• Welcome to this website/forum for people interested in the Morgan 38 Sailboat. Many of our members are 'owners' of Morgan 38s, but you don't need to be an owner to Register/Join.

382 Hull #22 Pre-Survey Inspection

geardunkin

New Member
Hello all!

I'm going to look at a 1978 382, hull #22 tomorrow. It's a great lakes boat, on the hard, but I have no idea how long it's been in fresh water. The current owner has only had her for three years. I want to give the boat a thorough check before shelling out the cash for a survey. What are some specific aspects of this boat that I should be looking for? Here's what I've got so far:

  • Bulkhead Tabbing - How do I check to see if this was corrected? Is there direct access to that area of the boat or am I going to have to make a fairly uneducated guess?
  • Core material - Does anyone know what hull core material I should expect in this boat? Did boats this early have Airex?
  • Water intrusion at the chainplates - Any specific warning signs I should be looking for? I do have an el-cheapo moisture meter, a tiny ball peen hammer and I'm not afraid to use them.
  • General water intrusion and delamination - Where are the hot spots for rot on this boat?
  • Electrical - I've been warned that it is a bit of a rats nest, but I don't have specifics. The instruments are of a newer vintage, so I'm a bit concerned that they were installed by someone without experience. Should I consider shoddy electrical work to be a dealbreaker?
  • Mast step - Anything specific to look for here? Warning signs that the mast is sinking?
  • Engine - It's the original 3QM30H. Any fairly obvious red flags to look for here?
What else am I missing? Even if this doesn't work out, I see it as an opportunity to take a deep dive into a great boat. Cheers and thanks for your help.

Brett
 
HI Brett - that's exciting, and I hope your inspection goes well! Your questions seem thorough and I'm guessing you've probably had other boats. It sounds like if she passes your muster, you will get an inspector? I guess that's my main advice: I'd get a good, experienced and recommended inspector. And don't be too freaked out when you get the list at the end.

My advice to anyone buying a M38: It's a 40+ year old boat that costs 10 times less than very nice new boats of comparable length. There will be problems and if problems cause the buyer excessive stress (mental or financial), they shouldn't buy it! They should buy a nice tidy condo someplace ;).

We have enjoyed improving our boat Zia (1983 384). There have been times of aggravation & foul attitude, but we would do it all over again. We love working on boats, though, and we are constantly striving to not take shortcuts and to do the most professional work possible.

You've probably discovered that there is a bunch of info on all your questions on this forum using the Search function. Sadly, there are rarely simple Yes/No answers.

I wouldn't necessarily let shoddy electric work be a deal breaker. There was some horrific stuff done by previous owners on our boat, but in the end it was fairly easy to clean up. Just took some time & research, and a little money. Like buying a house, sometimes that stuff is good because it scares off more casual buyers and lowers the price.

I think some common places for water intrusion are along the stanchions and jib tracks on the aft portion of the hull. I think it's pretty rare to find 40+ YO boats that don't have some water intrusion.

The Torpedo Tubes cause some people grief and they have replaced them or sealed off the holes. Ours just had tiny leaks at the hull joint that we easily patched with no problem.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.
Cheers,
-Mark
 
Thanks, Mark!

Yes, I will definitely get a full survey. Just trying to find the simple stuff and identify obvious dealbreakers myself. My criteria would be identifying the major work that must be done before sailing her. If it needs a major refit to be made safe and seaworthy, then it is probably not for me. Every boat is a project boat, but I need a boat that I can enjoy while working on it.

I hadn't heard of the Torpedo Tubes before, but the search function cleared it up. Looks like it has caused some hull delamination in the past. Thanks again!
 
Last edited:
Look carefully for any cracking at the keel to hull area. If the boat has been run aground, the leading edge will be forced down and the trailing edge forced up.
 
Look carefully for any cracking at the keel to hull area. If the boat has been run aground, the leading edge will be forced down and the trailing edge forced up.
Thanks for the tip! I do know that these boats should not be blocked up on the aft third of the keel. Are there any obvious signs of damage from this?
 
