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New Mast

Maurice

Member
Hello,

Our Morgan 384 has suffered a loss of her mast due to Hurricane Dorian. I have a few mast-related questions:

1) Is the mast the same dimensions on all Morgan 38's (38, 382, 383, 384) in terms of height, diameter, thru-deck size, mast step?
2) Where was the Morgan 384 mast was built?
3) Any suggestions of companies that build aluminum masts that would fit?

Thank you for any guidance. There are many decisions ahead but guidance on these questions would be most helpful.

Maurice
 
383s and 384s have taller masts than 382s. Someone with a 384 can probably provide dimensions. 382 masts were built by Kenyon, which is now part of RigRite and I don't know if they still make spars. Everyone says they are terrible to deal with. ZSpars and I think US Spars still exist. A google search should find mast builders. If you are lucky, you will find one close to you. I have to assume shipping a 65 foot mast would be expensive.The extrusion may not be expensive, relatively, but once you start adding upper sheave box, winch pads, spreaders, etc, it gets more expensive. Good luck.
 
Maurice,
I have a couple suggestions.
Rig dimensions can be found here: https://www.mauriprosailing.com/us/category/5-Morgan.html
You might try speaking with Catalina / Morgan factory. While I'm sure they don't have a mast, they're pretty good with owner's groups and spare parts.
Catalina might be able to point you in the right direction with a supplier. They might also be able to provide some old records from Morgan that might help spec out an OEM style mast. Catalina does build boats in FL and they may have some of those legacy records from Morgan.
That said, the old mast is a design spec that is from the 70's. I have to believe there is a modern, lighter, perhaps tapered, bendable spare that might make a better sailboat out of your 384. It might take a marine architect/designer to create a mast spec from what is available today. Good luck.
 
It will take a little time, but I certainly will let you know what I learn. I anticipate learning a lot in the process.
 
Hello,

Our Morgan 384 has suffered a loss of her mast due to Hurricane Dorian. I have a few mast-related questions:

1) Is the mast the same dimensions on all Morgan 38's (38, 382, 383, 384) in terms of height, diameter, thru-deck size, mast step?
2) Where was the Morgan 384 mast was built?
3) Any suggestions of companies that build aluminum masts that would fit?

Thank you for any guidance. There are many decisions ahead but guidance on these questions would be most helpful.

Maurice
Our Morgan 382 also lost her mast during Dorian we are at Marsh Harbour Boat Yard looking for a replacement to There must hundreds of them in Florida boat salvage yards
 
Our masts were not made by Kenyon, but the booms were. The masts were made by what evolved into Johnson Sails, St. Petersburg, Florida. They have continued to change, and are now Island Nautical Maine Center, https://islandnautical.com/. Jack Corey work for Johnson Sails for years after Morgan. I am not sure how much of the original company is still intact. I know of a Morgan 384 in Melbourne, Florida that was dismasted and got a new mast from Johnson Sails some years ago. It was a painted, thinner, and a double spreader rig.

I would also check with Sailing Services in Miami. Owner Brooks Jones has a Charlie Morgan 41. He is one of the largest sailboat riggers in the country, and national distributor from such suppliers as Stayloc. Tell him I sent you.
 
I replaced the mast on my 384 about 5 years ago after original was damaged. Recommend you check out Selden as they built my mast. The mast they built for me looks like it was “off the rack” with an additional few feet riveted on the bottom. Mast fits through existing mast collar on deck even though it has a bit different profile. It has two spreaders and accommodated existing boom. Main sail slides much better with newer style sail track, accommodates all wiring and came with new bottom plate which fit. I am very satisfied with the new mast.
 
Thank you again to all who have provided information to assist with my installing a new mast on our Morgan 384. At last, I have renewed efforts on the project following a two-year hiatus.

I am looking at a mast from US Spars, but I do not have a couple of important measurements. First, the mast height. If anyone happens to have the height of the mast from step to top of mast, I would welcome this measurement. Also if you happen to have the leech length of the mainsail, again I would welcome this measurement. I appreciate the support!

