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Lazarette Propane Locker

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Thought I should start a new thread--moving from the discussion of the lazarette hatch. Here are photos of how I use the lazarette for a propane locker. One show the view to the port, one looking down into the locker, showing two of the three tank platforms, and a picture of the two (new) dual-stage regulators hung off the inside wall of the transom. To seal the locker, I glassed the aft bulkhead to the underside of the aft deck. That left the silly gaps out at the hull, under the cap rail. For want of a better solution, the former owner and I used expanding spray in foam. By the way, the inside of the locker is dark colored because before I moved the exhaust outlet it was, as you all know, right at the stern , where the locker bottom drain is. The exhaust would discharge into the water, which would bubble up through the drain, and fill the locker with exhaust fumes. It is too hard to get in there to clean, so I live with the residue.
 

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mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
Thanks for the photos, Terry, that helps a lot.
Where did you get that plate that the cylinders nestle into? Did you have those made?
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
It is just plywood, glassed over for protection, and then screwed and glassed to the bulkheads. Created by previous owner, who failed to protect the plywood. When it rotted, I redid it.
 

jimcleary

James M. Cleary
We installed our propane stove in 1996. The tank and the regulator system went in the lazzerette. The hatch had to be notched to get the tank to fit. The regulator, gauge and bar-b-que tee are mounted just under the fwd lip of the hatch. A rubber sheet (photo 4) covers the assembly and keeps it all pretty dry from any water coming in from the hatch above. It must be working because we're still on the original regulator.

Jim
 

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Warren Holybee

Active Member
I am willing to bet that regulators from 15 years ago were better built than they are now. This is a "trident marine regulator and solenoid" after only 1 year. Despite it being marketed as a marine regulator and valve, it clearly is mostly mild steel. The aluminum regulator has the same markings as a cheap grill from home depot. The valve is stuck, and the regulator audibly leaks from the vent (can hear a hiss)


120096875_1627371410774763_4355532946404910776_n.jpg

I changed to a different brand valve which will hopefully last longer (it is sealed) and mounted it all in a watertight box. (sealed with sikaflex)

120228383_1627371440774760_6312760278114323502_n.jpg120182708_1627371477441423_6987125315766274229_n.jpg
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Well, that is discouraging. And I was just trying to be safety conscious and update everything. You ought to let Practical Sailor know of the Trident failure. They have a gear graveyard section occasionally to call out failed products. I have used cc'd emails to them when complaining about bad or failed products and it regularly elicits better responses from the vendors.
 
That sealed box looks really great Warren. I too have a Trident regulator that is well on its way to looking like yours above. The combination of wet, salty and enclosed in that stern locker is a tough challenge even for well made metal gear (which the Trident regulators clearly are not).
 

Fortin024

Member
Hey folks, Just following here as I'm currently changing the old kerosene stove to a propane one. I'm running my hose from the stove through the port lazarette however, when doing so, I went between the hull and the freezer and noticed a lot of insulation which made fishing the hose quite challenging. Out of curiosity, anyone knows what kind of insulation that is? It was very prickly a felt like little pieces of glass when falling apart. Is this where you guys ran your hose through as well ?

Cheers,
Mike
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
Hi Mike - regarding the original insulation on the ice box, the general thinking is Morgan used the polyester resin they used for building the hulls and injected a bunch of air to make sort of a foam that hardened. That is consistent with what we found when we tore out the icebox & re-insulated. As you said, I'd describe it as tiny pieces of glass.

Our hose was already run for the propane, and I'm not exactly sure how it is routed. I remember when we tore out all the icebox, there was no propane hose, so the original must take some other route.

Take Care & enjoy with the projects!
-Mark
 
Hi Mike,

I routed my propane hose the same way you did, and encountered that same stuff. Somewhere down the line when I have time for larger interior projects I'd like to follow Mark's lead and pull out / reinsulate the icebox. Whatever that stuff is it does not seem to be the best insulator after 40 years (and a hose path dug through, natch). I'd also like to follow others' lead and improve the ice box hatch cover.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
My stove propane hose goes outboard thru the pan locker and then up behind the cabinets (there is room back there). then aft to the lazarette. Nice run, but you have to remove the cabinet (all one piece) to do it. Possible, but you have to remove the teak trim on the cabinet, the teak trim at the bottom of the cabin sides, and probably the fiddles from the galley. The cabinet slides in and out, and is screwed to the aft bulkhead and the settee area bulkhead with one big lag screw in each place. While you are doing it, ,check the diesel fill hose, which gets old and starts to weep.
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
Ha! The timing is funny (not!). I installed a Trident rig just like Warren’s about 3 years ago. We are out on a multi-day trip & the valve stopped working. It’ll turn on for about 30 seconds then pops off.

The thing looks like it’s been out to sea for 40 years, but I just installed the piece of junk. And they have all the threads designed so I cannot just rig the propane flow without the switch. Blah!

