Icebox rebuild

[jimcleary]

John
When we decided to go from ice to refrigeration, I talked to Nigel Calder at the Annapolis boat show. I asked him which was the best system to install. His answer was the Frigaboat keel cooler system. But, he said, don't put in any refrigerator until you rebuild and insulate the boats icebox. He felt that no builder makes a efficiently insulated box. Taking his advice we decided to start from scratch.
Photo #3- The formica was chipped away to reveal the screws securing the top. The original door was kept and was reinsulated.
Photo #4- Screws found and removed.
Photo #5- A saber saw was used to cut the top so that the upper cabinet unit didn't have to be removed. The 3/4" plywood top was saved to be reused.
Photo #7- The inner fiberglass liner was cut with a sawzall in the corners and the pieces saved. What was left of the original insulation, which was badly deteriorated, was removed.
Photo #8- The insulation on the bottom of the box was against the hull and did not fare well.
Photo #9- Down to plywood and hull all cleaned up.
Photo #10- Added tabbing to secure the bulkheads, fore & aft, to the hull.
Photo #11- The interior painted with Bilgecoat paint.

 

[jimcleary]

Photo #12- Cleats installed to frame out the new bottom. This insures air space between the box and the hull.
Photo #14- Rest of the bottom cleats.
Photo #15- All painted, ready for new bottom. The hose is for the cockpit bilge pump.
Photo #16- The plywood bottom installed. The hole is for the drain hose.
Photo #18- The box is lined with Mylar paper sheets as a vapor barrier. These are available from a blueprint supply store. A spray glue is used to adhere the paper.
Photo #19- The box is then lined with aluminum foil, shiney side out, again with spray glue. The foil reflects away radiant heat, especially from the engine, from the box.
Photo #21- The first layer of the 2" blue board insulation is installed. Any small cracks are filled with the squirt in stuff.
Photo #24- The second layer of 2" foam is applied for a total of 4" of insulation. the seams are sealed with caulking.

 

[jimcleary]

Photo #25- The pieces of the original interior fiberglass panels are cut and fitted into place. Because the original bottom was curved, the new bottom pieces had to be manufactured. The wood bracing holds the pieces in place until the corners could be filleted in with a thick fiberglass.
Photo # 27- The fore and aft pieces are held in place. When the corners are all filleted and faired, the inside is done and ready for a final coat of paint.
Photo #29- The Frigaboat evaporator is installed.
Photo #30- The original plywood top is reinstalled and new formica applied. The original door is put back. The mouldings are replaced.
Photo #31- The Frigaboat system with a keel cooler is installed in the cockpit locker on the forward bulkhead. A 1/4" plexiglass shield is installed to prevent anything from damaging the unit.

I hope some of this will help someone with a similar project. If there are any questions, just ask.

 

[mpearson]

Jim: thanks very much for the awesome photos. I just started this same project & the photos are super helpful. It's why I love this website.

I don't remember if you've mentioned it elsewhere, but how many man hours would you guess the whole thing took?

Interesting about Nigel's statement on Frigaboat. I recently saw Cool Blue at the Seattle Boat Show & it seems compelling. Simpler, no thru hull, and a 5 year warranty. Makes me curious to hear NC's opinion on Cool Blue. Too many capital projects on the boat this year, so refrigeration unit won't be till next year. Icebox rebuild going on now, so THANKS!!

Mark

 

[rolf]

What great pictures and descriptions!! It does make the whole thing less daunting to see pictures with descriptions of the process. Did you run the drain hose to a pump, or to the bilge? Hmmm. Another thing for the my long long list. Or, I just haven't owned the boat long enough

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
The best I can do on the man hours is to say that the project started in Oct. when the boat came out of the water and was complete in May when it went back in the water. I long ago stopped keeping track of the money and time spent on Dana. If I had those numbers, Bonnie would have me take up badmitten.
When I spoke to NC about the system, he didn't hesitate for a second to recommend Frigaboat. My project was done during the winter of 2008/09 before we made our first journey South. The Frigaboat has worked flawlessly since. The box is so well insulated that our 225watts of solar panels keeps the system running without having to run the engine for amps. The keel cooler removes the need for a pump or a fan to cool the compressor, so no amps are needed there. The system also has a speed controller that lowers the speed of the compressor when the box isn't calling. There isn't a separate freezer section but the inside of the evaporator makes four trays of ice and keeps meat well frozen. The completed box measures out at just about 6 cubic feet. On two 8 month trips South to the Bahamas we never found we needed more space. I don't know of the Cool Blue system but I highly recommend the Frigaboat.