Maurice
 
Maurice, what you are looking for may be on this site. Go out to forums main page. Scroll down to "background" and click.
You see where our webmaster friend Mark Pearson posted a 383 owners manual. Go to page 98 and it has mast dimensions on it.
I tried copying the page but it wouldn't paste.
Good luck,
Dave
 
Maurice, what you are looking for may be on this site. Go out to forums main page. Scroll down to "background" and click.
You see where our webmaster friend Mark Pearson posted a 383 owners manual. Go to page 98 and it has mast dimensions on it.
I tried copying the page but it wouldn't paste.
Good luck,
Dave
Hello Dave,

Thank you for the lead and for the specific directions to the material. A big thanks to Mark Pearson for his posting as well. This will prove very helpful.

Take care,
Maurice
 
Best I could do was deliver it here
Hello Dave,

Thank you for the lead and for the specific directions to the material. A big thanks to Mark Pearson for his posting as well. This will prove very helpful.

Take care,
Maurice

Maurice, when Morgan changed from the 382 to the 383/84 they did a lot of copy & paste of the owner's manual.
Make sure that you check that the dimensions. Ensure that it is not an erroneous copy of the 382 dimensions.
Mauri Pro Sailing (St Pete,FL) had an online rigging dimension for JIPE. Knowing a 382 mast length and adding the additional 383/84 length would get you very close to the dimension you are looking for. If you want exact you'll have to measure a real one.

But...a big but - you will likely be buying a "modern section" mast. Not the old semi indestructable lamp post Morgan used way back when. All New shrouds, spreaders, backstay& furler? Why not talk to a marine architect, have him spec up what you need. Maybe add some performance to the boat (if possible) using the existing chainplates, backstay and forestay points? Obviously that all needs to be thoroughly inspected prior for corrosion/cracks/rot.
Good luck
 

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Thank you so much for the advisement. I especially appreciate the guidance that the owner's manual doesn’t necessarily have exact measurements - an assumption that may have been a costly error.

I anticipate a new mast will not be the old “lamp post”, but rather a lighter version with all new standing rigging. If perchance, anyone knows of an old 383/384 mast (or out-of-service boat), I would welcome finding such a mast.

Thanks again for the ideas and direction.
 
I would love to have a new tapered mast with two sets of spreaders for my 382. Might have to alter the cap shroud chainplate somehow. Just think about the increased righting arm without all that weight up high. But, I also still wish Santa Claus were real. George Dashner: Do you have to alter the chainplates to handle the second set of spreaders or did you just run one cap shroud past both spreaders?
 
Hello Terry,

I am not sure of the chainplate architecture on the 382 vs 384, but I thought it might be of interest that one of my quotes (US Spars) for the 384 shows double spreaders, but the ability to use the existing chainplates. I don't have a drawing, but I had specifically asked the question around using existing chainplates with the double spreader arrangement.

Hope this helps,

Maurice
 
Referencing my previous post of replacing my mast with one manufactured by Selden, I can confirm that original chain plates did not have to be adjusted or moved on my 384.
 
Referencing my previous post of replacing my mast with one manufactured by Selden, I can confirm that original chain plates did not have to be adjusted or moved on my 384.
Sure appreciate your note, George. I am currently reviewing the Selden option and knowing that it fit through the deck and that no adjustments were needed at the chain plates is very helpful. In keeping with your decision, I will be exploring keeping the existing boom.
 
Sorry, my Selden mast replacement was done about 8 years ago so I no longer have the records on hand. Replacement was an insurance job and included a number of other items. I do remember thinking that mast was reasonably priced but then new standing and running rigging, electrical (running lights etc) and cost of professional rigger ran the cost up more.
It also took awhile to find an aluminium mast as many companies had moved on to carbon fibre which was quite pricey.
It is nice to go sailing and not think about rig failure.
 
Hello Terry,

The price range between a mast alone and a mast with all the “fixins” is significant. When I first looked at the price of mast (alone), I thought it was a real deal. However, such items as a mast step, a deck collar, standing rigging, boom, vang, furler, lights, cleats and optional running rigging rapidly move the price upward.

