• Welcome to this website/forum for people interested in the Morgan 38 Sailboat. Many of our members are 'owners' of Morgan 38s, but you don't need to be an owner to Register/Join.

New Rudder

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
As part of my major refurbishing project on Adavida, I bought a new rudder from Foss Foam. It is a 383 design, but should fit. Jim Cleary did the same and he had no problems. I was a little concerned that Foss used only one or two layers of cloth on the edges, so I asked them to put extra fiberglass on the edges after the rudder came out of the mold. The rudder is beautiful: symmetrical, well shaped, with 5200 to seal around the shaft. But it doesn't fit. The leading, rounded edge hits the starboard back side of the skeg.when the rudder is turned to starboard. It looks as if my skeg is not the same on each side or the hole for the rudder post was not lined up properly with the skeg. And a closer inspection of the old rudder seems to reveal that its leading edge was reduced in size--it has a flat spot on the starboard leading edge. Well, what to do? I don't want to shave the rudder, because I don't want to compromise its strength. The plan is to shave off the trailing edge of the skeg and reglass the area. I believe the skeg is filled with polyester resin/putty which should have (but who knows?) glass fibers in it. I know it sounds very solid. Just thought I would pass on my experience.
 
As part of my major refurbishing project on Adavida, I bought a new rudder from Foss Foam. It is a 383 design, but should fit. Jim Cleary did the same and he had no problems. I was a little concerned that Foss used only one or two layers of cloth on the edges, so I asked them to put extra fiberglass on the edges after the rudder came out of the mold. The rudder is beautiful: symmetrical, well shaped, with 5200 to seal around the shaft. But it doesn't fit. The leading, rounded edge hits the starboard back side of the skeg.when the rudder is turned to starboard. It looks as if my skeg is not the same on each side or the hole for the rudder post was not lined up properly with the skeg. And a closer inspection of the old rudder seems to reveal that its leading edge was reduced in size--it has a flat spot on the starboard leading edge. Well, what to do? I don't want to shave the rudder, because I don't want to compromise its strength. The plan is to shave off the trailing edge of the skeg and reglass the area. I believe the skeg is filled with polyester resin/putty which should have (but who knows?) glass fibers in it. I know it sounds very solid. Just thought I would pass on my experience.
Terry,
I’m sorry to hear it wasn’t a simple swap. The best laid plans of mice and men, right?? Its always a little frustrating when responsibly planned, carefully executed maintenance projects cause hastily planned reluctantly executed ones.

But it sounds like you’ve got a good handle on it. I’d do the same thing; shave down and rebuild the trailing edge of the skeg as opposed to the rudder. 6 tubes of West Six10 epoxy and a generous amount of that thick mat fiberglass would probably do the trick. In that area, you could probably get away with just Bondo alone frankly, but...yeah the other way is better. I’d love to see some photos of what you find in the skeg, and of the process in general.

Best of luck!
 
Terry and Travis
Terry,
I’m sorry to hear it wasn’t a simple swap. The best laid plans of mice and men, right?? Its always a little frustrating when responsibly planned, carefully executed maintenance projects cause hastily planned reluctantly executed ones.

But it sounds like you’ve got a good handle on it. I’d do the same thing; shave down and rebuild the trailing edge of the skeg as opposed to the rudder. 6 tubes of West Six10 epoxy and a generous amount of that thick mat fiberglass would probably do the trick. In that area, you could probably get away with just Bondo alone frankly, but...yeah the other way is better. I’d love to see some photos of what you find in the skeg, and of the process in general.

Best of luck!

I also bought a rudder for my 384 from Foss. I thought you might be interested in my experience as well as your own.
My old rudder was waterlogged and seemed to drain out after drilling drainholes at the bottom. After a lightening hit, the rudder had several chunks of fiberglass blown off, so I figured it was time to replace.
It is close enough to take a drive to Foss and see their operation. Almost all of their molds were lying outside on the grass and the 384 mold looked pretty beat up, but serviceable.
When I picked up the new rudder, I was impressed at how well it looked - nicely faired and with a good 5200 seal on the shaft. They said that it was good that I brought the old one back when I did. The internal anti-rotation plate was a sheet of 3/8" carbon steel, and had been stitch welded to the shaft with, I think, 6 beads, each about 1-1/2" long. All but one bead were corroded thru and failure was imminent. They replaced the old plate with four pairs of 1/8 x 1" stainless strips, each pair spread apart and welded to the port and starboard sides of the stock at one end and the aft end welded together, forming a long triangle. The strip triangles were placed about 8" apart along the stock.
When I first tried to test fit the rudder, I discovered that the stock was offset to one side about 1/4". Took it back to Foss and they fixed it, but don't know how it was done. Looked great, and it now fit, except it rubbed on the hull at the top where the trailing edge curves aft of the stuffing box on both sides. At least, it was symmetrical! Had to grind off some meat from the hull there, and it just clears now.
Like yours my skeg was not symmetrical either, and rubbed on several areas. After starting the grinding job, I found that the skeg had about a quart of water inside, . Also, the inside of the skeg was partially hollow, not nearly filled with the resin/micro-balloon mixture shown on the hull laminating plan. There was also a crack in the hull seam area just below the cutless bearing housing, so might have been the culprit in the leak act, or at least contributed to it. Additionally, found that the gudgeon bolt holes were oversized and off center, angled to keep the rudder straight. The holes were filled with 5200. All of this had to be realigned, re-faired, bolt holes glassed in again, sealed and epoxy coated. You might not need to do that much, and I hope that you don't. Took several weeks to fix.
 