Jim

 

[jimcleary]

Rolf
The drain hose travels under the stove to a pump under the galley sink that discharges into the galley sink. I wouldn't want smelly icebox water in the bilge. The best way to keep a list of boat projects is to only write on the list the projects that you have completed. That way they all get crossed off.

Jim

 

[schlepper]

Jim I thought I had accomplished something ripping out the previous owner's pink foam that they glued to the tub walls and then created a fine roving and resin liner which I guess worked 'okay', but made the icebox so small that the capacity was severely limited. When I tried to mount shelving to it and it was so thin that the screws had nothing to hold to, that was it, it had to come out. I think my little Frigoboat unit might be working double overtime if I were to be in warm weather so I'll probably have to consider doing what you did to something like that. The head holding tank project was a beast so I'm reluctant to take on much sawing, etc. for awhile yet! But thanks for sharing, it's a different way to skin that cat for sure.

 

[dave_a]

Hey Jim Cleary - you can understand how the US Air Force wound up with a $10,000 toilet seat in a B-52, after owning a boat right?

 

[jimcleary]

Dave
Your absolutely right. The costs of owning and maintaining a boat, even on a DIY basis, has skyrocketed. To stay in the game, either racing or cruising, a sailor has to love the lifestyle. Otherwise the expenses couldn't be justified. As I said, I no longer keep track of time and costs. Bonnie almost never asks "how much" any more. But I see the fear in her eyes when she asks, "Do you have any big projects planned for the spring?".

Jim

 

[captpete]

Wow, what an awesome job Jim!

 

[jimcleary]

Thanks Pete!

 

[svpilgrim]

Jim,
Nice work.

Did you modify the original lid or add insulation to it? I am still pondering the best way accomplish this step on my fridge rebuild.

 

[jimcleary]

Thanks Jeff
Originally I was going to completely replace the whole top with the lid. A company called Glacier Bay sells units that could be fitted but they are outrageously expensive. So I decided to remove the plywood top leaving the angled recess for the lid in tact with the formica and foam seal. The lid was turned over and the bottom formica removed. The insulation in both halves was removed and new blue styrofoam was fitted in and the formica replaced. When the box was complete and the top put back, 3/4" blue foam was filled in under the top and around the lid opening and caulked to fill any gaps. That foam, because it is not visible, is not covered by fiberglass. It probably isn't as efficient as a new expensive custom made unit but it seems to be working fine. One thing we like about using the existing lid is that the finished box looks the same as it was originally.

Jim

 

[jnoble]

Inspirational job, Jim. Reinsulating the ice box is something I have considered. Now I may try your rebuild method one of these days. I like how you used the FRP panels from the old box and reuse of the top. Your pictorial is well done too. Thanks for sharing.

John

 

[mpearson]

Actually, my understanding is that Glacier Bay is out of business (or maybe was purchased?), and the continuing company is 'R Parts'.
Last week I bought one of their quite expensive (~$500) hatches. My rationale is that it is still cheaper than the B-52 toilet seat . It has a 6 week lead time, and I'll post some detailed photos of it when I get it.

R Parts Refrigerator Hatches

I'm trying to make everything on Zia look professional and I don't have enough faith in my handiwork when it comes to making a great looking/functioning hatch. I also don't have as much time as I would need to do a proper job. So, my wife is getting a hatch for her birthday!

If anyone missed them, Jeff of SV Pilgrim also has some great photos of his very impressive & professional icebox rebuild. They are on this site and also on his blog:
SV Pilgrims Icebox Rebuild
Fiddle around with the viewer until you see the captions Jeff has created. They are very informative.

Indeed, I don't think boats (in general) can be financially rationalized in most cases. It's more about passion.

A fool and his money can always be separated. Boats just make it easier and quicker.

(hey! I just invented that quote)

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
And a very wise quote it is! Back when this project was in the planning stage (2008), Glacier Bay would make custom hollow FRP panels that were about 5/8" thick and were filled with an inert gas (nitrogen, Argon,...). They claimed the R rating for their panels was equal to 4" of the blue foam insulation. The problem was the panels were so expensive, to do the box it would have been thousands of dollars. I may be a sailor and a fool but that was not the way to part with my money. Once the plan was set and the methods were thought out, the job of rebuilding was not difficult. And the cost of the material, minus the Frigaboat unit, was not bad at all. Timewise, because I had the whole winter to work, it was not a stressful project. I'm not so sure that giving the hatch to your wife for her birthday is a good idea. One Christmas I gave Bonnie foul weather gear and an inflatable PFD. It was almost April before she thawed out over that one. I had to buy a lot of red wine over that winter.