For a bare mast one is looking at as little as $10-$13,000 USD. For a full package, one is looking at $25-$30,000 USD installed. A growing wrinkle is that if one buys only the mast then there is the necessary cost of custom fitting. For example, I would like to use my existing boom, but the cost of ensuring both vang and gooseneck fit properly becomes another cost and consideration.

I hope this is helpful,
Maurice
 
Maurice,

I have a 1983 384 (hull # 35) ready to cruise in New Orleans that I will be putting in the market next month for $45K. It might be an option for you to try to buy a whole boat and sell it by parts. I believe that the Perkins 4108 (200hrs after overall) + equipment and hull might bring a return if you are willing to take the time and manage the work.

Anyway, good luck on your search.

Tony
 
Hello Tony,

Thank you for your offer. Unfortunately, I live a long ways away from my boat and also a long ways away from New Orleans. Owning two boats, both at a great distance, and trying to part one out would prove more than we want to undertake. As well, your boat sounds too nice to be selling for parts.

Wishing you well in your sale next month. It appears you've chosen a good time to be on the market.

Maurice
 
I am continuing the research around purchasing a 384 mast. We have exhausted searching for a used mast so I am looking closely at the Selden mast. I received a drawing with measurements from Selden titled "Morgan 384 Dashner", which are the measurements Selden plans to use for my mast. I assume this was the drawing for George Dashner's new mast. Selden indicates these measurements were drawn from a Selden dealer.

My question in this post relates to overall mast length. Thanks to Dave Ahlers' post, I note that the Morgan manual shows an overall measurement of a minimum of 56' 6 1/4" (pg. 97). The overall length of my former mast measured slightly more at 56' 8 5/16". I also note on the Dashner drawing the overall length is shorter than either of these measurements at 55' 11".

A few questions:
1) Is 9 1/4" (56' 8 5/16" minus 55' 11") enough of a difference to be of concern?
2) Is this much variance typical across 384/383's? (I "think" I measured the old mast accurately a few years ago, but at that time had not foreseen a hurricane removal.)
3) I also welcome George's experience: did you need to make changes on your mainsail to accommodate the new mast? (Also, relatedly, were you happy with staying with your existing boom vs buying a new boom).

I continue to comb the many postings of the Morgan38.org site. Thanks to everyone for sharing such a deep understanding of our boats,
Maurice
 
Hi Maurice,
The mast spec’s you received from Selden are probably the spec’s that were used to construct my mast. I did use the same mainsail that I had on my old mast for the new Selden mast. I did have to have new “cars” attached to the original mainsail so they could ride in the new track on the Selden mast. This turned out to be a good thing because that mainsail is now a lot easier to hoist.
I have no regrets in keeping the original boom, it works well on my new mast and was in good shape and I did not have to change my boom vang etc.
The difference in measurements that you are finding is interesting, I am not sure why this would be, I had a very capable rigger handle those challenges for me so I was not aware of height differences. Maybe Selden can explain the differences?
Hope this helps, feel free to ask additional questions if required.
George
 
A pertinet question is how did the new mast work for the jib. You need to know if the mast is high enough for the jib luff. Can you measure your jib luff? Using the J and the I the sails luff lengh can be calculated. Conversely, Using rhe luff length and the J you can calculate the I. the I plus the distance from the deck to the bottom of mast step should give you the reguired mast height. You might need to take sheer into account. Taller is safer except going under bridges. The mainsails P can be compensated for by a lower boom postion on the mast ie the 382's boom was lower than the 383/384.
 
Thank you so much for your feedback, George, and for your generous offer to answer questions, given your experience. A recent conversation with Selden cleared up a misunderstanding; they plan to custom build the mast, rather than use earlier measures.

I really appreciate knowing your thoughts about using the original boom and your experience with the new cars (MDS). This will help guide some of my decisions.
 
