• Welcome to this website/forum for people interested in the Morgan 38 Sailboat. Many of our members are 'owners' of Morgan 38s, but you don't need to be an owner to Register/Join.

Need help with squealing transmission or cutlass bearing

wild382

wild382

John
Well our old friend is back again...the squealing sound and loss of forward power has returned since replacing the old tranny with a brand new one.
We have a brand new tranny and clutch plate (New ZF12-Hurth) from Atlantic Deisel installed late last fall before haul out. Barely has 6-8 hours on it.
It ran fine for for that time.
Just to eliminate all the things we know it isn't
No not the fan belt
Had the shaft alingnment verified it was good
Not the cutlass... everyone says it would vibrate and chatter. It does not do that. Probably not the cutlass but not sure because we get so many different opinions.
Again we can run fine for 15-20 minutes then the squealing progressively gets worse within 10-20 seconds we quickly shift to neutral and it stops but then so do we!
Turn off the engine for 10-15 minutes, cool down restart runs usually for another 10-15 minutes but we keep it at 15-1600 rpm instead of 18-2000. When it starts making that sound it's loud like two pieces of metal spinning. Race bearing?
The gear cable is fine and the box shifts perfect forward and reverse.
No...nothing on the prop either ...no bags, grass etc. oil level perfect and correct oil.
Atlantic says they will fix or replace but just trying to figure out what it is.
We have a three blade feathering prop...no transmission oil cooler but we are not running for days...just several hours at the most...when it was working...
any ideas?
 
Oh poor John , Im racking my brain to figure just what the problem is with your squealing sound. Some one needs to open the engine room access panel in pilot biirth. And wait for the sound ! Just maybe you can hear it ,where or feel whats rubbing ? It just cant be the new trans !
Something is heating up expanding and rubbing ? A dry cuttless ? I'm not thinking so !
I dislike the idea of moving things in the water cause some day you have to go in and free them .I'm a fixed prop guy . !
 
John:
Iif you have dripless shaft seal check if is wet, dry carbon over ss will squeal.
Yurek
 
stnick said:
Oh poor John , Im racking my brain to figure just what the problem is with your squealing sound. Some one needs to open the engine room access panel in pilot biirth. And wait for the sound ! Just maybe you can hear it ,where or feel whats rubbing ? It just cant be the new trans !
Something is heating up expanding and rubbing ? A dry cuttless ? I'm not thinking so !
I dislike the idea of moving things in the water cause some day you have to go in and free them .I'm a fixed prop guy . !
Click to expand...
I guess we will have to try that...with the fear that by time I figure out where it's coming from it hasn't damaged something...if we don't go to neutral within seconds the engine will have so much resistance it will probably stop.
I have had my head in the engine room from the quarter birth panel. Maybe something with the stuffing box? There's lots of water there if I push the bellows back in the PSS ...thanks for the reply though:)
 
Sorry to hear of your frustrating problem John. Sounds exactly like what I dealt with for several years until last Fall when I finally pulled the boat and changed the cutlass bearing, among other things. I had almost bought a new transmission like you did but after talking to an area mechanic, he was almost certain it was the cutlass bearing. He was right. See photo of old and new bearings. What happens when they are worn out is they heat up and swell badly. They can actually seize-up the shaft stopping rotation. Not good. You'll probably have to drop the rudder to get the prop off. I changed my rudder shaft packing while it was out. Good luck with it John.

upload_2017-8-15_10-5-27.jpeg
 
Thanks Shelton...that's the most encouraging info from someone who has actually experienced this...we will dive on it too check for play...
 
Hi John, I dont know if it could be applicable to your type of prop but on a powerboat i once had i encountered the situation where at higher speeds we lost forward thrust ( i never heard any squealing but it was an inboard outboard). It was ok at low speeds. It wound up being a spun prop, something I had never heard of before, nor something i fully understood (prop had some sort of rubber collar inside it that separated from metal part of prop so only the rubber collar was spinning). It was repairable at a prop shop. Will be anxious to hear what it turns out to be, i think Shelton may be on to something. Good luck. Peter
 
captpete said:
Hi John, I dont know if it could be applicable to your type of prop but on a powerboat i once had i encountered the situation where at higher speeds we lost forward thrust ( i never heard any squealing but it was an inboard outboard). It was ok at low speeds. It wound up being a spun prop, something I had never heard of before, nor something i fully understood (prop had some sort of rubber collar inside it that separated from metal part of prop so only the rubber collar was spinning). It was repairable at a prop shop. Will be anxious to hear what it turns out to be, i think Shelton may be on to something. Good luck. Peter
Click to expand...
Well maybe but the engine actually starts slowing down abruptly in sync with the louder the squeal high pitched sound the slower the engine..all happens within seconds.
 
