunningham. That would take out the extra belly and flatten the main.
Larry
 
Jason
all weather helm doesn't always come form the main, with a large overlaping genoa (155) on our Newport 28, I was amazed how much lighter the helm became when we upgraded the headsail. Now on of the first things I do when becoming over powered is to pull on some backstay and harden up the genoa halyard.

Have you done all the normal adjustments to the main to pull the draft forward and flatten the sail?
 
I agree with Larry. If you are over-powered, the boat will heel, try to round up, and you will loose speed. To correct, reduce sail, either by reefing the main or changing or making the headsail smaller. Your reefing set-up and procedure is critical.
Jim
 
First, let me say I was not making a negative comment about the 382, I love sailing my boat and I have to say its really a lot more fun that the my last boat (outisland 33), its like riding a chubby pony (OI 33) vs. a race horse (382). But maybe I have a lot to learn about sail trim for performance sailing ...

&gt;&gt; Have you done all the normal adjustments to the main to pull the draft forward and flatten the sail?

I do try and flatten the main, I usually make sure the outhaul car is hauled tight and put on as much main halyard with the winch as I can. Then I vang the boom pretty tight (actaully use the vang more than the mainsheet to shape the sail). As it picks up a bit more I leave the mainsheet and vang hauled tight and I ease the traveler until the main is just on the edge of luffing. If it picks up any more I start to reef (have to reef at 12-13 kts true to sail close hauled and balance the boat). I have not tried putting on more genoa halyard, I will give that a shot. maybe I also have the genoa sheet cars mis-adjusted, not sure what the procedure is for positioning those, I usually just eyeball the trim of the genoa and hope to see both the leech and foot under roughly equal tension.



&gt;&gt; Your reefing set-up and procedure is critical.

I have jiffy reefing for the main (2 reef lines for the clews run through the boom and reef hooks at gooseneck) and a 125% R.F. genoa. With the last boat (Outisland 33) I would always take 4 very tight turns on the furling genoa first to reduce sail, with my 382 I absolutely have to reef the main first. In fact I have actually sailed close hauled in galveston bay with 16-17 kts true and the 2nd reef in the main and full 125% genoa and had the boat balanced! This seems a bit odd to me (like the center of effort of the sail plan is too far aft) but maybe only because I am comparing it with my last boat ...

&gt;&gt; The hull was tank tested and is free of weather helm.

Not quite sure what you mean by that, dont most sailing hulls have natural weather helm which is counter balanced by the 'lead' of the center of effort of the sail plan ahead of the center of lateral resistance of the hull ...

&gt;&gt; the previous owner who might have installed heavy enough items to change the trim of the boat.

That is a very interesting comment, because I think the previous owner intalled extra water tankage and I wonder if it could have significantly altered the trim of the boat?? I have no idea how to check for that, the waterline looks more or less OK, maybe the stern sits back down just slightly lower than the bow ... I have 3 water tanks (1 under v-berth, 1 under each settee) with 3 seperate fill caps on deck, does that sound like the stock tankage? or was one or more of those tanks added by another owner?
 
Try emptying the tanks, bow tank first, and see how it sails. If your headsail was smaller, say 90 or 100%, you might not have to reef as soon.
 
Jason,
Frankley, and directly to the point, I think your main is shot. It reminds me of the main that came with my 382 when I first bought her. Every year the weather helm just kept getting worse. I kept on figuring out what tricks I could do to pull the center of effort forward and I managed to get a few years out of the sail. Weather helm puts stress on all the working parts of your boat, mast, boom, standing rigging, rudder, and so on. When I purchased a new main it was like a different boat. All the weather helm disappeared. When I say no weather helm I don't mean it literary. Some weather helm is disarable. We have about 4 degrees going to windward and about 10, 12 degrees on a beam reach in 12 to 15 knts of wind. We do not have to reef the main until about 18+ apparent. The reason that I say your main is shot, or more accurately, the pocket is to far aft to be in accord with the center of lateral resistance. You're doing the right things but your not getting the right results. The suggestion about emptying the forward water tank is good. Try that. The forward water tank was not standard. The weight of all that water could be affecting the trim. But, I think it's new main time for you.
Larry
 
Weather helm can be a complex subject to understand and adjust. First, you must have a proper boat. I don't believe any of us on this board has a problem here.

