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Gudgeon - Possible Replacement of

Troy

Troy

New Member
Survey is done. All pretty minor items except the rudder. The gudgeon is firmly attached to the Skeg but where it attaches to the rudder post there is approximately 1-2" of play. It appears complete but WAY out of spec. Is this repairable? Apparently the gudgeon is no longer available? Does anyone have a drawing or a spare? Can this also cause damage to the rudder post? We are thinking of having the current owners make the repair before purchasing instead of discounting the price because of so many unknowns once you get in there. Opinions? Recommendations?

Troy
 
Here is a picture of my gudgeon.
 

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Rolf,

Is your gudgeon out of the boat? Could you provide dimensions or even a drawing?

I know a company that can make a mold and reproduce them. They they make high quality bronze parts for classic boats such as Herresoff, and would need a good gudgeon as a pattern. Having these available would be a big benefit to owners of M-38's as this wearable part is not available. I would think there are many with wore gudgeons. I am one of them. This could be done over the winter if someone with a dry dock boated could provide one.

If you or any a other member could help out, please let me know.

John Noble
 
All,

To insert the images above, I created a "Rudders" photo album. The album is open for any member to add images. Please feel free to add images of your own rudder, gudgeon, rudder post packing glade, etc.

Jeff
 
Jeff, that's great! You would be providing a tremendous favor for all of us. There are two kinds of gudgeons - ones that are worn and ones that are going to wear. If we can get this done, and have these available off the shelf, it would make the design having a stainless steel rudder post and bronze gudgeon work to our favor. The gudgeon is softer metal. Having it wear then becomes preferable to wearing the post which is more expensive and complicated to replace. These would be casted over size, and then machined to the final product. The company is Bristol Bronze:

http://www.bristolbronze.com

The owner, Roger is an engineer, and knows what he is doing. He make hundreds of reproduction parts for old classics. The Herreshoff on the home page is his boat. I provided him with a prototype Morgan name plate like those on the 384 which he now can produce in bronze if anyone is interested. They are much better than the pot metal original.

Having them made piece-meal is OK. But it would be nice to have one in hand, and replace it during a routine haul out without waiting for one to be produced. We will not know the cost until he gets into it. He said hundreds, not thousands. If he can do investment casting, it would be on the low side of that.

Jeff, we met at Manjack Cay, Abaco years ago. I was on my M-384, Noble Prize. You were on your M-34. I will message you my phone number. Let's talk. Thank you very much.
 
John,

I am very pleased you recalled our meeting at Manjack. The quick tour of Noble Prize in July 2008 so impressed us that when we began the search for a vessel to replace our beloved M-34 the M-38x was among our top 3 choices. (The other two you ask? Bristol 35.5 and Tartan 37. Our time on the M-34 made us very fond of shoal draft, centerboard designs.)

Nether Anne nor I were able to recall your's or the boat's name. We have often wondered if the M384 and the owners that we met at Manjack were still on the water together. I have considered attempting to find you via this site, but thought the search was likely a "needle in a haystack". You and Noble Prize played a significant role in our decision to purchase Pilgrim.

I will contact you directly this weekend to discuss the gudgeon.

Jeff
 
Cool! I'm impressed you remembered us, and flattered we influenced your choice of your new boat. I recall coming over in my dingy to check out your M-34. We have done so much with her, I thought she was a Crealock 34 from a distance. Sorry about your loss, but happy the way it turned out. You are doing an amazing retrofit.

Maybe we will meet in the Bahamas again. Dotty and I go every year for 5 weeks. Talk with you soon.
 
Sign me up, too. I thought I was going to need a new gudgeon last fall and I'm sure it's just a matter of time. Unless it's quite pricey, I'd like to get a spare.
 
As a group looking into multiple gudgeons, we should evaluate Troy's source of gudgeons as well as Bristol Bronze.
 
I admit I do not understand the wear issue. You mean the rounded part of the gudgeon no longer fits snugly? In any case, Since I intend to keep my boat and try to have spares, if someone is going to duplicate the part, I would buy in, unless the cost is over one boat unit. In that case, we are paying too much.
 
Ha! Hi Terry - yes I was imagining (for no rational reason) something in the range of 0.2 to 0.3 boat units.

For any new boaters, a boat unit (also known as a Boat Buck) is $1k and the term was invented to help us feel a little better about spending money. Example: "Honey! It'll only cost 2 Boat Bucks!"
 
Thanks for moving this Mark. I don't feel hijacked at all. We really are beyond what to look for in a survey and onto the difficulty of finding gudgeons for the M-38X boats. Rikke and I are waiting to hear back from the owner's on our counteroffer for Gorma due to this issue but will happily share the machinist's name and ideas (I don't have it handy) even if the purchase isn't completed.
 
If a pair of gudgeons could be loaned to a tech company or university with a 3 D printer there would be a model for the Mold maker to work from. Just a thought.
 