Checking the shaft play might not tell much. Mine didn't have any. The aft end of the bearing tube was not nearly as worn as the forward part. Look again at the picture. You are seeing the forward, inboard end that was badly worn. The aft, outboard portion was not nearly as bad. Hence, virtually no play when wiggling the shaft at the prop.

Also John, all of your symptoms, especially the squealing when only in gear after a period of time, point to the cutlass bearing heating up and trying to bind the shaft. If the engine is slowing down along with the increased sound, it is most likely because the shaft is being restricted and getting close to binding. You really want to deal with this before it tries to yank your engine off the mounts.
 
shelton_sawyer said:
Checking the shaft play might not tell much. Mine didn't have any. The aft end of the bearing tube was not nearly as worn as the forward part. Look again at the picture. You are seeing the forward, inboard end that was badly worn. The aft, outboard portion was not nearly as bad. Hence, virtually no play when wiggling the shaft at the prop.

Also John, all of your symptoms, especially the squealing when only in gear after a period of time, point to the cutlass bearing heating up and trying to bind the shaft. If the engine is slowing down along with the increased sound, it is most likely because the shaft is being restricted and getting close to binding. You really want to deal with this before it tries to yank your engine off the mounts.
Click to expand...
Thanks so much Shelton...I really appreciate the insight based on your past experience...
Is that black customary on cutlass bearings? Even old ones? Where did you get yours and how much was it? Did you install it? You must know Alan Shedd...
 
Yep, Alan is a good friend. He forwarded me this thread knowing about my experiences with this issue.
The black you see is the rubber liner in the brass tube that acts as the bearing. The shaft rides on the rubber. The groves you see in the new one allow water to enter around the shaft keeping the rubber cool and going on up to your stuffing box to lubricate and cool it. When the rubber wears it looses the groves and water has a hard time entering. The rubber heats up, swells and tightens around the shaft and causes the problems.
This is the bearing I bought from Defender: http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|311|2349117|2351343&id=3032771
It's dimensions are 1.25" ID x 2" OD x 5" L for around $80. You'll have to drill and tap two holes in the tube for the set screw bolts to keep it from rotating. I had a local machine shop do it but Alan did his own. I did the bearing install. It just slides up your drive shaft after you get the prop off and the old one out. The main work was dropping the rudder to get the prop off. The cutlass bearing itself was not too big a deal. Here's how the new one looked before new bottom paint. The bolts are the set screws.
upload_2017-8-15_18-59-26.jpeg
 
shelton_sawyer said:
Yep, Alan is a good friend. He forwarded me this thread knowing about my experiences with this issue.
The black you see is the rubber liner in the brass tube that acts as the bearing. The shaft rides on the rubber. The groves you see in the new one allow water to enter around the shaft keeping the rubber cool and going on up to your stuffing box to lubricate and cool it. When the rubber wears it looses the groves and water has a hard time entering. The rubber heats up, swells and tightens around the shaft and causes the problems.
This is the bearing I bought from Defender: http://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1|311|2349117|2351343&id=3032771
It's dimensions are 1.25" ID x 2" OD x 5" L for around $80. You'll have to drill and tap two holes in the tube for the set screw bolts to keep it from rotating. I had a local machine shop do it but Alan did his own. I did the bearing install. It just slides up your drive shaft after you get the prop off and the old one out. The main work was dropping the rudder to get the prop off. The cutlass bearing itself was not too big a deal. Here's how the new one looked before new bottom paint. The bolts are the set screws.
View attachment 7030
Click to expand...
Thanks so much...I'm guessing I'll have to get the yard to do it...sounds like it's gonna cost me some bucks! Haul out, jack stand rental (we just fold our cradle...we thought it was too small...we always needed to put an extra stand at the stern) dropping the rudder, oh well...it can't hurt to do it along with new stuffing material, again thanks for your generous response! I feel more confident we are on the right track. The engine had run great for the last 9 years...but I font even know when the last time the cutlass bearing was replaced.
 