Jim

 

[stnick]

I nwas looking at a You tube video of the NASA areo gel foam cloth . Its comes in 52 like cloth and has amazing R value . Its NASA , your tax money did the research !! seems some cloth some alu vapor barrier in layers take up almost no room but great R value.
Its worth a you tube look !

 

[terry_thatcher]

I was unwilling to do this much work, so I installed RParts vacuum insulation inside the old box, two inches on the bottom and engine bulkhead side and one inch on the sides, box is smaller but much more efficient. Intended to do the lid, but ran out of time. (Rparts are nice folks, but each of my two orders took 4 months to fill.)I installed an ozefridge holding plate system. Working well in the Mexican heat, but like all of these things, it takes D.C. Power. I only have 200 watts of solar and it appears to me that my solar does not quite keep
Up with my at anchor use. When and if I get back home, I will replace the lid with one using vacuum insulation.

 

[mpearson]

Hi Terry - glad to hear from you ... where are you in Mexico? For those that don't know, Terry & his son have sailed his 382 from Portland, OR, down to Mexico.

Jim - a question for you: I've got all my fiddles/trim, and formica peeled off and screws taken out. Was just figuring out how to pry the top off. That'll be next weekend. I noticed in your photo that you didn't pry the top off, and it looks like you cut it along the lines I drew in green below.

Why did you cut those, instead of prying out the top? I realize it's been 8 years so you might not remember.


Thanks!
-Mark

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
You are correct. I cut with a saber saw along three sides of the top. The stove side (fwd) and the engine side (stbd) because I didn't want to disturb the teak veneer on the vertical finished pieces. On the port side because it's so much work to remove the upper cabinet. These cuts don't require great precision because the same top will go back in place. If I remember correctly, I felt inside to find the existing 1x2 cleats and cut alongside them. The aft side came away without a cut. If you look at photo #18 you'll see the new cleats added along the cut edges to secure the top back into position. When the top was replaced, the old contact cement from the formica was removed and a fiberglass filler (like bondo) was use to fair it all for the new formica, that's the blue stuff in photo #29. The old formica on the top of the two lid pieces was also replaced because the color no longer matched the new material. Also in photo #29 you'll see that the old formica was removed up to the edge of the upper cabinet on the port side. So although the top is the existing wood, the formica is all new. I was thinking about using Corian for the top but that would have meant tearing up the sink/pantry countertop so it all matches. Too much work! Good luck with the project. My number is 516-437-6107 if you need more than a bottle of rum for encouragement.

Jim

 

[mpearson]

Great info, thanks Jim.
My fancy hatch I purchased has different dimensions than the existing opening. Larger in one dimension, shorter in the other.
So I think I'll try pulling the top off & replacing in total. If anyone thinks that's a horrific idea, please tell me.

My top has some large screws, which turn but do not come out of the board, and some smaller screws which clearly seem to be holding the counter top down. I've removed the smaller screws.

Does anyone know what the larger screws are for? I've tried prying as I turned them and they still won't come out. I'm thinking there might be a nut down buried below the counter someplace.

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
I was so afraid of damaging the teak, which would have become a nightmare of a job to replace. Be very careful with those edges when you remove the whole top. The fasteners in photo #4 look like machine screws and not wood screws. I can't remember what I did with them. Looking at the problem now I think I would cut the heads off the bolts and push them down into the box. Then when the top comes away and you cut away the interior fiberglass panels, you can find the nuts.

Jim

 

[mpearson]

For the benefit of anyone considering this (icebox re-insulation), it took me about 8 hrs of work to get the top taken off and the fiberglass box and insulation removed. I did use some marine-grade curse words, but it really wasn't that bad. The above photos show progress just after the counter top was removed. The top flange of the fiberglass icebox is exposed.

In answer to my own question above, the 'big' screws are actually bolts with nuts, from the countertop to the underside of the flange at the top of the fiberglass box. See A in photo above.

The 'small' screws were from the countertop to the cabinet. See B in the photo above.

They all needed to be removed but because I couldn't reach the nuts on A, I used my dremel tool with a disc, and cut off the heads per Jim's suggestion above.

There was 2" to 2.5" of insulation in the walls, See C in the photo above. It was a very light, brittle foam, and I agree with the theory that it is just foamy resin created by the resin they were using for fiberglass when they built the boats.

Mine was quite evenly spread throughout with no voids/gaps. This makes me happy that I didn't try the approach of drilling holes in the walls and injecting more foam. I don't think that would have done much in my case.

