Inner Forestay, Storm Sail, Headsail Question

Discussion in 'Main Morgan 38 Sailboat Forum' started by Mitchell S Allen, May 19, 2019.

  1. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    Point Richmond, CA
    As suggested by Mark Pearson; starting a new thread regarding the removable inner headstays on some M38s.

    Our beloved Sonata has an removable inner headstay on a lever. I have never used it.

    Deck mount is just aft of the anchor locker bulkhead with a strut anchoring through deck to that bulkhead. The upper mount is about spreader height on the mast. No running backstays are used in our situation. This was all done by the previous owner, As I understand it, primarily to facilitate a storm jib. Sonata did several Pacific Cup races to Hawaii and much of the additional gear was a result of the regs, and safety concerns for ocean races and offshore sailing.

    My question after the long winded intro...

    Do any of you with an inner headstay, baby stay, whatever, use them to add sail area along with a jib or genoa while sailing normally. Not just as storm sailing with storm jibs?
    I am just wondering if it may be effective in adding sail area, going upwind, etc. I kind of expect it may not be worth the extra effort. And I wonder if this may actually hurt the speed in the end.

    Curious if anyone has tried twin headsails.

    Thanks,
    Mitchell
     
  2. dave_a

    dave_a Dave Ahlers

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    Mitchell
    To paraphrase Holiday Inn Express adv: I'm no expert but I did sail on a 97 Gozzard 36 cutter rig yesterday. The objective was to convince the captain to join Amelia Island YC in our club races, and to see what extra speed might be found. My first experience on a cutter, btw.
    Upwind I do not think it added any extra speed. It did add a lot of complication and effectively hid the tell tales on the headsail.When flown, it back winded the mainsail badly, requiring sheeting the main as there was no traveler. I wasn't steering, so I can't speak to any added weather helm. Typically, a long keeled boat doesn't like to be pinched with the boom on centerline (the Morgan doesn't IMHO). Deployed, the staysail actually made it a little easier to tack the headsail through the forward slot between the stays.
    Reaching I'd give it a maybe. The wind was up and down and tough to get a real test. Opening the slot between head & staysail seemed to get all the sails "working" together. We didn't go DDW in light winds. But with a 120% headsail, no whisker pole, and a smaller main I suspect the diesel would be the best strategy.

    I think time has proven the sloop to be the way to go upwind. Off the wind on a long course a staysail may offer more sail options. Isn't there a flying sail you can go down wind of the cutter wire? I know nothing about it. I can say a Gozzard is a beautiful boat. Heavily built, like a Morgan38X but to a higher level inside and out. But judged by sailing ability in moderate conditions I'll take the Morgan hands down.

    Back to a Morgan w/removable forestay. I would suggest using it for its intended purpose. I believe having the right sized headsail for expected conditions is important, because you can only roll up a sail so far. And tacking with two headsails is a "process not an event".
    Having a strongly built hank on jib on the removable solent stay and two reefs in the main might make 40+mph wind fun? OK, that's my 2 cents.
     
  3. tyree

    tyree New Member

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    I'm in the process of finishing an inner forestay on my 1980 382. Thanks for adding to the wealth of information on this. Mine is mainly for heavy weather, long term upwind situations and the ability to work with less expensive Hank on sails without taking down the 130 genoa currently equipped. The previous owner had already installed a chainplate based on brewers blueprints on the forward bulkhead aft of the anchor locker. I was advised by the rigging company out of annapolis to attach the removable stay no more than 16" and no less than 8" below the uppers shrouds. I'd prefer not to have running back stays . Mine is dynemma and tensioned with a4:1 block and tackle using the windlass as a winch. I'll let you know how it works out in the next few weeks, heading north towards Newfoundland on July 4 from North Carolina. I also need to install garhaur tracks for inner jib cars. She doesn't point well enough for upwind work without and will need them for the inner stay anyway. Among other things....but that should be mostly down wind so not a priority just yet. . Any input from anyone else is appreciated!
     
  4. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    Dave!
    Thank you for your input. You have affirmed everything I thought and expected too. I think tacking would or could turn into a nightmare. And as I expected speed difference is not worth the trouble. I can see where the extra sail mail help a little on long passages. I have a storm sail and will hopefully never need to deploy it, but the stay is there and ready.
    Tyree, I will look forward to hearing of your passage and experiences too.
    Mitchell
     
  5. john english

    john english Member

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    FWIW:
    I installed a tang on the #1 bulkhead. The bulkhead was not glassed into the deck, just globs of sealant. I attached a formed ss bracket at the spreaders with no running backs. It is setup with a pelican hook baby stay. Have yet to use it except to try and keep the mast from pumping when the wind kicks up, however that did not work.
    Mitchell, I was hoping to catch up with you sometime this last season. In your commutes please consider a visit to Steamboat Slough. We are at anchor there until All Saints day.
     
  6. Mitchell S Allen

    Mitchell S Allen Member

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    John, It would be really nice to get to meet! Lately though there has been little time to even get to the boat. I am working hard to rectify that. I will be in touch, soon I hope!

    Thanks to all for all your input on this subject too.
    Mitchell
     
  7. terry_thatcher

    terry_thatcher Terence Thatcher

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2004
    Messages:
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    To all: Brewer specified running backs if you are taking you inner stay up part way between the spreaders and the mast top. He actually designed the boat so it could be a traditional cutter, but with a double sheet, loose footed staysail. I can't remember how or where the running backs were to be attached, but I think somewhere back by the beginning of the cockpit coamings. But there isn't a good bulkhead there, at least on the starboard side. Maybe one could use the outer genoa track, which is well anchored. Some of our members created cutters, including one of the originals from Maine, but I think he sold his Morgan. My alternative was to put a Solent Stay just aft of the jib stay. The chain plate goes down through the deck and has a beefy plate running along the outside of the bow. (if you search posts for solent stay, I posted pictures in June, 2017). The solent stay parallels the jib stay, so it is slightly below the tangs for the cap shrouds. I carry a hanked on working jib sheeted to the front end of my inner tracks, just abaft the aft lower chain plate. I can also hank on a storm jib on a wire leader above the working jib when it is lying on the deck, but I admit I have never had to use the storm jib (or the storm trysail). I cannot tack the genoa if the solent is in place, except winds above 15 and only with the risk of genoa damage. In my opinion, I would not use a working staysail or storm jib attached much below the cap shroud tangs without running backs. If I ever go ocean voyaging again, and I fear I may not, I would put a non-parallel solent stay just above or at the cap shrouds and put my working jib on a furler. Then I would have a removable inner stay, from the anchor locker bulkhead (which I have strongly glassed to the deck, a real mistake by Morgan not glassing there) for my storm jib, attached just below the cap shrouds Off shore, I am not short tacking, so rolling the genoa to tack is an acceptable compromise. Sorry for the lengthy post,but I have been thinking about this recently.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019

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