You can see bulkhead tabbing simply by looking at them in many areas unless the owners covered them up somehow, e.g., under the chart table, in the hanging lockers, in the dry locker and chain locker (You may have to pull back some vinyl covering in the hanging lockers.) Look in the head to make sure the chainplates attach to bulkheads well tabbed to the hull. That was one of the issues on the first boats' recall, I think. Check to see if the forward bulkhead has been tabbed to the deck; same with aft most bulkhead. If not, plan to do it.
If the recall work was done, as surely it was, there may be a 1' square cutout on the sole at the forward end of the starboard settee and also look under the head counter, as I mentioned above.
My mast step and others has sunk 1/2" when the rig is tight. But it stopped decades ago. If the rig is loose because the boat is stored, you may not see that. You can check by seeing if the mast bucket glass has moved down from the rest of the sole.
If they have not replaced the fuel fill hose, check for weeping diesel.
You or your surveyor will want to check (by tapping and moisture meter) all areas of the deck for delam. Also, the entire hull. (A good surveyor will do all this.) This is especially important if the owner(s) added fittings, but I discovered one place where Morgan nicked the coring with a screw holding a deck fill.
Check if there is evidence of rust stains on rudder (better to have the boat in water and then hauled, to see any water leaking out). But frankly, Morgan made their own rudders in the early years and I have never heard of failures. I replaced mine at 40 years, but my inspection (by drilling holes) showed no problems. Just surface rust on the plates. In retrospect, rudder replacement was unnecessary, but I was overly cautious, on the one hand, and overly profligate with my wife's money, on the other.
Check around the inside of the torpedo tube for leaks around the tube. I had some slight leaks, which I solved with 5200 for as few years and then finally, again the money, by replacing the tube with a glassed in tube of fiberglass.
If you don't know the age of the standing rigging, or if it is old, you may have to budget replacement.
Morgan's chainplate design was good and the bolts thru the deck are through solid laminate so no core delam risk. But if you don't know the age of the bolts on the shroud or back stay chainplates you may want to replace them, especially if there is evidence of leakage around them inside. You can see the inner chainplates by removing small bits of cabinetry (light boxes, covering wood). Don't let a surveyor refuse to remove some screws and minor cabinetry. I checked all my bolts (except the forestay, which seemed impossible to remove and never "sit" in standing water anyway) when the boat was decades old. I found one bad one on a shroud out of 30 I removed, inspected, and replaced. (Once they were out, why not?) I should had inspected earlier; it is not a big job. Time consuming, but not difficult.
If you see significant signs of leakage around the chainplates below, of course, you will want to remove the upper plates and rebed. A mast was lost on one Morgan when old bolts gave way, so this is cheap insurance. Only one of my chainplates has ever leaked in 25 years of ownership and it was only around a bolt. Like I said, it was a clever design.
Check the site about the Yanmar. Some of us have replaced the Perkins, but the Yanmars seem pretty bullet proof. Japanese quality from the 1970s. Nothing seems to beat it.

I will stop here. Unfortunately, I could probably meander on for pages. Like I said, watch the surveyor, if you can, and don't be afraid to open things up to look. Oh, also, I agree with Mark's comments. Morgans are good boats, but a 45 year old boat will have issues unless it was very well maintained or upgraded. Many of us, however, have done that and you may find the same with this vessel. Good luck.
 
I assume your question about the tabbing is in regards to the recall on early boats. I can't answer directly because I have a later boat, but my understanding is that there would be access panels cut in the sole to allow access to perform the work.

I believe most, if not all (certainly mine) is as follows. Solid below the waterline. Foam on the sides above the waterline, and plywood on the deck. The plywood is cut into 6x6 squares, such that if water ingress happens, it won't spread from square to square. Areas around the chainplates and other factory through deck fittings are solid. Excepting for some reason the portlights. And of course anything added by previous owners. But there should not be ingress into the deck core from chainplates even if the sealant failed.