Below is a picture of the fully stripped out enclosure. There is no tabbing at the bottom, but there is a thick black epoxy-like material which seems to function like tabbing. At first I thought it was mastik/tar like material, but it is very hard and strong. Anyone know what that is?

I had to cut the fiberglass box into a number of pieces to get it out. I was quite impressed with how rugged it was - I honestly think the fiberglass in the icebox was thicker than the fiberglass in the hulls of many production boats today!

Important Tip: I went through several expensive jigsaw blades trying to cut that fiberglass, and they barely worked & were incredibly slow. Jeff Lovett from s/v Pilgrim recommended a Bosch T341HM1. I ordered from Amazon, and it really was miraculous. Cuts thru fiberglass like butter. I would get 2 of these and 2 of Bosch's other blade that is about an inch shorter. Jeff, I owe you a beer or beverage of your choice.

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
You are a brave sole. I wouldn't have had the nerve to go near the teak facings. That black stuff looks like some kind of caulking type stuff. My thought would be to chop it away and do some tabbing of the plywood to the hull. In the top photo, what is that large black tube passing through the box? Could it be the hot air ducting for an Espar heating system? Looks like you are doing well with the project. Enjoy.

Jim

 

[mpearson]

I'm cautiously optimistic about the teak facings. I was very careful & now have them padded/taped up so I don't injure them as I'm thrashing about on this.

Yes, the big black tube is a duct for a Webasto forced air heater I just had professionally installed. They did a very nice job, but (curiously) ran the duct right through the icebox. That tube gets pretty darned hot. I can isolate/insulate it very well now, but they didn't know I was planning on re-doing all the insulation.

That black caulking/epoxy at the bottom is quite strong & tough. Seems to me that it acts like tabbing. Curious why you think I should chop it off and do tabbing?

 

[stnick]

You paid some one to run a heater tube your ice BOX ? I trust you were not present when this was done ?
Look at some areogel to do a pipe wrap R 32 ! ya dont need but 12-15 inches

 

[stnick]

Jim Cleary you are my ice box hero ! Wow you sure did alot of work. And from your statements well worth the effort. Do it once and do it right !

 

[jimcleary]

Lee
Thank you for the kind words. The proof of the efficiency of the box is in the fact that we don't have to run the engine to keep the batteries up while the fridge runs 24/7. My thanks go to Nigel Calder who encouraged me to rebuild the box before buying the fridge system.
Mark
I am a believer in Jeff Lovett's theory that every inch of bulkhead should be properly tabbed to the hull. As long as you have the area exposed, you'll sleep better knowing you did the job right. I'm curious about the black goo. Because you tore out the original ice box, that stuff was put there by the builder. There was none of that on mine, hull #53, when I stripped the area. If the goo was still flexible after all the years, I would think it might be a cushioning between the bulkhead and hull. But since it is rock hard I can't see a purpose for it.
When we investigated installing a heating system for the boat, the hot air systems were not useable because I could find no way to run the 4" duct work from the port cockpit locker to the main cabin. The solution was the Espar Hydronic system which is a hot water system that requires two 3/4" heater hoses from the burner to the radiators and hot water heater. It was fairly easy to run those hoses past the icebox against the hull on the port side. Please post lots of photos as your project progresses.

Jim

 

[terry_thatcher]

My aft bulkhead for the box is tabbed to the hull in the cockpit locker. This is surely a structural bulkhead and should be well tabbed in.
We are near Puerto Vallarta, starting south tomorrow. Depending on weather, we may go to El Salvador, then it will be home by way of Hawaii in spring/summer. The 382 has performed well with a Monitor doing most of the serious steering.

 

[rickdowe2]

Someday I will do it the upgrade. When you tab, do you use epoxy or resin? I know epoxy is stronger for both gripping and tearing. Resin I have plenty of that. What has everyone been using? I have a friend that used to work building boats and he referred to that compound as fluxputty. A black hard fibrous compound for bonding the integrated fiberglass unit to the hull. Also used in the bottom of the keel for thickness.
Rick

 

[jimcleary]

Rick
I am a fan of epoxy resin. In my workshop is a gallon of West System epoxy that I use for many repairs. But it is very expensive. For a job like tabbing an area of bulkhead to the hull where the project demands a large volume of resin, I feel it's best to go with polyester resin. The thing to remember is that the boat was built with polyester resin so the extra strength of epoxy would be overkill. The important thing when adding additional tabbing is to throughly clean (grind away) any dirt, paint, gelcoat down to clean fiberglass so the new resin will adhere well.

Jim

 

[rolf]

The best way to keep a list of boat projects is to only write on the list the projects that you have completed. That way they all get crossed off.