This is the only thing that makes total sence. 30 year old cutless just worn out ! Just a great group ! We all just a little smarter about our boats due to its help with impossiable things,
Now I'll have to change the cutless before this happens to me. !
 
stnick said:
This is the only thing that makes total sence. 30 year old cutless just worn out ! Just a great group ! We all just a little smarter about our boats due to its help with impossiable things,
Now I'll have to change the cutless before this happens to me. !
Click to expand...
Yes...great group...put all our brain cells together and it's amazing what help you can get here!
Most of the time much more reliable than our local mechanics...everything is described as $$$$! to fix. Often not the case with the help from "MUG" Morgan Users Group.
 
The yard I use replaced my cutlass without dropping the rudder. I assume they disconnected the shaft on the transmission and were able to slide it forward.
 
tfrere said:
The yard I use replaced my cutlass without dropping the rudder. I assume they disconnected the shaft on the transmission and were able to slide it forward.
Click to expand...
Do you happen to have any pictures of the process without removing the rudder?
 
No, sorry. I was not there when they did it. I know my shaft was shortened to fit a Maxprop so that may have helped.
 
When I did it, I dropped the rudder, which takes 2 people, but isn't as bad as it seems. Just make sure that when the boat is blocked, it is high enough for the rudder to drop. The other way is to remove the transmission to make room for the shaft to slide forward. I don't think the shaft can be removed this way, just slid forward enough to change the cutless.

By dropping the rudder, I was able to clean the gudgeon and fabricate a new busing for it, clean the pintle part of the rudder, completely remove the propshaft, and clean the inside of the shaft log. It is also an opportunity to service your steering cables and rudder packing. All that added another day to what would could have been a one day job. In particular though, there was a lot of crud in the shaft log, which might have shortened the life of a new cutless. http://www.morgan38.org/morgan38/in...mission-or-cutlass-bearing.15336/#post-128617
 
Warren Holybee said:
When I did it, I dropped the rudder, which takes 2 people, but isn't as bad as it seems. Just make sure that when the boat is blocked, it is high enough for the rudder to drop. The other way is to remove the transmission to make room for the shaft to slide forward. I don't think the shaft can be removed this way, just slid forward enough to change the cutless.

By dropping the rudder, I was able to clean the gudgeon and fabricate a new busing for it, clean the pintle part of the rudder, completely remove the propshaft, and clean the inside of the shaft log. It is also an opportunity to service your steering cables and rudder packing. All that added another day to what would could have been a one day job. In particular though, there was a lot of crud in the shaft log, which might have shortened the life of a new cutless. http://www.morgan38.org/morgan38/in...mission-or-cutlass-bearing.15336/#post-128617
Click to expand...
How much did it cost Warren?
 
wild382 said:
How much did it cost Warren?
Click to expand...
Not much. I did the work myself, so it was the cost of the bearing (about $50) and other supplies, packing material, sealants etc. It was probably about $200 total. The labor quote if they yard did it was $2000, but I think that was very high, as it could be done be 2 people in a day or two.
 
Warren Holybee said:
Not much. I did the work myself, so it was the cost of the bearing (about $50) and other supplies, packing material, sealants etc. It was probably about $200 total. The labor quote if they yard did it was $2000, but I think that was very high, as it could be done be 2 people in a day or two.
Click to expand...
Yes...at $100 hour (that's our yard fee for service) they said they would put it up (haul out) in the slings drop the rudder to do the cutlass bearing, packing gland, etc. I'm hoping one day or less. As long as they don't keep the tools you far away (an old trick!) they said they have the pulling tool and the wrench fir removing the parking nut...kind of stinks but I wouldn't be able to do it comfortably.
 
It should be less than a day if that is all they do and 2 people are working. I didn't need help until I got to reinstalling the rudder. Took only a couple hours to get the rudder off. The hardest part was getting the shaft coupler off the shaft. The yard should have experience/tools for that. Then I built a special puller to ease removing the bearing. Again, the yard should have no delays there. If I were doing it again, with a friend, I would estimate 2 hours to drop the rudder. 2 hours to remove the shaft and change the cutlass and reinstall the shaft, and 2 hours to reinstall the rudder. Maybe they will let you help, so they only need to charge labor for 1 person.

Also, Make sure the engine alignment is correct when it's all said and done.
 
Warren Holybee said:
It should be less than a day if that is all they do and 2 people are working. I didn't need help until I got to reinstalling the rudder. Took only a couple hours to get the rudder off. The hardest part was getting the shaft coupler off the shaft. The yard should have experience/tools for that. Then I built a special puller to ease removing the bearing. Again, the yard should have no delays there. If I were doing it again, with a friend, I would estimate 2 hours to drop the rudder. 2 hours to remove the shaft and change the cutlass and reinstall the shaft, and 2 hours to reinstall the rudder. Maybe they will let you help, so they only need to charge labor for 1 person.