The chainplates are covered by trim inside the boat so they are not visible. However, with some hand tools they can be easily accessed, and easily removed and replaced. The design doesn't suffer as badly as chainplates embedded in fiberglass. I expect little if any problems with the chainplates (always check) but the bolts should be replaced.

The bulkhead in the chain locker isn't tabbed to the hull, and that is a place for water intrusion others have had issues with. Also, the foam core around the "torpeedo tube" cockpit drains as been reported to be an issue. Some surveyors do not like the torpeedo tubes as they are PCV (not allowed by abyc to be below the waterline) and are glued to the hull with sealant. The recommendation is to cut them out and replace them with fiberglass tube. That said, I am not aware of any having caused a boat to sink, just the foam core issue in that area.

On a boat this size I would expect that most of the electrical needs to be replaced. So if it had been replaced in a shoddy way, that would not be a dealbreaker, as I would plan to remove it anyway.

I believe the mast step is sinking or has sunk on all Morgan 382s. Mine probably more than most, about a full inch. I recently removed the sole in that area to repair some dryrot. It is a design defect, but I do not believe it is a structural problem. The mast bucket is securely attached to ribs that support the sole. The side of the step is also attached to the side of the hull. However, the bottom is floating above the keel lead, with a foam-like resin filling the void. So, with time, the bucket sinks and takes the sole with it. On my boat, which as I said has more sinking than most, the bucket was still firmly tabbed to the hull, that never broke loose. As much as anything, I think the hull is deforming, the shrouds pulling the outside edges up, and the mast pushing the bucket down.
 
Thanks, Terry and Warren. This is great info. It's really encouraging to see such an active community, too.

The Kretschmer article did refer to a port forward chainplate issue. Now I know what to look for.

The current owner seems pretty comfortable with me poking my head around in every nook and cranny. Another positive sign.

How common and detectable is rot on the bulkheads? This thread showed some pretty disheartening pictures of what is possible, though it did seem repairable.

The boat had a furling main when he purchased the boat. It looks like just a modified headsail furler. He has switched it back to a slab reefed main with battens last year, but does not have a sail cover. So, a stack pack and lazy jacks would be near the top of the to-do list.

Additionally, he removed the CNG stove and has not replaced it with anything. I would probably put in an alcohol stove cooktop and add some shelving below.
 
Brett

Two thoughts. One is the engine. Is it fresh water cooled? It has been in fresh water for the last three years, where was it before that? The Yanmar engine, if well maintained will last a long time. Mine has 6500 hours on it. The second thought concerns the cooking fuel. CNG is great fuel but is very hard to replenish. Alcohol is inefficient, slow cooking, smelly, and dangerous. A proper propane system is safe and a joy to use.

Jim
 
Not sure how much effort or money you would be looking at in upgrades. But if re-doing the electrical, an upgrade to Lithium Iron Phosphate and an induction cooktop is a sweet way to go. I also still have propane, but really enjoy cooking on the portable induction hob.
 
Brett

A third thought. The Morgans electrical 12V system was just adequate for it time in 1978. In terms of todays requirements, it will need major overhaul. The onboard 120V system was originally poorly done and dangerous. That system will need to be brought up to ABYC standards to be useable.

Jim
 
This is putting the cart a bit before the horse, but sailboats are pretty ideal vehicles for daydreaming. :)

The electrical system would probably be the first major upgrade and yes, please to an induction cooktop. However, that involves a fairly hefty inverter and quite a big LiFePo4 battery bank. I think that a non-pressurized Origo 3000 or 4000 would get me through the first season or so and allow me to better assess the needs of the boat. Perhaps bringing the existing system up to par with an eye to future expansion would be the best call.

The factory Yanmar is directly cooled. Checking to see if it is adapted to a closed circuit system is a good call. I don't know the history of the boat, but will hopefully find out more tomorrow. The boat was purchased in Indiana by the current owner, so that suggests a fair history in fresh water.
 