Oh my gosh! Brilliant, I have started already and I'm halfway through!! LOL!

 

[yurek]

Jim:
After your set of pictures I decided to start rebuilding mine icebox.
It is already empty and tabbed, I cut top just behind fiberglass walls, I will try to put cut out piece in the place where was before and put new formaica over old one.
I will have similar setup: Adler Barbour Cold machine with DB 50 Compressor. Wals 4" foam. Bottom max, I can fit 4-6" . Top 2".
I'm thinking of not installing drain. -Big loos of "cold".
I will use "box " only as refrigerator.
If I put drain I will use 1/4 or 3/8 tubing (to small?) with plug in refrigerator and drain valve in engine room. so I can fill empty milk Jug or connect small inline pump.
What you think ?.
Yurek




.

 

[mpearson]

Hi Yurek-
I'm about 1/2 way done too. Taking lots of pictures & logging how much time it takes. I'll make a separate post when done to aid anyone else.

I did a different approach that I'm very happy with so far: I took the plywood countertop off. Except about 3" from the shelving on the port side. Didn't want to tear shelving out, so I cut the counter there.

This let me remove the entire old fiberglass box.

Now that insulation is installed, I'm framing in a plywood box, which I'm popping out to use as the mold for the new fiberglass box, which I'm laying up with gel coat, cloth, etc.

This is appealing to me because I'm making a flange in the top edge of the box that can be bolted to the plywood countertop. This is the same design as the original box & I like the additional load bearing & stability of being attached to the counter with the box.

This is not a criticism of anyone else's approach. I'd gladly take their work over the original insulation.

I'm also not putting in a drain.

I'm putting on 1/2" corian for surface & I sprung for one of the RParts hatches. So all my material costs are going to be about 1 Boat Buck ($1k). I've got 20 hrs in so far, and I'd guess another 20-40 hrs to finish. Not bad winter weekend work.

Cheers

 

[jimcleary]

Yurek
Your project sounds like it is coming along fine. If you put a drain in and create a trap in the drain hose, by running it low then coming back up high, you will trap water in the hose which will prevent the cold air in the box from leaking out the drain. Not having a drain means having to lean into the box to wipe out any accumulated water. On a long trip that would mean emptying the box every now and then for cleaning. The drain hose on Dana is 1/2" which runs to a pump under the galley sink which discharges into the sink via a separate spigot.

Mark
I like your idea of molding a fiberglass "can" for the inner liner. It certainly is a professional way to do the job. If you use the Corian for the ice box top, are you planning on also matching it on the sink side of the galley? That project scared me into replacing the formica on the ice box.

Jim

 

[captpete]

My 78 382 came with this ice box drain pump setup in the cockpit locker. Pump is accessible through trash bin door in galley. I believe it drains to manifold to torpedo tube.. I figured it to be original equipment, but maybe not.

 

[mpearson]

Jim, no, I also don't want to tackle the other counter tops. Looks like a lot of work. The corian is pretty close in color to the white Formica. My wife is picky, & she gave the approval because she loves all the other aspects of corian.

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
We have Corian in our kitchen at home and Bonnie loves it. It was our first choice for the galley redo. But looking at the scope of the total project dissuaded us. Did you isolate the insulation of the new box from the hull? I think that because of the radical changes in temperature and humidity at the hull the builder made a mistake pouring insulation directly on the hull.

jim

 

[mpearson]

Yes, I framed in a plywood floor that has an air gap with the hull. Sealed all the wood & did thick plastic vapor barrier before insulation. Trying to be a pro, and avoid all the shoddy DIY projects you see on older boats (and homes!).

 

[jimcleary]

Mark
I think you are going to be amazed as to how efficient your box is going to be. I can hear your engine giving a big sigh of relief all the way across the Country.

Jim

 

[1lostbouy]

My 78 382 came with this ice box drain pump setup in the cockpit locker. Pump is accessible through trash bin door in galley. I believe it drains to manifold to torpedo tube.. I figured it to be original equipment, but maybe not.

It must be original because by 78 382 has the same set up

 

[rolf]

Same as my 383 but the pump is in the engine room on the port bulkhead, high.

 

[stnick]

I used 1/2 inch PVC tubing for the drain , you will not be sorry the smaller size will clog with ice and small bits of paper my mistake/
I used a long drill and right in that corner drilled at a 45 degree angle till i came out in the engine room.
I coated the pvc with west system 6x10 stopped up the pvc ends with wet paper towels . let it all dry 2 days. pulled the paper stoppers out attached the drain valve and done. !