Jib Sheet Fouling in Midship Cleat

Discussion in 'Main Morgan 38 Sailboat Forum' started by mpearson, May 10, 2019.

  1. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Does your jib sheet ever get fouled in the midship cleat? It seems to happens to us a lot, especially in lively winds … which is precisely when you don’t want to deal with things like that. It adds stress to the captain, crew and rigging, especially when racing.

    1965F779-61BE-41D7-B74A-922B3A0AD409.jpeg
    Jib Sheet Fouled in Midship Cleat

    Has anyone figured out a way to avoid with this?

    I came up with this invention that I’m certain is going to make me millions of dollars: Bullpads. Then the admiral will lift our spending freeze and I could afford to buy more bling for Zia.

    B65BED10-7D21-4994-A7B4-EADE77D33886.jpeg
    Bullpad at Work

    I made them with about $10 of materials, but I’m pretty sure I could sell a pair in West Marine for $220. They are marine grade, after all. ;-)

    I used these materials:
    • high density closed cell foam (fairly rigid) from a $5 yoga block I bought on Amazon. It was $10 for a pair but I used the 2nd block for other things.
    • shock cord
    • small rectangles of Kings Starboard on the ends to avoid the shock cord cutting into the foam. This is also what gives Bullpads their 'marine grade' rating.
    I cut/notched the shape of the cleat horns into the foam so it sits quite tight.

    B2EB3C9C-50DF-4BA3-B7BE-1D853A303E1D.jpeg

    They store very tidily in the nearby dorade box when not in use. For example, when docked.

    Q: Why the name ‘Bullpad’?
    A: We needed a cool nautical name that was easy to remember. My wife & I decided on Bullpads because:
    1. The cleat kinda looks like a bull’s horns, and (more technically)
    2. They are on the sides of the bulwark.

    Q: So shouldn’t they be named ‘Bulpads’?
    A: Yeah, but that looks weird.

    BTW, I think our midship cleats on the Morgan 38 are technically called ‘Hawse Pipe Cleats'. Because they are in/on a hawse pipe through the bulwark. However, ‘Hawse Pipe Cleat Pads’ is just not a cool name.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2019 at 10:16 PM
  2. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    you mean like these...

    I like yours better!
    Great solution to a bad problem


    [​IMG]
    DESCRIPTION
    SPECS
    The Cleatboot by ProBoat is a simple way to make sure that your sheets and sails don't get snagged on a horn cleat anymore.

    The Cleatboot uses two high strength plastic chocks and heavy-duty 3/16 in. shock cord to create a tight fit around any cleat, creating an angled layer of protection for sheets, toes & sails. No more having to use numerous layers of tape or drilling in snaps for canvas covers -- the shock cord allows you to easily install and remove from your boat before and after racing.

    Each kit comes with four chocks to cover two cleats, and the necessary shock cord. Works on any horn cleat that rises above the deck more than 5/8 in. (16mm), and can be adapted to almost any length.
     
  3. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Oh my gosh. I was kidding around but now I need to bring out my patent lawyer. ;) Actually they have a pretty evolved design. I like the slanted side where the line usually fouls.

    A reasonable price too.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  4. dave_a

    dave_a Dave Ahlers

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    Mark, just curious - what size (%) is your jib? My genoa car was aft of the midship cleat and I don't recall the issue occurring. Mine was 130+/-.
     
  5. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Dave, that’s interesting. Our Genoa is also 130% and the car is aft of the cleat. On a day of vigorous tacking it typically gets fouled a couple times.

    I would assume I’m doing something strange/wrong when we tack, but we’ve been out a couple times recently with racing coaches/mentors & they haven’t said anything about odd tacking or car placement. They had many other great tips. I’ve been sailing for 45 years but rarely racing. I like the learning of new tricks when racing. It’ll help us with our cruising, which is what we truly love.

    So, I wonder what the difference is & why it wasn’t an issue on your boat.

    Another interesting thing about racing: we were often getting override on the winches (jib sheets). Never happens in cruising mode. But when in “super fast” racing mode we have 2 people on the winch- 1 grinding & the other tailing. The incoming line occasionally flys up too high & causes override. So we just put a 2nd turning block on a car, on the track aft & low by the winch. We are trying that out today for the first time.
     
  6. jimcleary

    jimcleary James M. Cleary

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    Mark

    Do you have the inside tracks that run alongside the cabin sides?

    Jim
     
  7. jimcleary

    jimcleary James M. Cleary

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    Mark

    Do you have the inside tracks up close to the cabin sides?
     