Where was ypur skeg hollow? Up top, next to hull? My gudgeon holes need work, too. We will fill them with epoxy and redrill them. I will check the shaft offset. That would explain a lot. Because on one side there is a lot of room and on the other it is tight. I had not measured that and now will. But I think the fix will still have to be to the skeg, because otherwise the whole rudder would have to be rebuilt. Could not shave down one side without compromising strength and adding to the other side doesn't help my problem. Thanks for the info.
 
Wow! After reading these reports I am more then happy that my replacement of my 382 rudder to a 384 rudder went perfect. That was after a couple of shipping errors committed by Foss Foam. But the rudder fit and works fine. Only thing is, I see or feel no difference in the performance of the new rudder over the old. Of course the reason for the change was not performance but my suspicion that the inner welds were failing. Something I did find when examining the skeg was that the area under the shaft log inside the boat just below where the stuffing box is, was not glassed in properly and there was water (from the bilge) and much construction debris (screws, huts, bits of stuff) in the void. The area had to be cleaned out, ground out and reglassed, which was not an easy task.

Jim
 
Jim, was the void visible? From inside the boat? How did you discover it? I have my shaft out and should check the area for problems while I can. If you tapped on the outside, did it sound hollow? The space under the stuffing box isn't large.
 
Terry,
The skeg up top didn't appear to be hollow as I was only able to probe maybe 3/4" into the crack with a straight pick. Dished it out and patched.
I avoided drilling the gudgeon holes, because historically I haven't been able to get the entrance to line up with the the correct exit on anything thicker than a nickel!
I used a length of Delrin AF from McMaster to "mold" new holes. I think the OD is 5/16", The holes were already oversize, so I cleaned them out good, and threaded the Delrin rods on one end to fit into the gudgeon and keep any resin out. I left the rods long so I could turn them out later.
Home Depot had some steel electrical conduit that fit the gudgeon bearing almost perfectly. I wrapped the stuffing box area as well as the gudgeon bearing area with 2" clear packaging or weather barrier tape to get a snug fit.
Then I hogged out the gudgeon pocket on the skeg a bit oversize to allow for proper alignment during potting. At this point it was important to measure the rudder dimensions in the region of the gudgeon and carve out a block from a length of swimming pool spaghetti tube that would slip over the fake rudder shaft conduit to mimic the rudder leading edge. This stuff almost needed no work since the foam tube wall thickness was almost the same as the rudder cross section. Just needed to cut through one section longitudinally and sand off some foam from the outside. I left an extra 1/4" foam on the forward outer surface for gap allowance (for leading edge to skeg clearance). Then the conduit could be centered on the lower skeg by eyeballing it from a distance aft, while the foam tube would hold everything in the correct fore-aft position. The fake rudder shaft was then snugged into position with the rudder shaft packing, and adjusted vertically to align the gudgeon into its pocket. Had to make some final grinding adjustments to attain a roughly even potting thickness. Also added enough tape to the bearing area of the shaft to hold the gudgeon in place while being clamped together during potting later.
I package taped the gudgeon halves independently, except for the mating surfaces, so they wouldn't bond to the epoxy, and used a mold release on the internal areas. Don't forget the bolt holes and the fake shaft!
With everything clamped/taped into position except the gudgeon, I mixed up a batch of epoxy filled with West 406 to peanut butter state, and I pasted up the potting area, with completely filled bolt holes, trying to keep the fake shaft fairly clean. The delrin rods were screwed into the threaded gudgeon half. With both halves in hand the rodded half was started in first, and when the rod ends started showing up on the other side (go slowly, it will be glove time), the unthreaded half was guided over the rods. I squished the gudgeon halves together a little at a time from both sides until they could be clamped over the shaft. Need to keep air out of the holes. The excess potting can then be scraped up, and readied for demolding. I let mine cure overnight and had only a little stubborn behavior by the threaded rods to deal with. Needed to twist them out of course, and afterwards I noticed that there were some scratches on one of the rods, trying to lock into the resin. The other rod was smooth and easily came out. The gudgeon halves were no problem with a little sharpened putty knife action. Must keep resin off of the exposed gudgeon surfaces, or will need to be sanded off to demold.
The result was a glove fit of the gudgeon to the skeg, with no angular misalignment to the shaft.
I bedded them with a thin coat of silicone only along the bolts and was able to pull the gudgeon off about a year later without much hassle.
 
Another point I just remembered.
It's important to check the gudgeon dimension's for undercut potential at the molding process. The gudgeon halves must come out laterally from the skeg, so make sure that any taper in the parts appears with the outermost dimension being larger than the corresponding innermost dimension. Otherwise you will have a heck of a time getting things apart later. The tape can help with low areas, but not tapers.
 
Terry
I was working under the shaft behind the engine trying to clean the bilge area below it. The surfaces were rough and wouldn't give up the imbedded dirt. I decided to grind down the area and reglass the surface to keep it clean. When I reached down under the shaft log the area was soft and my probe went in deep. I ended up using any kind of tool to get in there. The hole I found extended down into the skeg area before I had to stop. From the excavated area there was all sorts of construction debris, screws, nuts, small slivers of wood, all sorts of junk. That must have been from the work done in the factory as the boat was assembled. I then filled the void I had created and glassed the area smooth. It wasn't easy to get down in there to work and my finished product isn't as good as I desired, but it's much better then it was.

Jim
 
I want to make clear that the problem I am having is not with the Foss Foam rudder. Further inspection confirms that the skeg is the issue-- it may not be exactly inline with the rest of the hull or the curves enveloping the front of the rudder are not symmetrical . The Foss rudder seems well constructed and is symmetrical.
 
Back
Top