Also, Make sure the engine alignment is correct when it's all said and done.
Click to expand...
Thanks Ken...that gives me an idea anyway if what to expect. We always think how unusual it was to meet you at that Yoga center in Massachusetts to get the sails to you. Glad to have met you and hope life is treating you well.
 
John, sounds like the answer to your issue. I am not up to the lake until the 25th, will bring the transmission if you still want me to. Have not had time to do the rebuild. Best of luck.
 
moltzvt said:
John, sounds like the answer to your issue. I am not up to the lake until the 25th, will bring the transmission if you still want me to. Have not had time to do the rebuild. Best of luck.
Click to expand...
That's okay. I just wanted to know what damage if any was in that old transmission...
 
Hi John:
Sorry to hear about the squeal after the transmission replacement. Like Warren said, dropping the rudder is reasonably straight forward if the boat is blocked high enough or the rudder overhangs a little slope allowing enough clearance for the rudder to drop enough for the shaft to come out. We removed our rudder using 2 people and a line lead from a stern cleat, under the rudder and back up to a winch to control the lowering. We used a hydraulic floor jack to put it back in since I rebuilt the gudgeon while I was at it and it took some careful and repeated positioning to get it set up right. You will have to remove the steering quadrant, probably loosen the stuffing box - good time to re-pack it, and then remove the gudgeon while supporting the rudder in place, then it just slides out. I'm not sure how much the rudder weighs but I could carry it a short distance.

As I recall you have a MaxProp also. You can probably leave it installed on the shaft and slide the whole shaft with the prop out the back. (You will have to remove the shaft coupling that connects the propshaft to the transmission. This may require some persuasion - the coupling has a set screw and shaft key. The coupling is split and you might be able to pry it open a little. Penetrating oil can help - depending on corrosion. If you have a stuffing box - you'll have to loosen the stuffing box nut.) This is a good time to replace the packing in the stuffing box unless you have a dripless seal. We have the old-fashioned type of stuffing box and replaced the heavy rubber hose and hose clamps that connects the stern tube to the stuffing box. Don’t you like how one project leads to another?

As several have said, you can pull the shaft out forward into the boat rather than drop the rudder. This requires removing the propeller and after disconnecting the shaft, jacking up the engine to get clearance for the shaft to slide in and under the engine oil pan.

I ended up disassembling the MaxProp and removing it from the shaft first. It had some play in it and I sent it to the manufacturer for a little rework. If you do take it apart, it’s straight forward and there are good instructions but it is tedious. There are lots of parts than have to go together just right and you have to be sure to set the pitch correctly as you put it together. If you leave it in place, give it a shot of grease and a new zinc.

My cutlass bearing was worn. It came out easily – first remove the set screws in the side of the stern tube in front of the propeller. Mine were ¼ bolts that thread into holes in the outer bronze tube of the cutlass bearing. (These should be drilled for monel safety wires to help hold them in place). I used a large threaded rod with a washer on one end that was about the same diameter as the tube and used it to whack on the cutlass bearing to encourage it to slide out. Some apparently slide out easily.

The new cutlass bearing will not have holes for the set screws already drilled and threaded. You will have to do that, then install the set screws with a little loctite and safety wire them.

I know this seems like a lot to do but it is pretty straight forward. You just have to decide how much else you want to do while you have it out. Like since you may have disconnected the steering cables to remove the steering quadrant to drop the rudder, should you consider replacing the cables and pulleys? Is the gudgeon worn creating play in the rudder? Probably need to recheck engine alignment when you are done.

Good luck. Lot's of us have done the same things and I'm sure they can provide additional details and advice.
-Alan

Paragon M382 #265
 
Hey...thanks Alan...I probably won't be able to do this. Gonna cost me. We were planning on getting the bottom soda blasted and VC 17 applied after barrier boating. Got a bud of around $7,000.
The Periphael neuropathy in my feet and legs has gotten worse this year. It's painful and distracting. You know how much we love sailing and I am trying to keep us going...but balance and sitting too long are big issues. I hope to get another season or two out of my health but I'm not sure. I forget about everything when sailing...it's therapeutic!
 