  8. dave_a

    dave_a Dave Ahlers

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    The soon to be windward sheet gets shaking pretty good in a tack. I found pulling the windward sheet taught with a single wrap on the winch (before the tack) to be helpful. Before the tack makes sure your sheets are running clear or fair. Sounds like BS, but taking the slack out of the lines clears any tangles, and lets you eyeball any problems before there is tension on the lines.
    Overides? the more wraps on the winch the more likely an override. Race with a 2 wrap linebacker working your jib sheets. I dunno. My wife and I had such a tight override once I ran a line around the port winch (which was tangled) up ahead on the sheet with a boy scout rolling hitch. Had to winch the sheet in with the starboard primary winch to get it loose. Almost tore the Edson binnacle off with that spaghetti fest!. Too much rope !
     
  9. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Hi Jim - yes, we have the inside tracks but honestly only used them with the 90% jib that was on Zia when we bought her. Curious to hear your thoughts on it.

    Dave - yes, we usually make sure things are tight & orderly before we tack. I hadn’t thought about the number of wraps, but that makes sense & we will pay more attention to that, thanks. I usually tell new crew 2-3 wraps when pulling by hand. When it gets too hard, 1 more wrap & over chrome lip & into self tailing jaws. Maybe that’s too many wraps.

    We just had a great day of sailing with no overrides & no fouling on the midship cleats. It was super light winds, though, so I’m not declaring victory yet. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  10. wild382

    wild382 John

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    That jib sheet should be being fed over taking up the slack by the crew, not taught, but not slack as to not allow the “flying jib sheets”. Works perfect once you get the whole procedure down. :)
     
  11. jimcleary

    jimcleary James M. Cleary

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    Mark

    I always sheet the 130% to the inside track. Then back to a turning block on the outside track to get a fair lead to the winch. The car on the inside track is almost at the end of the track just aft of the large windows. Of course we are only cruising and never racing.

    My biggest fouling issue is the cleat on the top of our Lofrans Tigre windlass. It sits up on the middle of the foredeck just daring me to leave too much slack in the jib sheet. I like your design of the Bullpad. I will have to make one for the windlass.

    Jim
     
  12. struell

    struell Stephen Ruell

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    We have always used the inner tracks and never used the outer tracks. With the inners you never have the sheets anywhere near the cleats and don't have this issue.
    I thought the inner track is preferred for upwind sailing and have never even tried the outer tracks. When do you use the outer vs the inner? I admit to not being very knowledgeable so maybe I am missing something?
    Our biggest fouling problem is the hatch on the foredeck.
    Steve
     
  13. jimcleary

    jimcleary James M. Cleary

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    Steve & Mark

    The 130% jib and the 90% working jib (when used) are sheeted to the inner track all the time. The outer track is only used to provide a fairlead to the winch and to sheet in the asymmetrical spinnaker. As you say the inner track is for a tighter sheeting angle for going upwind, but we never change when we're off the wind. Then again we're not racing and we almost always get to where we are going just fine.

    Jim
     
  14. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Thanks Jim & Steve! We will switch to the inner track for our 130%. I would have guessed the 130% might be more likely to backwind the mainsail, but I trust you guy’s experience. We will give it a shot.
     
  15. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Sure enough, I pawed through our Owner’s Manual and it refers to the “inboard genoa track” as being an asset, “particularly for racing”. Douh! It's funny, I've had 3 very experienced racing mentors (and they really are good) on the boat since last year and nobody noticed or mentioned the inner track. I'm looking forward to trying that and thanks for the help.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  16. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    You will point much better I suspect using the inner track. The Morgan is set up similar to my Moore 24 in this respect. Both boats with inboard and rail tracks. The 90% Blade on my Moore 24 even has its own short track further inboard, and further forward. Pretty tight sheeting.
    Even my Light air 155% Genoa (on the Moore), goes to the inboard tracks. I have never used the outer tracks. I have owned and raced that boat since 1982. Both boats are heavily dependent on their headsails. All that said, I still don't have a lot of time on Sonata, so your milage may vary...
    Mitchell
     
  17. wild382

    wild382 John

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    Lots of theory here... As a anecdote...we have been unable to beat two particular boats for a long time when beating or reaching. The strategist and Tactician from Wild Oats...the big boat in Aussie land suggested we pay more attention to the leverage (actual VMG speed) an elongated fin keel exhibits on reaches. We have both tracks in and out. We decided to try the outside again and easily passed both boats. We still are not quite as fast directionally but cracking off a bit we actually were able to hold our own much better. Pointing as high as other boats with the Morgan you go slower and often worse VMG. All that said that’s with a 130. If it was a 90-100 certainly use the inside track. The sheeting angle is more appropriate. Just my two cents worth. Try it for your self too. It’s a hassle but can be worth trying if your interested. One other thing is that with the 130 or bigger you are putting a huge load on the end of that little track.
     
  18. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    Hi John. I went out last night and moved to the inner track. Pulled out the Genoa (130%) and things seem to fit pretty well. I had the same thought you did: seems like a lot of load on a pretty small track. But we are going to give it a shot on Saturday.