Actually, I saw piece on the nightly news yesterday about kids making things on a 3D printer, and thought the same thing. It would be a great way to make a pattern, but have no idea where to get it done. If anyone has any leads, let us know. Also, I would like options to Bristol Bronze. Maybe a machine shop approach is better. Machining will be necessary anyway. All ideas on this are welcomed.
 
I finally found the question put to me - sorry my gudgeon is back on the boat, but I would be interested in learning about spares and costs. What a great site!
 
I haven't investigated my gudgeon (its tight, thank you). But wouldn't it make sense to address wear by having the hole overbored, and a plastic/delran sleeve inserted. It would be easily replaced and would eliminate new casting costs. Any reason why that would not work?
Dave
 
Attached is a drawing of the rudder gudgeon from Jeff Lovett's M382. He traced it and sent the tracing to me. I then called him, and got the dimensions listed. If someone with a 383 or 384 has their boat hauled, would it be possible to verify the drawing so we could all use it on all models. I realize that have a gudgeon off the boat would be best for verification, but even info on the length and height would be useful. I agree with Bob McDonald that machining one from Bronze rather than casting would be the way to reproduce them. I have a friend with a machine shop who will make one for my 384. This would further verify the usefulness of the drawing.
 

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A number of years ago a friend of mine looked at a 382 in the Chesapeake near Annapolis. The surveyor that he hired said the boat was in very good condition but the gudgeon was severely deteriorated and had to be replaced. They investigated having one made and were quoted almost $2000. The deal never went through on that boat. That was quite a while ago and I don't know if they were talking about a casting or having one machined. I would think that machining would be less expensive if a decent number were ordered together.

Jim
 
Thank you Jeff for providing the info for a drawing. That is what made it all happen.

This all started with Troy's inquiry - see above. I imagine his boat's gudgeon problem cost the seller dearly. The boat had to be rehauled and stored at the Hinckley yard in Stuart while the new gudgeon was being fabricated.

My gudgeon has about 3/16 inch play at the bottom of the rudder if I move it side to side. A surveyor with a 383 told me it was not a problem until the packing gland on the rudder post started to leak. Although I do not have this problem, I figure getting one made during my upcoming haul would be worthwhile especially if I ever sell the boat to someone with a picky surveyor. Then again I have a good friend with a machine shop in his garage. The bronze was $142 deliver to him in San Francisco. I ordered 2 - 2 inch by 2 inch by 7 inch pieces from National Bronze. Aluminum bronze 954 was the consensus alloy according to all the bronze dealers I contacted, good salt water corrosion resistance and strength.

Back when this started, I contacted a local machine shop. They wanted $800 for one with a lower price for larger quantities. But they said material was $400 possibly because most suppliers sell it in 12 in. length increments.

I went in the water the other day and best I could determine the length and height of the gudgeon on my 384 matched the drawing (nice time to have the boat behind your house during a warm winter in Florida). I will have my friend start the machine work, but not do the details until I haul and confirm that the drawing is exact. I will then decide if I need to send the original to him.

My goal for this group is to have workable drawing for other owners to use if needed. It is better to be able make a gudgeon and have it ready for a haul out.
 
my rudder packing leaks. I thought it was because of some pitting in the stainless shaft. Now I think it is because of some gudgeon play.... Lee Nicholas, what do you think?
 
schlepper said:
my rudder packing leaks. I thought it was because of some pitting in the stainless shaft. Now I think it is because of some gudgeon play.... Lee Nicholas, what do you think?
Click to expand...

John, have you replaced or adjusted your rudder packing recently?
Dave
 
John
I don't think a looseness at the gudgeon would cause the gland to leak, unless the play there was very excessive. Two years ago I repacked the gland with goretex packing and it still leaked, even with the packing nut as tight as I could get it. When Dana came out of the water this fall I repacked the gland and found the cause. While inspecting the threads on the gland I found a small blob of fiberglass resin in the threads. That blob stopped the nut from tightening all the way and the packing was never compressed against the shaft. With a wire brush in a drill the threads were cleaned and the nut now travels down enough to squeeze the packing. Problem solved, I hope. Pitting on the rudder shaft is a different story. If it's bad enough, the packing can't stop the leakage. If that's the case, a machine shop may be able to build up the metal and make it smooth again. I'd try making sure the threads are clear first. It's the cheapest solution.

Jim
 
I agree with Jim. It would take a lot of wear and resulting play to cause the rudder gland to leak. I repacked mine some years ago, and it has no leak. I also have some pitting under the packing.

It is easy enough to check to gudgeon for wear: Get in the water. Grab the bottom of the rudder, and see if you can move it side to side or fore and aft. If the gudgeon is loose or not set correctly, that may also cause play.
 
John ,I doubt very much that gudgeon wear is your problem ! But its not that hard to verify, the wiggle test ! Take that rudder nut off, pull all the packing out , replace with new Gortex and Tighten that NUT . A home made wrench like Jeff's is the way to go ! Not a bad In the water job. That steering quadrant back together is really a bigger deal . It always tries my faith ! If you need a hand i'll help ya .
 