Hang in there John. With your winning record on the lake, you should be able to recruit some young rail meat to lessen your physical demands. Be sure to tell them that working on the boat to get her ready is part of the team building exercise.
-Alan
 
paragon said:
Hang in there John. With your winning record on the lake, you should be able to recruit some young rail meat to lessen your physical demands. Be sure to tell them that working on the boat to get her ready is part of the team building exercise.
-Alan
Click to expand...
Thanks Alan...no racing this season...we realize the whole PHRF rating system is old and seriously flawed. We raced against Tim Etchells (Etchell founders son ...an excellent sailor) and Tim Britton...Tartan founders son) amongst so many other really great sailors here on Lake Champlain. It's a miracle we did has well as we did, often only sailing with Joni and myself, sometimes an additional 77 year old enthusiastic sailor...who was funnier than you could image...great morale booster...yelling things at other sailors at starts and the like...but all in good fun. The Morgan isn't a around the buoy racer as you know.
It's nearly impossible to find young people who would like to participate let alone any one else here. We barely got out 5-6 times but had some memorable sails. Going to get the Cutlass bearing replaced. The boat is in tip top condition.
May have to use the "s" word...but we had a good 8-9 years sailing...maybe we can get a few more seasons. I just don't know. Thanks for your help.
 
Our boat is out of the water...rudder dropped and new cutlass bearing going in. I will try and get pictures of cutlass bearing. Hopefully this is it. But the guys doing the replacement said it didn't look that bad but was "scored" ...that sound bad to me but we will see. $1500-$2000 job
 
The job is growing...of course! The PSS dripless has some kind of carbon piece or pieces inside that were turning to dust. The cutlass bearing was definitely worn. The rudder was removed and the gudgeons looked okay. Rebedded, going to need several coats of new bottom paint around the rudder. Replaced Dripless parts and packing material. Hopefully this, being all brand new will be the end of this squeal and shaft speed dropping. This season has not let us out sailing more than a few times...life is too short for this.
Cost? I'll let you know.
 
So we had the cutlass bearing replaced, dripless replaced ($350) packing gland, stuffing box, some kind of carbon pieces hat were behind or forward of the cutlass bearing on the shaft, the rudder was dropped, so essentially everything replaced. Will be checking it out to see if the dreaded "squeal" and slowing down of the drive is gone now. I still suspect that even though the tranny is brand new it could have been defective. It has a guarantee so if we still have this issue we will send that in. I wished I had been able to find out what was really wrong with the old tranny. This situation was way worse much louder and was happening in a very short time. 10-20 minutes max. Hope Shelton was right.
 
Boat was put in water Friday. Monday we started her up. Everything sounded different.

1) Vibration as soon as we went into gear.
2) In forward at idle speed we were doing nearly 3 knots!
3) they forgot to retighten the steering cables...we caught that before taking off to test thank goodness.
4) At about 1800-2000 RPM we were doing 7.1-7.2 knots!
5) terrible shimmy, shaking and vibration at 12-1600RPM ...

So she has to come back out and put the prop pitch back the way it was.
We think along with Alan Shedd that the prop, when reassembled, was pitched wrong ...causing cavitation, etc.
no squealing yet in the first 20 minutes but then we only ran it about 20-30 minutes. At 7 knots we got back to the marina a lot faster!
 
Uh...I Think this was the cause! Replacing the cutlass no squeal or anything now. Whew!
Do get just a very tiny bit of shimmy and shake at 14-16 RPM now. I think it always did that. They called it a sympathetic vibration.
It's real smooth at 18-22,000 RPM and we are now doing 6-6.5 knots. At idle in forward a much better 1 knot or so.

We ran around again today out on the water for 25-30 minutes with no problems...ah except one...

Pushing the gear lever down used to be forward now it's reverse...let's see "fall forward" goes forward that was the way it was
...now lever down means "back down"...they said this is the way most sailboat gears are set. I'll try it for a bit ...they said they would change it back if I want ...

So that's the story of the squealing transmission...never was the tranny. As Shelton Sawyer and Alan Shedd thought (cutlass bearing) you guys were right.
Thanks a bunch. I should have changed this 37 year old cutlass a long time ago..if I had known that was causing the sound...I hope this helps someone else out...cause no one seemed to know but these guys. Again thx a million...or should I say about $2500!