Hi Bert,

Thank you for the ideas. The mast height measure is starting to take shape. As per your suggestion, I have relied more on the P measure plus the Q (deck step to cabin roof) plus the distance to top of boom. Given the height of the furling drum plus some base hardware to raise the drum sufficiently above deck, then also the furling hardware near the top, there is a fair bit of estimation necessary when using the jib luff as the basis for measuring.

I like your comment, “taller is safer except going under bridges.” There is a lot to consider in building a mast – far more than I initially would have anticipated.

Maurice
 
It might have come up with Seldon, or maybe if you talk to a sailmaker you can get an idea. If you add the P, Q, and the deck to boom measurements, you are going to come up short. You need to leave room for the sheeve box, and the halyard shackle and splice. It will make little difference if your sailmaker measures your rig and builds to that, but if you want exact measurements for stock sails to fit..

That said, if I were replacing my rig. I would use a mast about 1.5 feet taller and raise the boom so it still used the same size main sail. This would give me standing room under the boom and make maneuvers (jybing and tacking) much safer. It would also make for a nicer bimini/dodgercombo. As is, the dodger is a bit short, and it's an odd angle between the two. I would also change to a cabin top traveler. The original jib could be used with a pendent, or a new larger jib could be used.
 
It might have come up with Seldon, or maybe if you talk to a sailmaker you can get an idea. If you add the P, Q, and the deck to boom measurements, you are going to come up short. You need to leave room for the sheeve box, and the halyard shackle and splice. It will make little difference if your sailmaker measures your rig and builds to that, but if you want exact measurements for stock sails to fit..

That said, if I were replacing my rig. I would use a mast about 1.5 feet taller and raise the boom so it still used the same size main sail. This would give me standing room under the boom and make maneuvers (jybing and tacking) much safer. It would also make for a nicer bimini/dodgercombo. As is, the dodger is a bit short, and it's an odd angle between the two. I would also change to a cabin top traveler. The original jib could be used with a pendent, or a new larger jib could be used.
Warren, That's the difference between the 382 and the 383, plus the larger rudder. The 384 has more ventilation with the dorade vents, plus it has the helmsman seat
 
The 383 has a different aspect ratio. A taller mast and shorter boom, but as far as i know, the height of the boom above deck is the same. I want a taller mast, but to retain the longer boom, and increase the height above deck.

If in the market again, I'd certainly skip over and 382 and only consider later models.
 
Warren, Not to get in an argument, I believe that that the 383/384 boom is 1 an a half feet higher than the 382. You can see this by looking on sailboatdata and comparing the I, 50' to 46', and the P 42.5' to 40.5'.
 
Sonata's boom, a 383, is high enough to have plenty of head room. Even my tallest crew, standing in the cockpit is safe. That said, our dodger is still too low in my opinion. But that is how it was built prior to our stewardship. If I ever replace it, it will be several inches taller. As is, it's difficult to see through it at the helm, and really need to duck to enter the cabin.
Mitchell
 
Good to know. So "all" I need is the 383 rig. My boom just about touches my shoulders standing on the cockpit floor. I don't have a dodger, and I don't know how I could fit anything useful there. FWIW, most boats I have been on the dodger is tough to see through. I would usually stand behind the helm and look over it. Finding a boat where they are not awkward is pretty rare.
 
Yep, I have to look over it, or around it sitting on the coaming. Not that big a deal. But with my height just a little bit taller and I could look straight thru. We also have a Solar panel mounted to the dodger and that adds a few inches of height. Still plenty of room to the boom. And of course the main traveler is forward on the cabin top. Something I've never dealt with before, and really like it, and safety in the cockpit.
M
 
For those interested, (from an online source: http//sailboatrigdimensions.com/: )

model I J P E
382 45' 16' 40.5' 16'
383/4 49.5' 16' 40.33' 13.5'

I = deck to top of mast
J= mast to forestay pin at deck
P= top of boom to top of mast
E= boom length
 
I am continuing work on finalizing the mast order having moved the boat across the Gulf Stream. Does anyone happen to have ready access to their 384?