There are two possible problem areas that can impact the way a boat sails and are easy to correct however.

When we read about center of effort of sails and keel there is usually a sketch presented which portends to explain the effect in terms of the area of the sail(s) and keel. It provides some clarification of the concept but is grossly inaccurate. The center of effort of a proper lifting body, (sails and keel), is about one third of the way aft of the leading edge but varies with the angle of attack, shape of the sail, and velocity of the slipstream.

In addition, there is seldom a mention of the lateral displacement of the keel and sails in plan view. When the boat is working and has some heel, the center of effort of the sails is always to leeward and the keel is always to windward. If you push a shopping cart with your right hand only, it will turn to port.

With the above in mind I offer 2 suggestions to be considered to correct excessive helm.

First, if the sail's shape is not proper consider having it recut, especially if it is too full forward. This is inexpensive and easy for the sail maker to do. It consists of 'hanging' the sail horizontally in the loft so that its shape can be observed using gravity instead of wind to fill the sail. The sail maker then manually pulls at the luff to determine the extent of cut required to reshape the sail. With a rope luff, a pleat is then made to return the sail to proper shape. With a modern ribbon luff, stitches are removed, the correction is made, and then restiched. This can make a big difference in performance at very nominal cost. It's almost as good as a new sail.

Second, except when beating, the sail should set at about 30 degrees to the apparent wind and the heel should be about 20 degrees or less. When beating, the main needs to be flatter than the jib since it's apparent wind is different. I see many boats with the sails hauled in too tight which induces excessive heel and helm. A rule of thumb is that the jib should be trimmed at 10 degrees to the centerline and the main at 5 degrees when beating.

I know I'm preaching to the choir but thought I might help someone.

Bill Buebel, S/V Shadow, 381
 
We bought a new full batten main and 145% RF genoa with all the bells and whistles from Mack Sails and are very pleased with the price, service, and performance. The two sails were $5000 delivered

Dale Hedtke
S/V Ranger
 
I'm looking for a good used main sail for a 1979 Morgan 382.
Anyone out there have one for sale?

How far off from the original specs for luff, foot, leech, and weight can you deviate?

Thanks,
Duane Thompson
 
I would not attempt to find a "good used main" but rather just spend the money for a new one! Shop around and find a good deal, they are out there! There are many hungry sail makers looking for work.

A new sail will make your boat go faster and look good at the same time.

Jim
 
Duane, a used sail might look good because the fabric is strong and the stitching is still tight. However, the draft in the sail most probably has been stretched aft of the center of effort. This will create weather helm. The weather helm will cause tension and wear on other parts of your boat, such as boom, goosneck, steering cables and blocks, quadrant, etc.
In my opinion it is penny wise and dollar foolish. I agree with Jim, shop around and buy a new main.
Larry
 
I bought a used main for our 382 from a consignment shop in California. I was in the area on business and went by to see what they had. I inspected the sail, verified that the measurements were right and took it home on the plane with the understanding that after having it inspected by my local loft and test fit, I could return it if I paid shipping.
I got a good deal and a good sail. It of course is buyer beware.
I agree with Jim and Larry that buying used can be false economy. In our case, Paragon is on an inland lake at our house while we continue with upgrades and we decide where to put her on the coast. The sail that came with the boat when we bought her was in poor condition. We wanted a lighter-weight main for lake sailing with good shape for the interim. Once we move to the ocean and do more extensive cruising, we will purchase a heavier-weight cruising-oriented sail.
Budget, intended use, location, future plans may influence your decisions.
-Alan
 