IMG_1277.JPG IMG_1274.JPG
 
shelton_sawyer said:
Sorry to hear of your frustrating problem John. Sounds exactly like what I dealt with for several years until last Fall when I finally pulled the boat and changed the cutlass bearing, among other things. I had almost bought a new transmission like you did but after talking to an area mechanic, he was almost certain it was the cutlass bearing. He was right. See photo of old and new bearings. What happens when they are worn out is they heat up and swell badly. They can actually seize-up the shaft stopping rotation. Not good. You'll probably have to drop the rudder to get the prop off. I changed my rudder shaft packing while it was out. Good luck with it John.

View attachment 7029
Click to expand...
Thank you Shelton!
 
My transmission worked with forward for forward and pull back for reverse. I thought of it as riding a horse and pulling on the reins to stop or go backwards. I have not personally seen a boat where you push the gearshift forward to go backwards. Is the water different in Lake champlain?, or what are they smoking. I think they hooked it up backwards and are giving you bull.
 
jimcleary said:
John

Hope this solves your problems. And that you will be back racing again next season.

Jim
Click to expand...
Thanks Jim
Our racing days may be over. I wish they had a cruising racing class. Even though we got second in the Championship Series and Third in the Billado Series here on Lake Champlain...I still doubt the validity of the PHRF rating that these boats have of 138-150. We have some pretty tricked out sails as you can see from the pictures. But we will be glad to just sail...it's a great boat...
 
royaltern said:
My transmission worked with forward for forward and pull back for reverse. I thought of it as riding a horse and pulling on the reins to stop or go backwards. I have not personally seen a boat where you push the gearshift forward to go backwards. Is the water different in Lake champlain?, or what are they smoking. I think they hooked it up backwards and are giving you bull.
Click to expand...
Yes our gear shifter is on the Edson pedestal. Up was reverse down was forward. The service guys said we are only one of about three boats set like that in 25 years they knew of. Hmmm. I can see how down would refer to "backing down" and visa versa. I just wondered what everyone else's gear forward reverse was. We have a 3 blade Classic Max Prop.
 
Hi John,
Glad the squealing problem seems solved. Looks like yours was in even worse condition than mine had been. Well worth getting it fixed.
 
shelton_sawyer said:
Hi John,
Glad the squealing problem seems solved. Looks like yours was in even worse condition than mine had been. Well worth getting it fixed.
Click to expand...
Thx Shelton...
Is your gear shift also in "forward gear" when it's in the "down" position?
Alan's is. Mine was but is reversed now. Down is reverse as in "backing down".
They said this is the normal way that most sailboats are.
 
Yep, Forward down is the way Edson had the clutch lever on the engine control module configured. It looks something like this: http://www.edsonmarine.com/marinestore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1086.

I replaced mine a few years ago and asked them at the time about switching to the now standard model http://www.edsonmarine.com/marinestore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1084. They said I couldn't because of the way the cables run to the transmission. I imagine the cables could be reconfigured but it would take some work.

You should talk to their tech support. They have been very helpful for me when I told them what I had.
 
shelton_sawyer said:
Yep, Forward down is the way Edson had the clutch lever on the engine control module configured. It looks something like this: http://www.edsonmarine.com/marinestore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1086.

I replaced mine a few years ago and asked them at the time about switching to the now standard model http://www.edsonmarine.com/marinestore/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1084. They said I couldn't because of the way the cables run to the transmission. I imagine the cables could be reconfigured but it would take some work.

You should talk to their tech support. They have been very helpful for me when I told them what I had.
Click to expand...
Does it matter if they switched it other than the confusion?
 
Okay ...so I called Edson...the tech there said it doesn't matter on that particular model. The correct and most common way is to shift the lever down as in "backing down"...but it won't hurt anything as long as my brain can adjust. The funny thing is that my wife always instinctively shifts it the way it is now then has to go the other way...she always said it didn't make sense..."wouldn't the lever up position be forward and lever down for reverse?" But then she's left handed...
 
John,
Now that I think about it, the reason for the pedestal shift to go as it does is dependent on the way your shift lever on the transmission moves. Your new transmission lever may now go the reverse of what it was.
 
shelton_sawyer said:
John,
Now that I think about it, the reason for the pedestal shift to go as it does is dependent on the way your shift lever on the transmission moves. Your new transmission lever may now go the reverse of what it was.
Click to expand...
That was kept the same when we changed it last year. It was still the same until they re-hauled the boat out Monday ...when they reassembled the MaxProp they reassembled it the other way around ...so now down is reverse. Gee whiz...
 