I would welcome a quick measure of the boom height from cabin roof top near mast to the top of boom (BH measure on the diagram below). Measuring parts of our broken mast we are getting a height of 1334 mm (52.5"). Was it really that high?

Thanks for any feedback.

1650988268024.png
 
I should be on Sonata next Tuesday night thru Thursday. Which may be too late for you, and she is a 383. But I believe the same rig dimensions as the 384. I won't be surprised the top of boom is that high off the cabin.
I will also be measuring for some new halyards, so if there are other (long) measurements let me know.
Mitchell
 
I should be on Sonata next Tuesday night thru Thursday. Which may be too late for you, and she is a 383. But I believe the same rig dimensions as the 384. I won't be surprised the top of boom is that high off the cabin.
I will also be measuring for some new halyards, so if there are other (long) measurements let me know.
Mitchell
Hi Mitchell,

Not urgent, but if you get a chance to confirm the height of your boom off the deck, I would welcome it.

Thank you,

Maurice
 
Good Morning!
Maurice, the Boom top of Sonata is 46" above the cabin top, 6" behind the mast. Where the boom extrusion begins aft of the gooseneck hardware. Hope this helps.
Oh, and our Main is fully battened and loose footed. I really like it. Never had full battens other than on Catamarans before. The PO had a Dutchman system installed,. It works well but Ithink if I were to do it again, I might go with traditional lazyjacks. Also we use tides sail track/slides.

I received your message too, and will let you know when the wrenches will be cut and shipped asap. The computer on the waterjet is being replaced. Waiting for the new one. In the meantime I am working on an alternate cutting method.
I will let you know how it's going.
Mitchell
 
Thank you, Mitchell. All really good information. The measurement is helpful. It gives me a "working version" with which to compare. Funny how one never takes any of these common heights into consideration before really needing it.

Fully battened and loose footed. Interesting. Although I have had full batten main on another boat - and loved it - I hadn't thought about loose footed. I was going to go with Tides Track, but Selden is doing the mast install and on first blush it appears that their MDS (in mast rollers) may be an alternate route. I have heard great things about Tides Track.

I appreciate your update on the wrenches and all the work you are putting into this front for all of us!
Thanks!

Maurice
 
Thank you to all Morgan owners who generously shared ideas, time, measurements and perspectives as we worked to rebuild our mast. Alas – it is done!

I had promised to share a few findings once the work was completed. Possibly much of the following is common-sense, but it may help others. My hope is to begin returning the many favours.

What do we have for a new mast and rigging? We have a Selden mast with a double spreader arrangement. The original chainplates worked fine for this new rig. We kept our original boom and vang saving some funds and still giving us the original boom layout. We remounted the reaching pole on a Selden track on the front of the mast. A new loose-footed mainsail was installed using Selden’s car arrangement.

What have I learned? I cannot begin to capture how much I learned; on the other hand, I had a lot to learn. Some lessons:
  • Boats of our vintage do not have a “catalog” of available masts – as is more-so the case with a newer boat.
  • A friend recommended that we keep all old parts from the original mast. We made a Gulf Stream crossing with the remnants of parts (especially the base) of the mast back to Florida (ensuring the mast was well secured to the deck). These pieces were very helpful for calculations as we worked with our rigger who in turn worked with Selden.
  • Be prepared to do a lot of measuring and re-measuring. Key measurements taken prior to the mast being destroyed by Hurricane Dorian would have been helpful.
  • Having lots of photos of our boat while she was in good shape served later when trying to recall or describe our boat’s configuration.
  • The mast is more than an aluminum pole (my original incorrect thought!). There were numerous components that escaped my attention until needing replacement. Again, photos were helpful, as was an extensive list that we drew up.
  • As with all boat-jobs, time was not our friend. In this case it took much longer than anticipated with Covid-19 and international travel considerations. We also did a significant refit while also working on the mast so naturally this added to time requirements.

I hope the above reflection has some value. Again, thank you to everyone.

Fair winds,

Maurice
 
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