Duane; I agree buy new. For price try National Sail Supply in Florida, a guy by the name of Dirk Sharland runs it. They sell sails made by Rolly Tasker(New Zealander) who makes them in Thailand
 
Duane, I bought a new main from Lee Sails they are made in China. The price was great $1100. compared to $2500. to $3500. from the names we all know. The quality was the best I have ever seen in my 50 some odd years of sailing. It is a cruising main, standard dacron. However I bought it when the U.S. dollar was worth the paper it's printed on. I suspect that the price difference today might not be worth not buying local. Service is a factor, don't under rate it.
Larry
 
lets see how long your chinese sail lasts.
quality my ###. in 50 years of sailing you should know better! you get what you pay for.
I go with USA!
when i am offshore and the ##### hits the fan i want real quality.

rich
 
The material is good! Sometimes the stitching breaks! But that happens with American made also. Lee Sails stands by their sails, but get as with all, get it in writing.
Jim
 
Rich, you may have had a bad experience. I had a very good experience. I bought this sail in 1990. Twenty years later It is still a great sail, as I said the best I have ever seen. Yes, it suprised me. I expected that I might have to replace it sooner than a big name USA sailmakers sail. But it turned out to be superior, much to my surprise.
Larry
 
Larry,
no, I have not had a bad experience because i buy American. I have watched others have real bad experiences. I dont know what kind of sailing you do but if it works for you best of luck and good sailing
regards rich
 
Just my two cents, but I feel compelled to post it. I felt betrayed by the auto industry claiming a superior product when it seemed pretty obvious they were heavily engaged with the "planned obsolescence" ideal for years. They knew they would make less money by selling a product that could last 200k miles plus. The foreign cars were doing 200k miles plus and the US car makers kept on promising and not putting it out there. It had nothing to do with the quality job the workers did, it had to do with the choice of materials etc. So buy American to keep the work here took on a negative connotation for me.

But when you talk about buying a hand made product from local businesses vs having foreign labor do the same I have to say we should do what we can to keep our money here. The local sailmakers do quality work that will stand up for years. You may pay a little more but then the guys that make it aren't slave labor.

If you really can't afford the nominal difference I can't blame you. Times are tough, but if you can try and keep our neighbors in business. (And no I'm not a sail maker <img src="http://morgan38.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif" alt=":)" border="0"> )
 
thank you Larry, point made!quality counts!You know it was the unions and the bean counters who compromised the quality of the U.S. automakers.The little guys in this country know Quality makes or breaks you.I wonder what kind of taxs and benefits the chinese pay to there workers..zippp.
I deal with there junk everyday in the industrial machinery business.there lack of quality and safety scares me and I cant believe we import this crap.when you are offshore and your stiching lets go I hope Lee sails answers the phone to tell you what to do.
rich
 
I have two sails made in Tiwan. They are excellent.

They are laser cut,triple stiched, and made of US material.

They cost about $1500 each.One is a 150% geney, the other is my main.

Any sail maker can supply them and mak adjustments if necessary.

Two suppliers I know of are Bacon Sails and Atlantic Sail Traders

Bill Buebel, M381, Shadow
 
I wonder, if our 30+ yr old Morgans were made in Taiwan would we even have a discussion board.I doubt it.

rich
 
There are many good cruising Taiwanese boats out on the sea. They are very comfortable in a seaway but can be slow. Slow is not always bad however.

I have seen some American made sails that are poorly made and last only 3 to 5 years before coming apart, so you get what you pay for and it pays to shop around and ask fellow sailors in your marina for advice.

Jim
 
I do not believe that quality is restricted solely to American products. I've learned the hard way that assuming "if it's American, it's well built" may have been correct in my granddad's era, but not in mine. That's not to say everything made here is junk - far from it.

Likewise, it's also wrong to assume everything coming out of Asia is junk.

Caveat Emptor, always!
 