Alas, we shall sally forth and continue our trip, forced to use the outside grill with propane canisters. This is indeed a horrible first world problem.

I think I’ll make a sealed enclosure like Warren did.

Warren- what kind of solenoid valve did you get? Is that a FireBoy? Does it seem like a better build than the Trident?
 
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terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
They obviously need to be aluminum. My 30 year old units (which I now regret replacing) never rusted or corroded and were working just fine when took them off. And I didn't even keep them as spares! Damn. I can be so stupid sometimes.
 

Warren Holybee

Active Member
Ha! The timing is funny (not!). I installed a Trident rig just like Warren’s about 3 years ago. We are out on a multi-day trip & the valve stopped working. It’ll turn on for about 30 seconds then pops off.

The thing looks like it’s been out to sea for 40 years, but I just installed the piece of junk. And they have all the threads designed so I cannot just rig the propane flow without the switch. Blah!

Alas, we shall sally forth and continue our trip, forced to use the outside grill with propane canisters. This is indeed a horrible first world problem.

I think I’ll make a sealed enclosure like Warren did.

Warren- what kind of solenoid valve did you get? Is that a FireBoy? Does it seem like a better build than the Trident?

You can disassemble the trident solenoid valve, remove the plunger, and make it permanently open. I used it like that for a few months before I was able to replace it.

This is the valve I replaced it with. Time will tell if it is any better. But at least it is sealed so shouldn't rust.

3/8" Electric Solenoid Valve 12-VDC, VITON Gasket, Air, Gas, Fuel Normally Closed: Industrial Solenoid Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Here is what I heard back from PS:

Thanks Terence,

We haven’t done a head to head test, but we have noticed a spike in regulator issues. I’ll check out the thread.

Yes, we still do gear graveyard. Anyone can send products to address below.

Darrell Nicholson

Editor
"In civilizations without boats, dreams dry up . . . "
Practical Sailor

1600 Bayshore Rd.

Nokomis, FL 34275

practicalsailor@belvoir.com
www.practical-sailor.com
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
Hey Warren - I was reading the Q&As for the valve you linked to on Amazon. Of course those are the general public, so best taken with a healthy shot of skepticism. But several people mention the valve getting "very hot" when left open for an "extended period" like 30 minutes or more. One person said it melted their valve, could have started a fire, etc. Another said it should only be used in a "well ventilated" area.

That made me wonder about the amperage it draws, and a little worried about your sealed box.

I ordered the valve before I read the Q&As, and it's sitting on my dining room table. It seems very well built and about 10 times more stout than the Trident POS I hope to replace it with. I think I might hook it up on the test bench & see what the amperage draw is, and how hot it gets. Amazon makes it so easy to return in case anything seems not right.
 

Warren Holybee

Active Member
Hey Warren - I was reading the Q&As for the valve you linked to on Amazon. Of course those are the general public, so best taken with a healthy shot of skepticism. But several people mention the valve getting "very hot" when left open for an "extended period" like 30 minutes or more. One person said it melted their valve, could have started a fire, etc. Another said it should only be used in a "well ventilated" area.

That made me wonder about the amperage it draws, and a little worried about your sealed box.

I ordered the valve before I read the Q&As, and it's sitting on my dining room table. It seems very well built and about 10 times more stout than the Trident POS I hope to replace it with. I think I might hook it up on the test bench & see what the amperage draw is, and how hot it gets. Amazon makes it so easy to return in case anything seems not right.
I don't think it gets any hotter than the trident did, which was too hot to touch after it had been left on for a while. The trident also draws a decent amount of current. I have left the new one on overnight by mistake and not had problems, though I have considered putting a timer by the stove for it. It is rated for 8hrs continuous, which should be longer than I will every cook for. I did check the amperage when I first hooked it up, and though I don't' recall what it was, it didn't strike me as being very much. I could tell you tonight when I get back to the boat.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
This is a concern I have never heard of. I have a propane heater and nit often runs for several hours when the weather is nasty. One of solenoids is made by Fireboy Xintex and the other by AFC. And I also sometimes cook for more than 30 minutes. That limit is wholly in adequate. And what if you just forget to turn it off? It melts?
 

Warren Holybee

Active Member
This is a concern I have never heard of. I have a propane heater and nit often runs for several hours when the weather is nasty. One of solenoids is made by Fireboy Xintex and the other by AFC. And I also sometimes cook for more than 30 minutes. That limit is wholly in adequate. And what if you just forget to turn it off? It melts?
It is a concern. I am sure that the Trident, Fireboy, and AFC all have a similar duty cycle rating, even if it is not published on the web page. I think that part of the design is that they will be cooled by the gas flow, which will be cold having just evaporated from the tank. With good flow they can probably all go indefinitely. But if you leave the valve on with no flow, the risk is that the coils will burn out. It will simply stop working. This is probably the ultimate failure on the trident I posted above. While is was very rusted, the plunger still moved freely and the failure was electrical- I took it apart and removed the plunger so I could continue to eat until I made landfall.