Brett

By directly cooled do you mean NOT fresh water cooled? Will the boat live at a dock with 110V dockside power available?

Jim
 
Well, as a great lakes boat either solution is fresh water cooling. :p However, the factory system in this boat is raw water cooled.

I would have the boat on a mooring, so no regular 110V connection. However, there is shore power at the courtesy dock.
 
For the foreseeable future, yes. However, having such a capable boat would make the St Lawrence awfully tempting... :D
 
Brett, one more item. This will not affect your boat, perhaps, if her mast comes out each year. The aluminum mast step is not all that well thought out. It doesn't drain well, I added a slightly better drain. In addition, if the mast sits down in the bucket for a few years, the corrosion welds the step to the mast. When I bought my vessel in 1997, it had gone across, the Atlantic and back and then lived in the Seattle area. When I went to pull the mast, it ripped the mast step right out of the lead, where it was lag bolted in. The yard repaired that, but no one told me how to prevent it occurring again. I had the step polished up and re-anodized was all. But 24 years later, the same thing happened. (I have had her 26 years. We were able to get the mast out by having the crane take a strain and then raining heavy blows on the lower mast with a bug rubber mallet and having a big guy shack the mast above deck with all his bulk.

When the mast went back in, things had been cleaned up again and all the mating surfaces were slathered with TefGel. In retrospect, I wish I had painted the mast with Duralac, let it dry, and THEN put on the TefGel. Both prevent or retard corrosion.
 
Brett You have asked good questions and gotten a lot of good answers. I restored Non Sea Quitter and then had her surveyed about 7 years ago and again in 2002, all for insurance purposes, with both surveys giving her a pretty good review. An even older survey was similar. Other than the tabbing in the had which has been mentioned--and mine was corrected long before I bought her, I can think of anything else in particular. As for any boat of her age, the bulkheads and tabbing, hull deck joint are always the most important places to look. The bottom line is that overall--and in general terms--we are talking abut an exceptionally well-made boat that is still in demand--even if for major restoration. That is why there are so many active and committed owners on this site. Don't worry too much about engine because it is a sailboat and most diesels last and last and last. Mainly attend to sails and rigging and deck/hull concerns. Feel free to update us and let us know.
 
Well, after spending some time with the boat and owner yesterday, I decided against her. I think it could be a fantastic boat for someone with the time to dedicate to a proper refit. But not so much for a guy with a full time job, house and two young kids. :)

Unfortunately, it was a case study in the perils of deferred maintenance. Every single system had issues; some minor, some major, some unknown. There were signs of shortcuts and half measures throughout the boat.

Additionally, it is fairly clear that the recall work was not done. The port forward chainplate terminated at the deck and did not extend to a bulkhead. I was not able to see any tabbing of the forward bulkhead. Additionally, there were indications of rot on the bulkhead between the head and salon.

It's just too much of a project for me to bring up to my standards given my constraints. But I think she could make a great boat for the right person.
 
Brett

Sounds like a good choice. Even in fresh water, a raw water cooled engine is a question mark. If your search is still continuing, maybe look at Morgan 382, 383, or 384s.

Jim
 
the Morgan 38 series is a great boat and can be found at reasonable prices. My advice is to find one that has had an experienced owner’s Love and money spent to update the vessel. This may mean you have to travel or rely on a friend or trusted broker and inspector to recommend a boat and you may have to extent your budget. You always get what you pay for! Good luck with your search.
 
Quite unusual that the forward chain plate issue and bulkhead were not fixed in the recall. But, there it is; a Morgan failure. I would urge you not to focus only on Morgans. I like my boat and have lavished attention and money on her, but she is not perfect. There are other good used boats out there and with the pandemic easing (except for the 7500 Americans dying each month from the disease, how quickly we forget or ignore) prices may be dropping. Good luck.
 
The search continues! I'm not looking exclusively at Morgan's but both the design and this community make it a very attractive boat. Thank you all for the advice and encouragement.
 
Back
Top