Just in case my point was lost when this degraded to a competitive comparison between the quality of foreign and domestic made sails. My intent was not to shed light on poor standards of quality from foreign lofts. It's like salt in a wound to watch every last scrap of production in the US move to countries abroad. There they can maintain slave labor certainly long enough for us to destroy our economy. I would recommend buying locally when possible. Obviously if you can't find decent quality locally then shame on us and go ahead and buy from foreign suppliers. But when we have the quality locally I recommend keeping our dollars here. You won't save our economy. But maybe it will feel better knowing that you're not making the problem worse by saving a few dollars.

I'm a network engineer with no close friends in the sail making industry. I do, however, see outsourcing on a daily basis and understand the situation we have put ourselves in all too well.
 
Hi All,
Current quotes for 382 main:
8oz,tipple stitched,2 reefs,2x2 battens,
cunningham,
Rolly Tasker-$1650+$45shipping
North Sails Annapolis - $3,330-20% staring July 1 = $2,660+tax
Haarstick WNY - $3,072+shipping.
Other option I am considering - re cut old.
The reason for the new main is excessive helm: have 2001 laminate 135%.
at 18-22 apparent going to wind with 1 reef SOG 6.5Kn(clean bottom)have 1/4 turn of helm on the wheel-this is about 8.5 deg on the rudder assuming 35deg full rudder, way to much, and I should be going faster. Main is back winding.
Any thoughts appreciated,
Tom.
 
Tom,
SOG is speed over ground. If you had a 2 knt. current against you you were doing 8.5 knts. through the water. If the current was with you, you were only doing 4.5 knts. through the water.
Did you also adjust the traveler to spill some wind off the back of the main?
In 18 to 22 knts of wind there is a lot of sail trim tweeking that can be done to ease weather helm. It's hard to give you a conclusive answer to your question.
Larry
 
Hi Larry,
I am not looking for a conclusive answer, each rig-sail is somewhat different, trying to find out what else I can do before going to a new main expanse.
This is on Chesapeake Bay, currents are under 1Kn in the open. I have the genoa cars set aft for twist in the upper section of the sail, traveler is 1/2 way down, main is back winding. Foot, luff tight, leach is tight,(could ease main sheet for twist-more back winding).
My wheel is locked at 1/4 turn and boat takes care of herself. My speed over water is 7Kn. I am going to try to reef geny to 110% before I reef the main (have no foam luff, so it will not be most efficient), this is what I did on all the other boats before 382, 135% to 110%, then reef the main, then 80%,have not reefed main to reef#2 yet, for that 30Kn+ of wind, this is rare event on the bay.
Tom
 
Why not reduce the headsail? In my opinion, you could run a 110 or 90 and the boat would perform much better. You might not even need a reef.
Jim
 
Hi Jim,
This is exactly what I will do, reduce head sail to 110% and leave the main alone. See what happens. The reason I was reluctant to reef geny is because there is no foam luff. This is bad for the sail and sail shape.
The general question is what do you usually do on 382 when the wind pipes up? Head sail first or mainsail first? Seams to me, reading through the post, that many of you advocate to reef main first, my experience says reef the geny first.
Tom
 
You have the right idea, playing around with the main vs. genny to see what works best. But keep in mind that the Brewer Morgans seem to like headsail. Try not to favor what you did on previous boats, but do take it into consideration. I have found that my boat, a 382 seems to favor a bit more headsail area then previous boats that I owned. That doesn't mean that I carry a full 150 or 135% headsail in 25 knts. Of course I reduce its sail area. But the boat seems to dig in and push through a rough sea when I adjust the headsail area just right. If I favor the main in the same sea condition the boat seems to go over the waves as opposed to through them.
Find out what works best for you.
Larry
 
Thanks for the advice.
I usually reef around 15kn true. Will keep experimenting until I find acceptable compromise.
Tom
 
Having a sailmaker come on your boat, install and set up your sails and rig is worth quite a bit. Problem? You have someone to talk you thru it. Full batten main all day long.