Thingsmiths.com is a 3 D printing company that makes 3 D copys I'm going to investigate what such a thing will run . ! Go on line and look . !
 
Thingsmiths.com in Ann Arbor Michigan is a 3 D printing company that can make a copy for us. Does any one have a set so they can scan or a CAD file they can print from . As a Morgan owners we know this part is important to us all and a 3D copy would be invaluable to machinist in the reproduction. Ill ask the cost of the job if there is a copy or a CAD file availialble. They are in Ann Arbor 734-707-8148 , you can also chat on line !
 
I have been in the water and checked the rudder at the gudgeons for play.... maybe a little bit of play... not a great deal. I will have to at some point when I get sick and tired of being sick and tired of having the little ribbon of water course it's way and keep my bilge wet, i'll pull the quadrant and really give it another going over.... and tighten it tight tight....
 
John
If there is only a small amount of play in your gudgeon, then that is not causing the leak at the gland. Best to bite the bullet and get access to the gland and clean it up and repack. With the nut off, and the old packing removed, run the nut up and down the threads to be sure it is free to travel the whole way. Then repack and tighten. The worst part of the job is hanging upside down in the locker to work.

Jim
 
Hi All,
We had to repair our gudgeon years ago. We took it to a fab shop and they braized new bronze in and then re-bored the hole for the shaft. We were not earning and out cruising at the time so I am sure we got it done affordably. If ya'll want to go the 3D print route I would be willing to draw the 3D model that is needed for free. I believe I have the drawing from Brewer
Best,
David
 
I have Sarabande (1978-382) on the hard right now performing blister repair. When checking my rudder I discovered that I had quite a bit of play at the gudgeon. Now that I have the rudder out of the boat I measured both the rudder shaft and the gudgeon bearing bore diameters to discover a 0.125" difference. As mentioned above I thought of using some sort of sleeve. Does anyone have a good argument for not sleeving in lue of replacement? Also, I had to severely damage one of the brass screws extracting it. Does anyone know where I might find a replacement?

PS. If there still is interest in a 3-D model of the gudgeon I'd be happy create one and post it.

Thanks,
Mike
 
I decided to have a machine shop make me a .040" thick walled sleeve out of delrin. I cut it at an angle to get it over the rudder shaft. Rudder turned great and no play to speak of. I will see how the delrin wares over time.
 
Michael:
I like the sleeve idea. When I initially discussed the idea or rebuilding my gudgeon with a friend who runs a machine shop, the plan was to bore the hole in the gudgeon oversized then fit a bronze or oilite sleeve with a flange of the right size so it could be rebuilt easily in the future. He decided to take an easier approach and built the worn gudgeon back up with with bronze welding rod then bored it out to the correct size. I should have had him make it slightly loose. It took some grinding and polishing to get it to fit. Your Delrin sleeve should be easy to replace and should work well if it doesn't slip around and start binding. Please keep us posted.

John:
John Noble had a friend build a new gudgeon for him machined from a solid block of bronze. He should have an accurate set of drawings they used for the process. See his posts earlier in the tread.
-Alan
Paragon M382 #265
 
Thanks Alan.
I have a machine shop friend who can make them if the drawings are accurate...do you know if they spec to the thousandth of an inch or if that is necessary? And thanks for the Shelton contact. Really nice guy.
 
Michael Rush said:
I had to severely damage one of the brass screws extracting it. Does anyone know where I might find a replacement?
Click to expand...

Michael,

Only use bronze fasteners for installing the gudgeon. Brass does not have the strength or longevity when immersed for this application. Also, The delrin sleeve is a good idea. I had a similar bushing custom machined for my worn M34 rudder shoe. It worked well and held up for over 6 years.

Jeff
 
I sure like Mike Rush for his idea of delran sleeve. I see on Amazom a 4 inch round delran piece about 40 dollars. Than finding a machinest to Take it down to the correct size. Delran is really a great choice used in industery to stop wear on grinding surfaces. Mike Rush has the answers on this.
 
If your gudgeon is worn, my suggestion is to have a new one fabricated by a machine shop using the original as a guide. My original from my M-384 was different from Jeff's M-382 from which the above drawing was made. It is beefier. The "legs" on the forward side that slide into the notches in the skeg are 5/8 in. thick, and the metal around the rudder post is almost an inch thick. The drawing above is a good guide, but you cannot do better than reproducing the original with a smaller, unworn bore.

My gudgeon was not very worn, but I had play. Morgan oversized hole to 1 13/16 in. for the 1 3/4 in. post. I made my bore a little smaller. I used a large c-clamp to hold the aft end of the gudgeon tight around the rudder post during installation. Care needs to be taken to not over tighten the screws though the skeg as this could cause the aft end to open resulting in a loose fit around the rudder. The clamp helped prevent this from happening. I tightened the center screw first with the clamp real tight. Then I carefully tightened the other two screws.
 
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