I don't think 8 hours is unreasonable for most installations, but I would hate for it to fail if I leave it on after cooking dinner. If you are running a propane heater, that could be more than 8 hours but would have good gas flow.

Looking at the Fireboy and AFC pictures, neither appear to be well built or in anyway marinized either. They seem to be off the shelf low quality parts. Even a notation to confirm the part number on the solenoid your forklift uses. I would REALLY like to fine a regulator and valve that are designed for the environment they are installed in.
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
The solenoid valve that Warren (and I) got for sure seems more beefy & better build quality than the Trident.

Some data points on the US Solid valve: After 6 hours on my test bench, its highest temperature was 196 deg F, and it drew (a mostly constant) 2.6 amps. That's more than I would have guessed.

I had never really thought about heat or amperage of this valve, nor had I ever touched the Trident valve when in use. However, thinking about it, it makes sense. It's probably spring loaded so that even with higher pressure gasses it can reliably close. So it takes some energy to keep it open.

I think I'll build a little box like Warrens, to keep moisture from dripping or splashing onto the solenoid & regulator valve. But I think I'll put some little vents on the sides of the bottom and top.

My wife is super good about turning the switch off when she is done cooking. I'm more of a space case and have left it on overnight on multiple occasions. I like the idea of a timer that auto shuts off after X minutes.

Since I'm going to build my little box out of Starboard, I did my testing with it sitting on Starboard to see if it melted, etc. Below is an exciting "action shot". The black housing on the valve got the hottest and it was no problem for the Starboard.

1621369300530.png
 
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terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
thanks for the science experiment. I think I will check the temperature of mine now. I have to say, my AFC and Xintex lasted 10 years in the locker, and were still functioning when I replaced them. But the aluminum on the AFC corroded some.
 
This is all pretty interesting to me, I will need to deal with this situation soon. I had never given much thought to the solenoid valves and their issues.
Mitchell
 

mpearson

Mark Pearson
Staff member
On a previous boat, I've been on extended sailing trips when the propane system failed and if you don't plan for that contingency it can be a cuisine "fail". Picture cold/rainy Alaska weather, sailing by glaciers and eating uncooked/hard spaghetti noodles dunked in cold spaghetti sauce. Didn't taste very good and it was kinda rough on the teeth. If you are hungry enough, you will eat it, and make a mental note to avoid that situation in the future.

So I'm going to carry an extra solenoid & regulator valve. I also got a Fireboy/Xintex solenoid & regulator and I must say they look better than the Trident did.

I put the Fireboy/Xintex solenoid valve on my test bench for 8 hours in the open position and it only got to about 150 deg F. It's smaller than the US Solid valve, and not as beefy of construction, but it looks to me like it will last. You can also order a protective plastic cover for the regulator valve (which I did).

Side note: The US Solid is 1/2" IPT, so be sure to get adapters if you need to plumb into 3/8".

1621553449652.png
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
I reached out to Xintex. Their SV-1 solenoid valve, which I use on the high pressure side of the regulator, draws 0.6 amps. That may explain the lower temperature. The valve you guys have may be beefier, but I have had good luck with the Xintex. John at AAC is not a fan, however, of the Fireboy control system, the one, I think, that shuts down the solenoid when there is a gas leak detected.
 

Duane

New Member
My stove propane hose goes outboard thru the pan locker and then up behind the cabinets (there is room back there). then aft to the lazarette. Nice run, but you have to remove the cabinet (all one piece) to do it. Possible, but you have to remove the teak trim on the cabinet, the teak trim at the bottom of the cabin sides, and probably the fiddles from the galley. The cabinet slides in and out, and is screwed to the aft bulkhead and the settee area bulkhead with one big lag screw in each place. While you are doing it, ,check the diesel fill hose, which gets old and starts to weep.
Hi Terry, Do you have any photos? I have been procrastinating installing my propane tank and lines.
 

terry_thatcher

Terence Thatcher
Photos of locker at top of this thread. I have no photos of the galley cabinet pulled out. Be aware that the aft most bulkhead that creates the locker I use for propane is not properly sealed bt Morgan. I had my aft bulkhead glassed to the deck (aft cockpit coaming). But that left gaps near the hull. Those I have filled with spray-in foam.
 

Lantzalot

Member
I am willing to bet that regulators from 15 years ago were better built than they are now. This is a "trident marine regulator and solenoid" after only 1 year. Despite it being marketed as a marine regulator and valve, it clearly is mostly mild steel. The aluminum regulator has the same markings as a cheap grill from home depot. The valve is stuck, and the regulator audibly leaks from the vent (can hear a hiss)


View attachment 8486

I changed to a different brand valve which will hopefully last longer (it is sealed) and mounted it all in a watertight box. (sealed with sikaflex)

View attachment 8487View attachment 8488
That’looks just like the one I have!
 

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