I'm not a big fan of rolling my 135 to a smaller size. The sail draft stays too large when what I really want a blade.
Usually too much trouble at that point to change down to the smaller jib due to conditions.
Therefore depowering, then reducing the main area is my best tactic to keep weather helm at bay. Weather helm comes from the mainsail overpowering the jib, keel and rudder doesn't it?
Flatten the main (outhaul & halyard tighter) more mainsheet, then drop the traveler, then reef is my progression. I really need a solent stay to hank on a blade or storm jib after I reef.
I really like my garhauer traveler (383) as it added much better control for my main depowering strategies. My 2 cents.
 
Having a sailmaker come on your boat, install and set up your sails and rig is worth quite a bit. Problem? You have someone to talk you thru it. Full batten main all day long.

I'm not a big fan of rolling my 135 to a smaller size. The sail draft stays too large when what I really want a blade.
Usually too much trouble at that point to change down to the smaller jib due to conditions.
Therefore depowering, then reducing the main area is my best tactic to keep weather helm at bay. Weather helm comes from the mainsail overpowering the jib, keel and rudder doesn't it?
Flatten the main (outhaul & halyard tighter) more mainsheet, then drop the traveler, then reef is my progression. I really need a solent stay to hank on a blade or storm jib after I reef.
I really like my garhauer traveler (383) as it added much better control for my main depowering strategies. My 2 cents.
Dave
 
In my opinion, a 135 is to big of a headsail in heavier air. You end up being uncomfortable and fighting the helm. My 2 sense.
Jim
 
Just a question?
How does a headsail increase weather helm?
In general doesn't too big of a headsail increase lee helm?


17137.png

wether helm
 
the center of effort moves aft of the fixed center of lateral resistance and increases weather helm
 
That's my thought. So how can having a larger headsail, say a 150% genoa, move the center of effort aft of the CLR?
Is it the part of the sail that is extending beyond the Mast and CLR that is adding to the weather helm by being aft of the CLR?
I always thought by reducing the power on the main, it effectively moved the COE forward of the CLR etc. thereby increasing pressure foreward and creating "leeward" pressure. This is something we did on Lasers.
Of course everything happens instantly!
 
Hi All,
I would like the discussion continue around
sail trim-helm, derived from your particular on the water experience rather then going to the theory. It will be very useful for new owners, so that they do not have to reinvent the wheel.
For the theory I recommend reading CH.Marchaj: Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing.
Tom
 
According to Olin Stevens, weather helm is a result of healing combined with the forward pull of the sails. This pull is located at the Center of Effort which is somewhere well above the deck of the boat. For a descriptive example, let me propose two extreme cases.



Example one (this example is similar to the one used by Olin):

Imagine a boat that is at 90 degrees of heel but the sails are still pulling forward due to the force of the wind. The pull from the sails would cause the boat to spin like a top.

Example two (this example is one of mine.):

Now let's consider a boat with 0 degrees of heel but the sails are developing an enormous forward pull. They would tend to pull the boat forward but also would cause the boat to rotate (spin) the bow downward and the stern upward until the bow buried itself into the water, causing the boat to pitch pole.

We operate our boats well between these to scenarios. As your boat heals, the center of force begins to result in a rotational force on the boat (weather helm) as well as pulling it forward. As heal increases, a larger percentage of this force acts to rotate the boat as in example one and lesser percentage of this force acts to pull the boat forward. You correct this rotational force with the rudder.



The sail with the largest amount of area contributes that largest amount of force. For our M38, the headsail has the largest area.