    It sounded like you thought maybe the inner track is better for pointing and the outer for reaching? Do you have a pole? And/or how about using the inner track and poling out the clew when on a deep reach?

    I walked around our club last night looking at tracks. All the racing boats are on a track mounted very close to the cabin wall (like our ‘inside’). As expected, on the cruising boats there was a mixed bag of everything you can imagine.;)
     
  19. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    John,
    That's an interesting observation. I have never raced our Morgan so really have no scale for speed against other boats. I would guess that opening up the slot and bearing off slightly makes a speed difference. It makes sense. Bearing off and gaining speed. I'm going to try both inner and outer tracks soon :)

    I have a question to put out to all y'all. Has anyone used an inner forestay/baby stay and flown both headsails at the same time? Experiences?
    Sonata is set up with a detachable stay, primarily for a storm sail as understand it. I am just curious if it may be effective.
    Mitchell
     
  20. wild382

    wild382 John

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    There’s a whole theory on what “pointing” really is. Your boat may very well be “pointed” at 30 degrees apparent with the inside track but...your side ways drift may be much higher than you think. Modern day GPS certainly is capable and can show your “point” of angle but if you actually sail a distance of say 3-6 miles a typical “around the cans” race you may find you were correcting for the drift and not known just how how you were not really pointing and making your “point” as well as you may have thought. You may actually “beat” better to a given “point” without as much leeward drift by sailing to your vessels lines” as it were. Morgan’s really have a great keel design created to leverage with more “lift” like a glider wing vs a jet wing. So sailing off the wind but not too much (you don’t want to actually lose VMG) can be better. You know you almost never win at the go faster by sailing towards a reach when you should be pointing. Just how much depends. It’s fun to find the speed set slot that actually gets you to the mark first.
    As you go faster getting lift from these wonderful keels you get to point higher thus faster and quicker to your mark. My explanation might not be perfect academically but I hope it helps. I have some great info ...somewhere.✌️
     
  21. mpearson

    mpearson Mark Pearson Staff Member

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    We had a vigorous day of sailing yesterday with a super experienced racing pro. He didn’t like the shape of our 130% Genoa on the inner track. He said the track would need to be extended 12-18” aft for it to be effective with our genny. So that is going on my “to do” list but in the meantime he was happy with it on the outside track.

    Also we had zero winch overrides thanks to the extra 'fair lead' block on a car aft by the winch. And the Genoa sheet never fouled in the midship cleat thanks to the Bull Pads. Happy with both those improvements. I think I like my homemade Bull Pads more than the commercial Cleatboot that Mitchell mentioned because it is wider & is compressed against the deck. Whereas the Cleatboot is more narrow & there would still be a space between it & the deck where the line could foul.

    Mitchell - Terry Thatcher (and others) on this forum have an inner forestay. I don’t know if he flys both headsails at once. Hopefully he’ll see this & chime in. If not, you might want to start a new thread with a title related to that.

    Cheers
    Mark
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019
  22. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    Mark,
    Sounds like you are making great progress! It's very cool you have such an experienced Pro onboard. I will also try our 130% on the outboard track soon. This is a great and informational subject, thanks.
    I will try a new thread on my twin headstay/headsail question.
    Mitchell
     
  23. wild382

    wild382 John

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    This is “our pro” Bill Gladstone. https://northu.com/about/bill-gladstone/ Sheeting arrangements, sail shape, sail draft and air and water flow over the “foils” can be quite different on different boats. One thing we I’ve learned is that some “Pro Racers” are not familiar enough with actually racing a cruising boat and have little “real world experience” on other non race boats. Their experience is on “go fast boats” like the J105 etc that can beat to wind at 25 degrees or more sometimes.
    Guys like Bill have actually raced on larger heavy displacement boats with elongated modified fin keels like the Morgan but they are hard to find. Sailing on one only a few times (which is what I often find...after all they are racers not cruisers) doesn’t constitute enough experience...in my own experience. A lot of well intentioned info isn’t accurate for a boat like the Morgan. We have had and used over roached mains that would have be great on a appropriate boat but can cause excessive wether helm on the Morgan.
    In Ted B’s words “What the hell is a sail like that on the Morgan for!? Well a well known “Pro Racer” sail designer said “it would make us faster.” No...it didn’t.
    Going with a relatively “unroached flatter Main, still having a relatively deep draft for power worked the best. I’m not an expert when it comes to the pocket or slot between the head sail and main but bringing the clew if a large headsail inboard even more behind the Main might end up in actually choking the air flow off. Remember it’s not just the two sails and how they work together. The foil under the water (the keel) also works together with the sail foils to provide the drive for the boat as well. Think twice before drilling more holes.
    Some food for thought. Good luck guys.

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