Last edited:
John, if memory serves correct from when I installed a new trans 2 years ago, the gear ratios for forward are different than reverse. The forward gear is designed for more continuous use vs reverse which is for intermittent use. It may be a problem if, with your reassembled Max Prop you are now running reverse gear for forward, continuous, propulsion.
 
bob_mcdonald said:
John, if memory serves correct from when I installed a new trans 2 years ago, the gear ratios for forward are different than reverse. The forward gear is designed for more continuous use vs reverse which is for intermittent use. It may be a problem if, with your reassembled Max Prop you are now running reverse gear for forward, continuous, propulsion.
Click to expand...
The transmission or cabling connection was not changed as far as I know just the internal settings of the prop. So wouldn't the gear ratio be unaffected ...when I spoke with the Max Prop tech he said the transmission is still turning the same directions as before. But that's a "brain cramper"...I can't even begin to think it through...could you explain from the transmission to the Max Prop the scenario you are describing?
 
Just called Sherry at Atlantic Desiel she said the ratio is slightly different but that ZF12M is designed to work either way forward or reverse...it's your choice.
Just might need to add an oil cooler (water from raw intake to cool tranny)
Now the question is which ratio is better?
A position forward normally is 2.136 I think and B position - reverse is 1.955.(edited. I made a mistake on the original post.)
That might explain why I'm still going a bit faster than before right? If the ratio was reversed? Let's see...does 2.14 provide more forward thrust or the other way around?
 
Last edited:
The lower gear ratio, 2.136 will give you a higher prop speed, eg. 2,000 engine rpm divided by
2.136 = 936 prop shaft rpm. 2000 engine rpm divided by 2.6 = 769 prop shaft rpm. However in reviewing the product literature for the ZF12M on Trans. Atlantic Diesel's website it seems the 12M comes with a choice a gear ratios for the forward (A) gear, those being 2.6 or 2.136 and a reverse (B) gear of 1.955 on either transmission. Continuing the example above if your new trans. has a forward ratio of 2.6 and a reverse of 1.955 AND you are now running in forward with the 1.955 ratio, your prop shaft speed when going forward, at 2,000 engine rpms, would be 1023. (2,000 divided by 1.955 =1023). This could account for your increased speed compared to your old trans. Hope this explanation makes sense. BTW I have dealt with Trans Atlantic Diesel and found them to be excellent in service and knowledge.
 
I have the 2.14 (2.136) position "A" forward and the 1.955 position "B" reverse.
It's just that A and B are the other way around.
So that's 87 more revolutions per minute more? or about 80' per minute if one was able to go forward in wood rather than water? Is there a down side in your opinion? Backing down does take more rpms so "braking" with reverse thrust isn't as effective. I could get use to down as in backing down...although today I went the wrong way again for a moment! It's nice doing 6.5 knots though instead of 5.6-5.8 ...

IMG_4674.JPG
 
Last edited:
I don't know if there is a definite downside. I seem to recall from the manual that came with my new trans. that the "A" position was to be used for forward. If Transatlantic Diesel says there is no difference I guess they're the experts ?
 
bob_mcdonald said:
I don't know if there is a definite downside. I seem to recall from the manual that came with my new trans. that the "A" position was to be used for forward. If Transatlantic Diesel says there is no difference I guess they're the experts ?
Click to expand...
Well maybe Bob...forward is faster but stopping with rev takes a bit more distance. I sure appreciate you using the numbers to explain...it did really help.
 
Bob
Since you do seem to be a "rocket scientist", what's your take on using the "higher" 1.955 gear ratio for forward instead of the 2.14?
Is the ".14" a significant difference in gear ratio? The only thing I've noticed is that backing down takes a few moments longer but easing the throttle forward gives me close 6.5 knots at 1800 RPM. I don't want to be putting too much "loading" on the tranny and or engine...lugging. If it's not that much, then I'm getting used to it in down as in "backing down" easily. I tried entering a dock yesterday and it was easy.
 
My take. I would for sure want the higher 1.955 ratio in forward. Since you motor in forward, it will give you better fuel economy, and a longer engine life. For reverse, speed isn't the only factor. The lower gear ratio, while slower, provides more torque and is easier on the engine. I would expect it to be better at stopping, when the prop needs torque to spin opposite the flow of water over it. Your observations differ in that it seems to stop slower. But even if it is spotting slower, and the engine RPMs are higher, the engine is not working as hard.
 