Jay
 
In most real sailing cases weather helm is created by the mainsail not the genoa. A lot of people look at he cloth and stitching on their main, or a used one that they are considering buying and find that it looks good and has at least a few good years left in it. That part is true. But, what has not been considered is the stretch of the cloth over the years of sailing has moved the pocket of the main further aft causing the center of effort to be out of alignment with the center of lateral resistence. Of course you can play with it in various ways and try to get some more time out of the sail, but the handwriting is on the wall (mainsail replacement).
Larry
 
My understanding as well.
The main is the primary culprit for weather helm (aside from other things not mentioned here but the main is the main thing..ha.ha).
Too much main up in a blow and you get weather helm. I have found like many others on this forum that any thing over 12-14knts and certainly 18-20 knots does induces some weather helm, otherwise the boat balances beautifully.
I don't believe the headsail causes weather helm (the tendency for the boat to point up to wind, as opposed to "leehelm", the tendency to fall off the wind, just in case there is any question)
That said I agree with Jim that a 135 or larger does not induce weather helm but it is possible to over power the boat with a sail of that size in strong wind.
Perhaps the larger portion of the sail that extends beyond the Mast could induce some. I think that is the question. It would be nice to get a definitive answer.
 
Weather helm is the tendency of sailing vessels to turn towards the source of wind, creating an unbalanced helm that requires pulling the tiller to windward (i.e. 'to weather') in order to counteract the effect. Weather helm is the opposite of lee helm.

When a vessel is close hauled and heeling, the lee side of the hull is more under water than the weather side. The resulting shape of the submerged part of the hull in this condition usually creates a force (a turning moment) that pushes the bow to weather so that it is necessary to pull the tiller to weather to equilibrate this force. Since a weather helm requires pulling the rudder through the water at an angle to the intended course, it produces drag and retards the boat's progress through the water. In the book "Sailing Illustrated", Patrick M. Royce defines weather helm as simply a "heeling sailboat wanting to come head to wind."[1] The principle is the same whether the vessel is steered by tiller or wheel; turning the wheel leeward gives the same rudder effect as pulling a tiller windward.While it is true that an increased angle of heel generally increases weather helm, it is misleading to identify heel as the cause of weather helm. The fundamental cause of "helm", be it weather or lee, is the relationship of the center of pressure of the sail plan to the center of lateral resistance of the hull. If the center of pressure is astern of the center of lateral resistance, a weather helm, the tendency of the vessel to want to turn into the wind, or to weather-vane, will result. A slight amount of weather helm is thought by many skippers to be a desirable situation, both from the standpoint of the "feel" of the helm, and the tendency of the boat to head slightly to windward in stronger gusts, to some extent self-feathering the sails. It also provides a form of dead man's switch'the boat stops safely in irons if the helm is released for a length of time.
If the situation is reversed, with the center of pressure forward of the center of resistance of the hull, a "lee" helm will result, which is generally considered undesirable, if not dangerous. Too much of either helm is not good, since it forces the helmsman to hold the rudder deflected to counter it, thus inducing extra drag beyond what a vessel with neutral or minimal helm would experience.
To be fair, if a ship was initially well-balanced in respect to helm, it could be said that heeling might "cause" a weather helm, in the sense that the heel could create one that did not exist before, but this obscures the fact that the root cause of the phenomenon is the relationship between the center of the force exerted by the sail plan, and the center of the resistance to that force by the hull, and not the angle of heel of the hull.
 
How amazing is it that such a simple concept could have such far reaching explanations? All this science and a 5 year old can sail <img src="http://morgan38.org/discus/clipart/happy.gif" alt=":)" border="0">

Good luck looking for that definitive answer. My wager is that the boat can still be balanced with a "blown out" main. If you want the boat to sail more efficiently, get a nice new main. If you are happy with the performance as is, save your money. Though this would be different if you were going to be cruising long distances where you might want to have the security of the new main before setting out.
 
For those of you who are new to the board, Lenny Reich was the person who began this website. Lenny was a professor in the engineering dept at Bowdoin College. In the mid 1990s, he and I were trying to answer some questions for the M38 members about the true draft of the M38, weather helm and construction details. Some of you may remember the Fatal Flaw discussions. I proposed an answer to Lenny concerning weather helm that was quite similar to John Wild's. During this time and by pure coincidence, Lenny was having lunch with Olin Stevens' niece and as luck would have it, she had brought her uncle along with her. So Lenny posed my solution to him. Olin pointed out that the problem with my solution was that I was using two dimensional analysis for a three dimensional problem. He offered his solution which I shared with you earlier in this thread. After thinking about it, I began logging the conditions when I experienced weather helm. The only condition that I consistently observed while logging weather helm was the boat was heeling to some degree. I will share with you the conclusions of my observations. These are true regardless of the combination of sails or the sail's physical condition. They were made over the last 15 years with:

a baggy 150% genoa with the main sail furled,
a baggy 135% genoa with the main sail furled,
a new 130% genoa with the main sail furled,
the full main sail with the head sail furled.
and all combinations with these sails with the main sail hoisted.

Up to about 8 or 9 degrees of heel the helm is neutral,

Between 10 and 15 degrees of heel, Njord needs one spoke of weather helm to hold course,

Between 15 and 20 degrees it about 2 spokes of weather helm to hold course,

Over 20 and its about a one half turn (or more) to hold course,

At 30 degrees and above I stop looking at the inclinometer and begin concentrating on regaining control.

The one exception was with the mainsail. I was caught in a sqawl before I could furl the main and I estimate the wind was blowing at about 45 knots.

Obviously, if a sail is baggy, it will take less wind to heel a boat. So the baggy sails created more heal and more weather helm in lower wind velocities.

If you go to the 384 Photo Section of the web site and click on Njord, you will see her in 35 to 40 knots of true wind in route to Martha's Vineyard. She has a double reef in the main and a 95% headsail. It's actually a used headsail for a Hunter 35. There is less than one spoke of weather helm. Most of the time the helm was almost neutral. However, when one of the larger swells (6 - 9 feet) would come by and roll Njord a bit, I would need to put the helm over about one or two spokes until she came back up to about 10 degrees (or less) of heel.

The up shot of this is, I confirmed Olin's point. However, I invite you to make your own observations and come to your own conclusions. If you do not have an inclinometer onboard, you can use the fact that when the angled part of the cockpit sole is level, you are at about 20 degrees heel. The base of Njords lifelines stanchions go in the water at what I estimate is about 35 degrees.


Happy Sailing -- Jay
 
As I recall from memory, the Mogan manuel states that the sailing lines for our hull (tank tested) are between 10 to 15 degrees. Going to windward you should have about 4 degrees of weather helm. On a beam reach there should be no more than 10 degrees of weather helm. One spoke is about 4 to 5 degrees of weather helm and two spokes about 10 to 15 degrees of helm. So what Jay says makes sense. And I believe we all know that we have to be somewhat flexable because actual sailing conditions are never exact. We are not sailing in a tank with controlled wind and waves.
To much weather helm causes stress on the steering wires, blocks, and quadrant. Also on sheet blocks and rigging wires, as well as the hull itself, including interior bulkheads. Not replacing a mainsail that you can no longer make suitable adjustments to eliminate weather helm can be penny wise and dollar foolish if you consider the cost of wear and tear on everything else. Everything on a boat needs to work in harmoney with each other.
Larry
 
I am looking to purchase a new head sail Genoa 135-140. Any suggestions for cruising coastal Atlantic to the Keys once and Lake sailing the rest
Dacron vs tri cut laminates etc.
I have read alot but wondered if anyone has practical experience
 
John,

The Morgan 384 is my third boat (all used of course), and all three came with about 140% genoas. Off the wind they were great, but on other points of sail I often sailed with the them half rolled up.

When I bought the Morgan it also included a 100% working jib brand new still in the bag. The owner thought it was a spare mainsail! Naturally I put it on just to see what would happen performance wise. I never took it off, and the old 140 is still in the attic, high and dry.

The Morgan sails so well in light air, compared to previous experience, I just do not want to bother with a 140 again. I do not have a wind speed indicator, but I have made headway on a reach (2.5 knots) when I could not feel the wind on my face at all.

If I have time and money, I may add an inner stay for something even smaller. Just my 2 cents, but I am done with big headsails. Also, I would stick with Dacron. It's simple and durable if well made and maintained.
 
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