Warren Holybee said:
My take. I would for sure want the higher 1.955 ratio in forward. Since you motor in forward, it will give you better fuel economy, and a longer engine life. For reverse, speed isn't the only factor. The lower gear ratio, while slower, provides more torque and is easier on the engine. I would expect it to be better at stopping, when the prop needs torque to spin opposite the flow of water over it. Your observations differ in that it seems to stop slower. But even if it is spotting slower, and the engine RPMs are higher, the engine is not working as hard.
Click to expand...
Hi Warren...
It's actually the other way around or maybe that's what you are saying. :) It's a bit confusing but 2.14 is like a lower gear on a bike and is normally the "forward" gear called "A" position on the Hurth (ZF12) tranny. It's suppose to be better at dealing with waves, current, chop etc. without loading up the system too much is what I've been reading. In my case 2.14 is now my reverse gear instead of forward. But I'm getting real use to this 6.5 knots in forward as compared to my old 5.4-5.8! I can get in and out of places fast and back to sailing. We don't motor for very long or very far either so fuel economy isn't an issue. I just wanted to know from anyone if they knew for certain of any ill effects.
 
I do not think we are disagreeing. Higher numbers=lower gears.
2.14 = Low
1.955 = High
Everything else I said is correct. When the boat is moving forward, and you reverse to stop, it takes a lot of torque to reverse the prop against the forward motion of the boat. Lower gears would be better for that. And higher gears reduce RPM and produce higher speed going forward. So the high gear should be forward, and the low reverse. At least that is my conclusion.

Curious, have you compared the engine direction with the transmission output direction? When going forward, is the transmission spinning the same as the engine, or is it reversing?
As a point of comparison, I have a Volvo engine/trans. Unknown ratio. Also an unknown prop.(3 blade fixed) I cruise at nearly 7 kts, and wide open can make 8kts. Though at 8kts it vibrates and makes nasty noises. I think I get cavitation at that point.
 
IMG_4674.JPG
Warren Holybee said:
I do not think we are disagreeing. Higher numbers=lower gears.
2.14 = Low
1.955 = High
Everything else I said is correct. When the boat is moving forward, and you reverse to stop, it takes a lot of torque to reverse the prop against the forward motion of the boat. Lower gears would be better for that. And higher gears reduce RPM and produce higher speed going forward. So the high gear should be forward, and the low reverse. At least that is my conclusion.

Curious, have you compared the engine direction with the transmission output direction? When going forward, is the transmission spinning the same as the engine, or is it reversing?
As a point of comparison, I have a Volvo engine/trans. Unknown ratio. Also an unknown prop.(3 blade fixed) I cruise at nearly 7 kts, and wide open can make 8kts. Though at 8kts it vibrates and makes nasty noises. I think I get cavitation at that point.
Click to expand...
Here is the spec from the transmission manual. A position is forward ....because you don't use reverse for long periods and only short bursts.
I have the 2.14 and 1.955 essentially almost 2.5 to 2. In small print not seen in the image it says A is forward B is reverse.
 
John, what Warren is saying is correct. (Run A, imho). When anyone props an inboard or outboard you typically try to match prop pitch with the suggested max operating rpm of the engine. A sailboat is a bit different in that it can't plane off like a powerboat. Our max speed is "hull speed" determined by waterline. Lets call it 7.5-8 knots. What Morgan factory spec'd out with the 50hp Perkins and fixed 3 blade was about 7.5k@ 3500rpm usable max. They "over propped" (too much pitch) slightly for more "relaxed" (lower rpm) cruising. Your 6.5K @ 1800rpm might be a little too much load on the engine. Run your engine up in 500 rpm increments. Note when you see black smoke out the exhaust or feel a bad vibration. Black smoke indicates too much load on a proper running dieseI. I think you want to turn at least 3000 rpm to reach 7.5k. This winter on haul out you might reduce the pitch a bit on the prop.
My 2 cents.
 
It’s set at 11” on our MaxProp right now. I think the 1.955 is delivering one knot more at 1800 rpm.
 
My shifter handle is on my port side. I know a member here who moved the handle to the starboard side ! Thus making it now oposite forward and back movement that it used to be ! I added a Longer handle to try to make it easier for my wife to maneuver the boat .
 
Well...we got real used to going 6.5 knots at 1800-2000 rpm. It runs very smooth. MaxProp , Atlantic Deisel all say it’s not a problem. It’s up to us if we like it. It could always be reversed if someone wanted to. I find the slightly lower gear in reverse actually gives me a little better control backing up. No black smoke at 500 rpm intervals...all good.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top